Transport Funding: Wales and HS2

Debate between Craig Williams and Geraint Davies

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Westminster Hall

[Geraint Davies]

I completely agree with the right hon. Lady. Obviously, there are engineering and geographic issues here: Brunel originally had a straight line going through to Swansea, which would have taken half an hour—clearly, it used to loop around to pick up coal and that sort of thing. But one of the things about time, of course, is that if you increase frequency, you reduce average time. I appreciate that the Minister may have a different view on HS2, but I think there is too much focus on gaining a few extra minutes when what we really need from HS2 is greater capacity: bigger trains and thicker tracks, or whatever, not necessarily going faster. If I can go to Edinburgh in three hours, which is the same time it takes me to get to Swansea, do I really want to spend £100 billion or £200 billion to gain that extra bit of time?

In the meantime, although I know Members will talk about the benefits for Wales, it is sad that the current plan does not contain the direct link between Crewe and Manchester that would help Wales. As we know from our own line, after we zoom through to Bristol and then to Cardiff, there are a number of smaller stations, and the train has to stop and start and that sort of thing. If HS2 had lots and lots of different stations, it would have to stop all the time, so that has been ruled out, but that means that people have to travel a long way to get to HS2 and connect with it. If we do not have this Crewe connection—which we will not—the benefits for Wales will be very small, much less than for Scotland. My minimum ask is that we agree the Welsh Affairs Committee’s joint party report that said we should get the same share as Scotland, as opposed to more, because Scotland will benefit and we will lose out.

[Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I am sure it was an omission by my hon. Friend—I call him that because he is Welsh—that he did not mention the Cambrian line, which goes through the heart of mid-Wales to Birmingham. Will he reflect on the hub of Birmingham, and how that impacts on Wales and HS2? He has talked about Crewe, Manchester and Bristol, but mid-Wales looks east to west, and that Birmingham exchange is incredibly important to my constituents.

[Geraint Davies]

The hon. Member makes an important point. Overall, having a fast north-to-south link along the spine of the United Kingdom is good for the UK, and obviously the connections with Birmingham are important as well. My central point is that we are going to spend all this money, but Scotland will benefit much more than Wales: at minimum, we should get our fair share. My secondary point is that a lot of shovel-ready schemes are available, many of which have been devised by the Welsh Government and are ready to roll. If we are serious about being a Union, connecting the Union and building productivity, we should do just that.

The productivity situation, of course, is that unfortunately the gross value added in Wales is something like 70%.In other words, the average wage is about 70% of the UK average. Of course, productivity is generated by skills, technology, access to markets and investment, and the productivity of the actual line is low. Traditionally, the Department for Transport’s formula for investing money, in terms of its cost-benefit analysis, rewards previous investment. In the south-east of England people have expensive houses, and the train network is basically made to spoke into London more and more so that people can work in London and live further and further away, with HS2 and other connectivity. What happens, obviously, is that house prices are bid up, so no one can afford to live in London. People spend half their time going back and forth on a train, using a lot of carbon, and even if the line is electrified the electricity must be provided somehow or other, and the energy of the world is being consumed.

We should look at a more regional basis—a cluster basis—that took advantage of what we all know now about Zoom technology to allow people to work from home, and that sort of thing. Post-pandemic and post-Zoom technology, in our new environment, we should look at how best we can spend money on building localised economies more quickly, rather than having much more grandiose schemes for the long term. I am not speaking against those things as such, but it seems to me that we need to bring forward these other projects.

On net zero, the Minister will know that in Paris we tried to deliver a maximum 1.5° C increase, but the latest projections are that we are already at 1.2° C and that by 2025 we will be at 1.5° C. In fact, over Europe it is already 2° C and over the Arctic it is already 3° C, because there is more heat over land than over sea, which is why 8,500 tonnes of ice are melting every second that we speak today. So we are running out of time. I am not pretending that our schemes in Wales can save the world, but we all need to think about how to do what we can as soon as we can.

On the investment we have had in Wales, the Minister will know that, in terms of rail enhancements over the last couple of decades, we have had only about 1.5% of the UK’s share for 5% of the population and something like 11% of the rail track. In recent times, I ran a big campaign, as the MP for Swansea West since 2010, to get rail electrification to Swansea. David Cameron said he would deliver it, but then something happened to him and we didn’t get it. It was then argued, “Oh, well, there won’t be a very big increase in line speed,” but what we need of course is frequency and electrification so that we get a better service and a greener future. That is something we need to come back to.

We have left the EU, but 60% of exports from Wales are to the EU, so we need support. In terms of economic clusters, the Swansea, Cardiff and Bristol city regions combined have 3 million people. Similarly, Leeds and Manchester have 3 million people. However, Leeds and Manchester get something like eight services an hour, whereas we get about one. So the issue, which comes out of the Hendy review and other things, is that we should be connecting up—this is not being nationalist in any sense—with Bristol and the south-west to create economic prosperity for south Wales and the south-west. We need that investment in railways now.

I know that Lee Waters, the Transport Minister, and Judy James in the Welsh Assembly have come forward with detailed schemes about how to provide a south Wales metro in the south-east and central areas, and moving west. In essence, we are talking about an integrated transport system that would connect up light rail with electric buses, electrified trains and even hydrogen-powered trains in a way that means people can easily get on to public transport and are not kept waiting for hours because the service is unreliable and infrequent, so that they will then switch from car usage.

