European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 18th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

What I have to say may affect the decision as to whether or not to move it. My question is specifically about the wording of the amendment, which says—

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord should be allowed to develop his arguments. The amendment is not on the table yet—it has not been put by the Speaker. So I ask the noble Lord, out of courtesy, to let the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, finish speaking.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

Perhaps I may continue. I recall no debate at all at the time of the referendum on a customs union. The country voted narrowly to leave the European Union, but no one can argue that it voted knowingly to leave the customs union with the European Union.

The red line was laid down in October 2016 in the “citizens of nowhere” speech. One hears that there had not been much discussion in the Government; there certainly had been no discussion with Parliament. One wonders to what extent the economic consequences of the decision on customs union had been fully assessed and analysed within the Government; I have no idea. Other red lines have since been sensibly blurred; in my view, it is time to blur this one.

The House knows that I was and remain a keen remainer. I believe that, when a deal is struck, the country should be given a chance to say whether it is what it wants. That would be fair, but it is nevertheless our duty to help improve the deal and see how it could be made better. If in the end we do leave, it should be in a way that limits the damage to the country’s well-being and to the future of our children. That is why I believe that it makes sense for the Government to be asked to explore customs union. I beg to move.

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So I support the amendment with some enthusiasm and I repeat what my noble friend Lord Hailsham said in Committee: namely, that there are times in one’s political career when what is alleged to be party loyalty comes way behind trying to stand up for the national interest. I intend to do that on this amendment and elsewhere on Report, and in doing that I think I will be repeating what I would have been able to say with the full support of my party for most of the time I have been a member of it.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I hope that noble Lords will forgive my confusion about a technical matter. The amendment states:

“Page 1, line 2, at end insert”.


However, line 2 on page 1 comes immediately after,

“The European Communities Act 1972 is repealed on exit day”.


Can noble Lords make clear what exactly we are debating? The amendment states:

“Subsection (2) applies if, and only if”.


The amendment does not seem to fit the Bill.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 1, moved so persuasively by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and Amendment 4. I want to speak briefly to Amendments 2 and 5 in my name, which are coupled with them and essentially seek the same goal.

Noble Lords may remember that in Committee I moved the very first amendment on the issue of maintaining a customs union with the EU after our membership ceases. We had an excellent debate at that stage so I will not repeat the detailed arguments, save to remind the House of one central point: having tariff-free trade in goods with the European Union and the 56 countries with which the European Union has an agreement is fundamentally important—not only to Wales but throughout the UK—to our manufacturers and farmers. It also opens the door to resolving the Irish border question, as has been said.

I accept—reluctantly—that we are leaving the European Union. That is not the issue in this debate. The question is how we leave without weakening or severing our vital trade links. By passing either of these amendments, we give MPs an opportunity to return to this central issue. Without such an amendment, they will be unable to do so. They need such a facility because so much has changed in the time that has elapsed since they passed this Bill last year. We must enable them to fine-tune the Bill to meet the requirements of exporters, manufacturers and farmers. MPs will have the last word, and rightly so, but by passing either amendment we give them the opportunity to endorse a better Bill that is fit for purpose and more acceptable to those whom it affects. I urge colleagues on all sides to unite in passing such an amendment and I urge the Government to accept the outcome.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howard of Lympne]

I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way—

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

It is Report.

[Lord Howard of Lympne]

It is a question, and my noble friend has not finished.

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[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

I must insist—

[The Countess of Mar]

Noble Lords may get up only once, and the noble Lord has already done so.

[Lord Tomlinson (Lab)]

The noble Countess has got up twice.

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[Noble Lords]

Minister!

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, with all courtesy to the noble Lord, perhaps he would get the feeling of the House, which is to have the Minister stand on his feet.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, I thought this amendment was about Parliament having a say. It is unreasonable not to allow a noble Lord who gave way to the noble Baroness opposite to have a say, so we should hear him.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Report: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 2nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

Order!

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, I remind the noble Lord that he has already spoken.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

The noble Lord speaking for the Opposition held the office of Secretary of State for Northern Ireland with distinction. He knows that during all that time he never shared joint authority. Will he comment on why an amendment may be carried by a number of his noble friends that will, for the first time, enshrine in legislation—this is the proposal—that we change the policy, which has been agreed between parties during all these years, that we do not have joint authority in Northern Ireland?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Countess of Mar Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 16th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Framlingham]

That is a chance I will have to take. I do not agree with the noble Lord. I think that I am speaking up for this House, for this country and for what we are trying to do.

