United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Damian Green and Stephen Doughty

Monday 21st September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Gentleman. It is a sign of how fast moving these debates are that when I put into speak this evening I intended to support amendment 4 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), but before I got the chance to speak he had already indicated his intention of withdrawing it. He is doing so for the best of reasons. It was an excellent amendment, and I am glad that the Government have said that they agree with the thrust of it, so we can discuss a different set of points.

I know that many of my friends and colleagues abstained or voted against the Bill on Second Reading because of their doubts about part 5. I voted in favour because I think that the other 50 clauses are excellent and essential. The UK internal market is key to the future prosperity of people in all four countries of the United Kingdom, and the principles of market recognition and non-discrimination are at the heart of the future prosperity of our citizens in all parts of the UK.

However, I shared the doubts that many had about clauses 42, 43 and 45—the essential parts of part 5 of the Bill—and I was quite shocked to hear a Secretary of State say that the UK Government were planning to break the law, even in a specific and limited way. I had not ever expected to hear any Secretary of State say that, particularly not a Conservative one, so I am genuinely delighted that the Government have taken over my hon. Friend’s amendment. I think that is a wise and pragmatic thing for the Government to have done, and I am glad to have played my part in the talks that led to it.

It is important that the House recognise that this is more than just kicking the can down the road, if I can revive one of the great clichés of 2018 political debate. The Government amendment needs to be put in context with the public statement that the Government have made on gov.uk and, indeed, some of the words that the Minister uttered in opening this debate, when he made it clear that Parliament will be asked to support the use of the provisions in the clauses, and any similar subsequent provisions, only in the case of the EU being engaged in a material breach of its duties of good faith and, in the Government’s view, thereby undermining the fundamental purpose of the Northern Ireland protocol, and giving examples of what that would involve.

It seems to me that, despite the various attacks on the Bill that we have heard, the case is now straightforward. If the Government can convince the House that those on the other side in the negotiations have broken the rules, they can proceed. At that point, the Government have said, the dispute resolution procedures in the withdrawal agreement will come into force, which I think is another sign of legal action. But the key point is that the Government will have to make the case to this House that the EU has broken the agreement, not the UK. I am absolutely sure that that proposition will provoke a lively debate in this House, and indeed across the channel, but in the light of that debate we will then decide and we will make the law. If the Government cannot make the case that they are behaving properly, proportionately and legally, they will not convince the House. It seems to me that that is how law making should happen in this parliamentary democracy.

This is where I part company with my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), who made a passionate and powerful speech. She said that there was no difference between the Executive acting and Parliament acting, but I do not think that is true. I think that there is much greater force in action taken knowingly by the House of Commons, particularly in this context, when it is considering whether the Government are acting lawfully. Putting that power in the hands of the House of Commons is democratically proper and therefore legally proper.

The Northern Ireland clauses of the Bill have not had an easy passage, for good and serious reasons, but we are now in a much better place with them than we were a week ago, and I am now happy to support the Government on this and on the Bill more generally.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairpersonship, Dame Rosie. During the passage of the Bill, I have spoken extensively on the attacks on devolution, on the specific consequences for Northern Ireland and the Good Friday agreement, and indeed on the failure of the Prime Minister to deliver on his oven-ready Brexit deal.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) for his speech, but I also wish to pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), the former Prime Minister, for her comments. I have disagreed with her courteously on many issues over the years, but she is a person of principle, public service and integrity. I am afraid that I cannot say the same about some of the others, including our current Prime Minister, our rubber stamp of an Attorney General or our now-compliant Lord Chancellor, who once stood up for the rule of law during his time in practice in south Wales, but who now seems willing, in his own words, to “fudge it”. Indeed, there are the contradictions of our Foreign Secretary, who one minute is rightly arguing for international law and human rights, such as the Magnitsky sanctions and everything that goes with them, but the next minute is undermining them.

I am afraid that the damage that the Government’s statements have done to our reputation is incalculable. The right hon. Member for Maidenhead, who is no longer in her place, said

“frankly, my view is that to the outside world, it makes no difference whether a decision to break international law is taken by a Minister or by this Parliament; it is still a decision to break international law. This can only weaken the UK in the eyes of the world… It will lead to untold damage to the United Kingdom’s reputation.”

I agree with every word.

