Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Damian Green and Stephen Mosley

Tuesday 8th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

T4. Does my right hon. Friend agree that some offences merit a greater punishment than just a slap on the wrist? What action is he taking to reform the use of cautions?

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green)]

I completely agree with what my hon. Friend says, and it is why my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor has announced that simple cautions will no longer be available for those cases that must be heard in a Crown Court and for a range of other offences, such as possession of a knife, supplying class A drugs and a range of sexual offences against children. That is exactly the kind of toughening of the system that the public want to see.

Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill

Debate between Damian Green and Stephen Mosley

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green]

The case is different for retired officers because they are essentially members of the public. The police cannot compel a member of the public to attend an interview as a witness. If the police feel that it is necessary to interview someone, they have to arrest them if they are unwilling to help voluntarily. It would be strange to give the IPCC powers that the police do not have. Having said that, my expectation is that—inevitably, in this case—there will be many retired officers, simply because of the length of time since Hillsborough, and that they may have useful evidence to give as witnesses. I hope and expect that many will wish to help.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

It is 23 years since Hillsborough and more than 20 years since most of the incidents that concern us occurred. Has the Minister any idea of how many officers from that time are still serving, and how many have retired or moved on?

[Damian Green]

The IPCC is still going through that information. The majority of officers may well have retired by now. This is a large undertaking and represents the biggest single investigation that the IPCC has ever done. It estimates that this will involve it investigating more than 2,400 officers. That is the overall quantum—the actual division is not yet clear. Obviously, many officers may have moved to other forces, and so on.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

The IPCC already has considerable powers to gather evidence, and it is not the only body involved in these investigations. My right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General is looking at whether to apply to reopen the inquest, so a coroner may be involved as well. There will therefore be thorough investigation, and I would be surprised and disappointed if any avenue of inquiry fell through the cracks. As much as can be done in the investigation is being done and will be done.

The overall point I would like to reassure the House about is that where individuals are suspected of misconduct or criminality, the IPCC has the powers it needs, so clause 1 is solely about its powers relating to witnesses. The power is essential if the IPCC investigation is to maintain public confidence and show that it has left no stone unturned—precisely the point that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) made. Information from witnesses will ensure that the IPCC investigation has a broad and thorough evidence base.

As we have discussed, the sanctions carry real weight for serving officers. It would not be appropriate to extend that to retired officers at this time. I should perhaps repeat that I fully expect the vast majority of retired officers called as witnesses to attend willingly. The importance of the matters being considered would cause any decent human being to provide whatever assistance they could. However, we want to ensure that the IPCC has the clear statutory basis to be able, independently and authoritatively, to require serving officers who may have useful information for the purposes of the investigation—because they witnessed events—to attend an interview. This power is needed urgently. The IPCC is currently scoping its investigation, but it wants to make rapid progress, and I know that many people inside and outside the House want that as well. It plans to start calling witnesses early in the new year, so this power needs to be available to it by then if the investigation is not to be held up.

Clause 2 will allow the IPCC to investigate matters that were previously subject to investigation by its predecessor, the Police Complaints Authority. This power will be exercised only when the IPCC is satisfied that the exceptional circumstances of a case justify its use. That is a high threshold. The IPCC has made it clear to me that, without this power, certain key events of the Hillsborough disaster would be out of scope of its investigation, as they have previously been considered by the PCA. In particular, the PCA investigated the decisions to open exit gate C at the Leppings Lane end of the Hillsborough ground and not to close the tunnel. Without this additional power, those matters would be out of scope of the IPCC investigation, although it is clear that those two decisions were critical to the events of the day.

So this power is needed, but it needs to be tightly drawn. We need to avoid the prospect of opening up all previous PCA investigations for review. That is why the power provides the IPCC with the discretion to reopen previously investigated cases when the matter meets the test of “exceptional circumstances”. We are confident that that terminology ensures that investigations relating to Hillsborough can be reopened, while also setting a high enough bar to prevent all PCA cases from being subject to another investigation.

[Stephen Mosley]

The IPCC states in its briefing note, to which the Minister has referred, that there should be powerful public interest involvement if it is to reopen a case. Does he agree that that should be the case?

[Damian Green]

I do. As I have said, it is for the IPCC to define “exceptional circumstances”, but clearly a powerful public interest would be one example. New evidence would potentially be another. The circumstances would be of that kind of order. In serious cases, a powerful public interest or the production of new evidence would enable the IPCC to say that the hurdle had been overcome.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Damian Green and Stephen Mosley

Monday 1st November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

11. How many immigrants entered the UK in the most recent period for which figures are available.

[The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)]

A total of 528,000 long-term migrants entered the UK in 2009, according to the most recent figures from the international passenger survey. Of these, 437,000 were non-UK nationals. IPS figures do not include asylum seekers, those who have arrived from Northern Ireland, and those who change their original intentions and therefore alter their length of stay. Final detailed figures for 2009 will be published on 25 November.

[Stephen Mosley]

I understand that my hon. Friend has recently been to Heathrow to see our front-line border controls in action. Will he give the House his assessment of the quality of our current systems to detect illegal entry into the UK at the first port of call?

[Damian Green]

We do have a comprehensive border protection framework, provided not just by the UK Border Agency but by the police and other agencies. The whole House will recognise that there will be an increase in passenger journeys and freight volume, and in the use of ever more sophisticated technologies by those who have malicious intent of either illegal immigration or, even worse, terrorism. That is one reason why we are setting up a new border police command within the new national crime agency, which will enhance our existing capacity to protect our borders.