I repeat: to set ourselves up in such a disreputable way, as guardians of wisdom and the common good, in so many of the amendments that we have passed, simply in an attempt to wreck the Bill and thwart the will of the people, is both false and dangerous.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

I wonder whether the noble Lord would kindly pay attention to the amendment on the Order Paper that was just moved by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs.

[Lord Framlingham]

I am addressing the amendment and other amendments too.

The House has repeatedly been warned of the recklessness of the course it has taken. The noble Lords, Lord Grocott and Lord Howarth, from the Labour Benches, and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, from this side of the House, have made excellent contributions, showing not only their understanding of the workings of Parliament but the damage that we have been doing to our reputation and the dangers we have created for the future of your Lordships’ House. They have been derided and scoffed at—not because they were wrong, but because every word they said was true. The scoffers knew this in their hearts and simply could not bear to listen to the truth.

It is not often in life that one is given a second chance to correct a big mistake—a folly of historic proportions—but we will be given one and I sincerely hope that we will take it. When the Bill returns to this House from the Commons, if we all accept, in as healing a way as possible, that whatever side we have been on and however we have behaved, our job is done and we should no longer seek to impose our will on the parliamentary process, perhaps not too much lasting damage will have been done to your Lordships’ House. Should the principal remain protagonists continue to pursue controversy, they will serve only to deepen the divisions in this House.

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[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords—

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, may I remind the noble Lord that procedure at Third Reading is the same as for Report, and the noble Lord has already spoken? If he wishes to ask a question, he can ask for the leave of the House beforehand.

[Lord Dykes]

I was going on to emphasise, once again, the ecumenical nature of this whole process, and the tribute paid by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and others to what the Government have done in response. I am grateful to the briefing note that was given by the Repeal Bill Alliance, which represents so many widespread different bodies, that it is necessary to get the guarantee and the certainty in the text of the Bill. I agree with the alliance when it says:

“The original drafting of the bill leaves gaps in environmental protections by excluding vital environmental principles such as the ‘polluter pays’ and ‘precautionary principles’ as well as EU directives that include environmental safeguards and obligations”.


Is it a preposterous idea that the Lords should propose serious amendments to a Bill and send them to the Commons, asking it to consider them, even on Third Reading? I think that is quite a normal part of the process of the parliamentary interchange between the Houses. It is up to the Commons to decide how to react. The reality, as we know, is that the Commons does not react in the open and free way that it would if it were on the basis of free votes in all parts of the House. Because of the magic mechanism of the only constitutional safeguard we have—the three-line Whip—the Conservative MPs would end up either having to do that or to become rebels themselves, which is always a difficult thing.

So when the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, said that he was representing wider interests, I disagree. He was representing the salient interest of the Brexit lobby of the divided and broken Conservative Party in the Commons. Therefore, it is very important for us to remember—I quote from the press on 10 May:

“The cliché that the war is over because the eurosceptics have won is wrong. Brexit has created another divide between those evangelical about the UK going it alone and those that know such visions are fantastical. Every now and again May indicates she is in the latter group. There are some like John Major who is urgently aware from his experience that either way the UK is heading for the cliff’s edge”.


That means that the logic of what the Lords does is justified; it is nothing to do with party politics.

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[Lord Framlingham]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. The point that I am making—

[The Countess of Mar]

The noble Lord has not asked for the leave of the House.

[Lord Framlingham]

With the leave of the House, may I ask a question?

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[Baroness Goldie]

I have no specific information about that. The amendments are intended to help the Welsh Assembly and, indeed, assist any Government in the Welsh Assembly by ensuring that we avoid confusion and greatly improve clarity. I hope that the noble Lord will accept the good faith of the Government in trying to do everything possible to assist the devolved settlement in Wales. With that clarification, I beg to move Amendments 3, 4, 5 and 6.

[The Countess of Mar]

The noble Baroness can move only Amendment 3 at this stage.

Amendment 3 agreed.