I would be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about that. It is all very well saying that people must go on public transport but if we are serious about net zero public transport needs to be close to home, frequent, affordable and comfortable. People will make that shift if the fiscal strategy is there. I urge the Minister to urge the Chancellor to address that issue, and I am happy to work with them on that with colleagues.

I know that other Members want to speak, so I will shortly wind up—I am sure you will be thankful to hear that, Sir Edward. However, the Minister may or may not be aware of the Blue Eden project coming out of Swansea. That innovative project combines tidal energy with floating eco-houses—believe it or not—solar energy and capturing batteries’ energy. My point is that there is a great appetite for creative innovation to deliver net zero in Swansea, Wales and beyond. Part of that must be the investment in rail infrastructure and public transport that are environmentally friendly, people friendly and affordable and in building productivity to help Britain to deliver net zero, higher productivity and better prosperity for all.

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[Craig Williams]

I agree to a point, but it is ironic that since the creation of devolution we have seen the public transport network in Wales deteriorate. I speak as somebody who served as a director of a bus company. The funding to our bus companies in Wales and to a lot of things in devolved areas has completely wiped away capacity in the nation of Wales. I would reflect on what our Welsh Parliament has done to those north-south connections.

I occasionally commute to my constituency office by steam train—the right hon. Lady has been on the line from Llanfair Caereinion to Welshpool—and it does not reflect the modern, dynamic Wales we want, but the heritage railways are incredibly important.

[Geraint Davies]

rose—

[Craig Williams]

I want to come back to my main point before the hon. Member intervenes. I will, of course, give way; he was very kind. The premise of this debate does not reflect mid Wales. It does not reflect north Wales, our priorities and the fact that we fall back on the spine of the UK railway network. I put it to Members that HS2 is as much about capacity as it is speed. In Montgomeryshire we look to London as much as we look to Cardiff, and anyone in my constituency who uses the UK network could see that it had huge capacity problems, pre covid. In Montgomeryshire, we can see the need to invest in that spine. We can see as businesses and constituents that we need additional capacity.

The hon. Member for Swansea West mentioned COP26 and the modal shift; if we are going to have those kind of shifts to public transport, we need the capacity. If we are going to have the capacity for mid-Wales, and the UK, we need new lines. I will give way if the hon. Member for Swansea West wants to intervene, and then the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd—why not two at once?

[Geraint Davies]

Because it is impermissible.

I have been arguing that we need more connectivity within Wales—in south Wales and north Wales—but also between south Wales and the south-west, between north Wales and Liverpool and Manchester, and mid-Wales and Birmingham. We need connectivity to connect the Union, but to do that we need our fair share of investment. That is my simple point; I am not trying to cut off Wales, and I am certainly not saying that south Wales is the be all and end all. However, it is the case, as my father found when he was in charge of economic development in the Welsh Office, that the connectivity between south Wales and the south-west and between north Wales and the north-west is greater than between north and south Wales.

[Craig Williams]

Before I give way to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, I will reflect on the fact that this debate is very premature. The Union connectivity review is yet to come out, and those are the exact issues that Peter Hendy has been looking at. The review is the vehicle for delivering this. There is a pressure, at times, that unless we give money to the Welsh Government we are not giving money to Wales—that is not true at all. The UK Government invest in Wales as well as the Welsh Government. We have two Governments that look after Wales; the UK Government, in terms of strategic assets such as transport links, and the Welsh Government in terms of devolved responsibilities. I was in Machynlleth, at the black bridge, with Peter Hendy some months ago; as the hon. Gentleman and I have neighbouring constituencies, we know that that was a multi-million pound investment to sort out the Cambrian line by Network Rail and the UK Government. That should be the UK Government’s role, and I expect that after the publication of the Union connectivity review there will be a significant investment into Wales.

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[Craig Williams]

I will remember that for the future, Sir Edward. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) makes an incredibly important point, and it is one that I hope the Union connectivity review does look into. While I am not suggesting a bridge or a tunnel from Holyhead over to Northern Ireland or the Republic, I am suggesting that we need to look at the importance of Holyhead as a UK strategic port, and some better way of connecting into the UK rail network. That is exactly where I want to see the investment from the UK Government going—into our Welsh railway network. The north Wales coast line is an incredibly important strategic railway for the whole of the United Kingdom, not just Wales. I am delighted that that remains—and long may it—the competence of the UK Government, because that is the only way we will see real investment.

I return to the opening speech by the hon. Member for Swansea West and the south Wales orientation of Welsh Labour, be it at parliamentary level or at that of the Welsh Government. On behalf of my constituents, I feel that especially with the Cambrian line. I know from north Wales Members that there is a strong feeling in communities of neglect by the Welsh Government and a complete orientation to Cardiff and south Wales.

[Geraint Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Craig Williams]

I said I would not give way anymore. I am sure the hon. Gentleman can use his closing remarks to come back on me. Before I sit down, I would reflect again on the importance of looking east to west in terms of connectivity, and the importance of building additional capacity into our UK network. On behalf of my constituents, I welcome the Birmingham hub. I know that, for north Wales Members, the Crewe interchange, and how it builds into the north Wales coastline, will be incredibly important.

Although I recognise the passion and the sometimes cheeky ask for additional money, I expect that mid-Wales will require additional investment in its railway network from the UK Government, through the Union Connectivity Review. I hope that there is no push by anybody suggesting that the easiest way to solve any problem in Wales is to give more money, either through Barnett or directly to the Welsh Government. If we are going to level up and make a huge investment in our network in Wales, that has to come from the UK Government. Otherwise, as I alluded to, I fear it will be a complete south Wales monopoly on developments.