We have heard many powerful speeches, from Members across the House, expressing deep concern about where the Bill is taking us. I urge those who have stood up with principle and questioned the Government and put forward amendments to think again. The Prime Minister has repeatedly broken his word: he has broken it to the Taoiseach; he has broken it to our negotiating partners in the European Union; and he has broken it to Members on his own side repeatedly. Do not trust him.

A number of arguments have been made that suggest there are some sort of special exemptions in the Vienna convention and various international treaties. That is simply not the case. The House of Commons Library—neutral, respected and authoritative—has been very clear, saying that this is a far-reaching power to effectively allow the violation of

“any international obligation that may be engaged in the creation of regulations under clauses 42 and 43.”

It notes that this is not limited specifically to a violation of the Northern Ireland protocol but to

“all international obligations that may have legal implications in this context.”

It also makes it clear that, under the Vienna convention,

‘“A party may not invoke the provisions of its internal law as justification for its failure to perform a treaty.’ This means that this Bill cannot change the legally binding nature, in international law, of the UK’s international obligations.”

It also makes it crystal clear that

“parliamentary sovereignty does not change the binding nature of the UK’s international obligations.”

It is there in black and white.

Police and Crime Commissioners (Wales)

Debate between Damian Green and Stephen Doughty

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Westminster Hall

[Damian Green]

I will return to the departure of Carmel Napier; I said that I would deal with each individual issue that came up.

Regarding the point about Winston Roddick, I think there was some feeling in the intervention and response of the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) that a cloud hung over Mr Roddick in some way. There had been an allegation that he did not live in the area for which he had been elected. The Independent Police Complaints Commission found no evidence to support that allegation and therefore did not pass on the investigation file. Its report said:

“Considering the evidence provided by witnesses, voters and credit checks, the supporting mobile phone cell site analysis and the account provided by Mr Roddick, in my opinion, there is no evidence that a criminal offence may have been committed by Mr Roddick.”

I think we should put the matter to bed.

[Stephen Doughty]

Is the Minister aware of the complaint that has been made by four of the five candidates for the north Wales police and crime commissioner elections in recent days—both about the IPCC decision and about other matters that have come out as a result of that investigation? Notwithstanding what he has just said, will he look further into the matter?

[Damian Green]

The point about the IPCC—the clue is in its title—is that it is independent. It is not for me or any Minister to intervene in its investigations. It is independent. It looked into that complaint, and I have just read out its verdict.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Doughty]

The Minister has been generous in giving way. What is his relationship with the PCCs in Wales? What specific concerns have they raised with him to which he has been able to respond positively? Is he able to give any examples? For example, has he discussed police funding for south Wales and Cardiff as the capital city?

[Damian Green]

I regularly meet all the PCCs. I have met the PCCs in Wales as a group. They are, as all people are, energetic in pleading their own cause. I always listen as sympathetically as is sensible.

It is interesting to note the change in the amount of public correspondence that the PCCs receive. Some have reported a fiftyfold increase in public correspondence over the year to date compared with the old police authorities. The public are engaging with the PCCs, and the PCCs are becoming key local leaders across the whole criminal justice system.

I should deal with the case of Carmel Napier, because that was an important part of the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent’s speech. First, I should, as I am sure others who know her would want to, thank Carmel Napier for three decades of service to the police and for her leadership—not just in Gwent, but at a national level—on improving the police response to violence against women and girls.

It is clear under the legislation that it is for police and crime commissioners, not Ministers or Members of Parliament, to make decisions about appointing, suspending and removing chief constables. The process for a PCC to remove a chief constable is set out in legislation and, contrary to some of the points made earlier, includes strict safeguards. There is a police and crime panel, which has a wide remit to review or scrutinise decisions made by a PCC.

As has been mentioned, the PCC has the power to appoint a new chief constable, and has done so in Gwent this week. It is for the commissioner to determine who is best placed to lead the local constabulary. That is provided for in legislation. For the first time, there are confirmation hearings and proper public scrutiny of the event, which in the past happened behind closed doors and in secret.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Damian Green and Stephen Doughty

Monday 15th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

T9. What consideration are Ministers giving to additional resourcing for South Wales police in relation to the pressures on Cardiff as a capital city and the apparent discrepancy of upwards of £1 million with other capital cities across the UK?

[Damian Green]

I have heard these representations from various representative areas in Cardiff before, and as the hon. Gentleman will know, successive Governments have not thought that a particular grant should be made. I hope that he will join me in congratulating his police force in south Wales on the 5% fall in crime in the 12 months to December 2012.