Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Crispin Blunt Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Nick Herbert (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)]

Marriage is one of the most important institutions in our society. It concerns many of us that it is in decline, yet while many move away from marriage, one group turns towards it. Gay couples are now asking to be admitted. Here we have a section of society who are saying that they want to declare commitment and that they value stability, in the sight of the public and perhaps of God. We defenders of marriage should be gratefully opening the doors, yet the reaction of some has been to slam them shut.

It is said that gay people should accept civil partnerships—and no more—which confer most of the legal rights of a marriage. Thousands of people such as me have cause to be grateful for the courage of hon. Members who voted for that change. Entering a civil partnership was the most important thing I have done in my life. At that time, civil partnerships were opposed by the Churches, a significant proportion of the public and many hon. Members. Just eight years later, only a small minority of the public oppose civil partnerships and many hon. Members who voted against the change now say they support it. People choose marriage for a reason: they know that it means something special. Indeed, it is because marriage is different that many are opposing the change, so we cannot say that civil partnerships are the same or dismiss the debate as being about a name. How many married couples would like to be told that they were barred from matrimony and able only to take out a civil partnership?

The Church of England and the Catholic Church object to gay marriage. I disagree with them, but their religious freedom is surely among the greatest prizes in our democracy. I would not vote for this Bill unless I believed that it protected religious freedom. No faith group should be compelled by law to conduct a gay marriage against its will, and none will be, but religious freedom cuts both ways. Why should the law prevent liberal Jews, Quakers or Unitarian Churches from conducting gay marriages, as they wish to? With the proper safeguards for faith groups and individuals to exercise their consciences and to disagree, I do not believe that there are sufficient grounds to oppose a measure that allows gay marriages for others. No one has to enter a gay marriage. No one’s Church has to conduct a gay marriage. We simply have to agree that someone else can enter a gay marriage.

Are the marriages of millions of straight people about to be threatened because a few thousand gay people are permitted to join? What will they say? “Darling, our marriage is over: Sir Elton John has just got engaged to David Furnish”? I appreciate the sincerity with which many people oppose equal marriage and the serious points made. Ensuring that religious freedom is protected is a proper concern, but some of the objections do not bear scrutiny. We are told that because there will not be a legal definition of “consummation”, there is some terrible flaw in the Bill, but many loving heterosexual marriages exist without consummation. Are they invalid? For some, the objection is to homosexual conduct itself. Today that is a minority view—one thankfully in decline.

[Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend says that that attitude is in decline, but does he agree that although achieving legal equality is critical, it is—and only ever will be—part of the battle for acceptance?

[Nick Herbert]

I strongly agree with my hon. Friend.

I believe that many who do not share that view nevertheless have a principled concern that gay marriage would mean redefining the institution for everyone, yet Parliament has repeatedly done that. If marriage had not been redefined in 1836, there would be no civil marriages. If it had not been redefined in 1949, under-16-year-olds would still be able to get married. If it had not been redefined in 1969, we would not have today’s divorce laws. All those changes were opposed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

Some people say that the Bill is just about semantics, but semantics matter and words express the values of our society. The Bill is part of an astonishing and wonderful change that has taken place over the past 50 years and which has taken millions of us from criminalisation to legal equality and the enjoyment of self-worth and validation.

Those sentiments were certainly not apparent to me as a young man. I thought there was something wrong with me that had to be mastered, and for three decades I managed that struggle. The relief and happiness that comes from not having to do so any longer is due to the courage of others who fought for all the measures to advance equality over the past five decades that are the precursors to today’s Bill. My comments need therefore to be understood in the context of my enthusiasm and appreciation for those who have been prepared to lead on this issue, particularly the Prime Minister.

The final line of the Stonewall briefing for the debate reads:

“Stonewall therefore urges you to support this modest final legislative measure of equality for homosexual men and women in England and Wales”.

As presented, however, the Bill is not the final measure. While civil partnerships remain open only to same-sex couples, we will have retained an inequality that we will have to revisit. However much I have tried to explain to my constituents that we propose to legislate to deliver equality in the eyes of the state, protecting the beliefs of the religious, I do not believe that my constituents of faith understand the distinction between marriage in the eyes of the state and marriage in the eyes of their God.

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

I am a Catholic and religious freedoms are very important to me, as is my religion, but so too are equality and tolerance. I think that the Bill protects both those things. I came here to abstain, but I have listened to the debate like I have listened to no other, and it is now my intention not to abstain, but to support the Bill .

[Mr Blunt]

I am delighted to hear that intervention from my hon. Friend. I advocate that Members support the Bill and make those distinctions even clearer as the Bill passes through the House.

Much as the Bill will be another step forward; even unamended it gives us the vehicle properly to differentiate marriage in the eyes of the state from religious marriage. Simply put, we should be legislating for equal civil marriage and enabling religious organisations to carry out same-sex marriages if they wish to do so, and protecting them if they do not.

[Mr Newmark]

In supporting that point, I am sure my hon. Friend is aware of the book “Animal Farm”, in which all animals are equal but some are more equal than others, and is it not now time, in 21st-century Britain, that men should be allowed to marry men, women should be allowed to marry women, and men should be allowed to marry women in a civil marriage, not a religious marriage?

[Mr Blunt]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. We need to distinguish between civil marriage in the eyes of the state, which we are absolutely entitled to legislate for—indeed, there is a requirement on us to do so—and marriage in the eyes of people’s gods and religious beliefs, which is different.

I therefore advocate a situation such as in France, where one ceremony is required in the eyes of the state as well as another religious service, or, preferably, for religious organisations to be able to deliver marriage in the eyes of the state. Either of those positions would be better than continuing inequality, and I predict that if we do not change this Bill, Parliament will have to revisit the issue.

If this more fundamental change meets both the profound concerns expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) and a number of others and the test of permanent equality in the eyes of the state, it has much to recommend it. This Bill starts us down the right road, and I welcome it, but I urge the House to do a thorough job in Committee and on Report so as not to leave avoidable unfinished business.