Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Cheryl Gillan and Lord Murphy of Torfaen

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Murphy]

No, I do not. I accept, though, that there are people in my own party who may agree with some of the things that I think the Conservative party is guilty of—that is, not being awfully worried if Scotland and Wales left the Union. I have been thinking that for over a year now.

The New Statesman published a very good editorial last week, which finished with this:

“For the Tory right, an independent England—economically liberal, fiscally conservative, Eurosceptic, Atlanticist—is an attractive prospect. The United Kingdom, one of the most successful multiracial, multi-faith, multinational states the world has ever known, remains a cause worth fighting for. Yet, over the past weeks, fixated by the EU, the Conservative and Unionist Party seemed less aware of this than ever.”

The Trojan horse is not Welsh nationalism, but the English nationalism of the Conservative and former Unionist party.

[Mrs Gillan]

I am enjoying the right hon. Gentleman’s contribution and I know that his words will be passed on to the Silk commission. I assure him that I remain a firm Unionist, not the sort of Tory that he describes.

On a point of information for him on the borrowing powers, the Welsh Government have the ability to borrow under the powers that they inherited from the Welsh Development Agency. The bilateral talks on those borrowing powers are about how that borrowing could be used more effectively. What the Silk commission has been entrusted with is examining new borrowing powers in the context of the package of tax and borrowing powers. I hope that that clarifies the position on borrowing, which I know has been the subject of some speculation.

[Paul Murphy]

Indeed; I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for telling the House that. In a sense, it confirms my view that there is confusion about what is happening with regard to Barnett and to borrowing. There appear to be simultaneous discussions on borrowing and on what happens to Barnett on the one hand, and the Silk Commission on the other, whose job it is to look at financial responsibility as well. I am saying, “Don’t stop the talks.” It is obvious that Governments have to talk to each other, particularly as we live in difficult times, but I am also saying—she has clarified the position with regard to borrowing—that it is important for that to be part of the Silk commission’s remit.

Although I welcome the Silk commission, I warn the people of Wales that the position is not as simple as it might seem on the surface. I believe that the Secretary of State is generally in favour of the Union, but—judging by the actions that have been taken in the House of Commons over the past year or so—I do not believe that that is true of much of the rest of her party. Those of us who are genuinely in favour of the Union want the Silk commission to be about helping the people of Wales ultimately to have a better deal from the United Kingdom.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Cheryl Gillan and Lord Murphy of Torfaen

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

1. What recent discussions she has had with the First Minister on the remit of a commission on devolution and funding for Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

The Government are committed to a Calman-like process for Wales and will be putting forward proposals. I have discussed the issue with the First Minister, and will be continuing to have discussions with relevant colleagues and of course the First Minister.

[Paul Murphy]

The Secretary of State will know that the Northern Ireland Executive can borrow money and the Scottish Government will soon be able to borrow money, but the Welsh Government cannot. With the cutback in capital spending on schools and hospitals, is it not now time for the right hon. Lady to enter into immediate negotiations with the Welsh Government and the First Minister so that the Welsh Government can also borrow money?

[Mrs Gillan]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that question. He is effectively asking why Wales is the only home nation without borrowing powers. It is fair to say that the new borrowing powers for Scottish Ministers, which are set out in the Scotland Bill, will not take effect until 2015-16, which is in line with our commitment not to change the system until stabilisation of public finances. May I make it clear that we are not ruling borrowing powers for the Welsh Government in or out at this stage.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Cheryl Gillan and Lord Murphy of Torfaen

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

May I ask the Secretary of State to take great care when she deals with these issues? As she knows, there is really no appetite in Wales for tax-varying or tax-raising powers—the resource base is not there—and even if there were, we would have to have a referendum in Wales for such powers, as happened in Scotland.

[Mrs Gillan]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, because I always remember sitting and listening to him give evidence to, I believe, a House of Lords Committee looking at the Barnett formula. He said that there was no case for reviewing it because it had served well. The fact that the last Government repeatedly ruled out reforming the Barnett formula means that any reforms must be looked at carefully. He is quite right that giving tax-raising powers would involve another referendum, which is something that this Government would look at carefully, because I am not sure whether Wales has an appetite at the moment for another referendum.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Cheryl Gillan and Lord Murphy of Torfaen

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Gillan]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. When we established the coalition Government, we committed in the coalition agreement to establishing a Calman-like process for the Assembly. I will announce further details on that in the coming months.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has just said that there will be a commission on the so-called West Lothian question. Does she personally believe that Welsh Members of Parliament should have fewer voting rights in this place, particularly bearing in mind that her Government have cut the number of Welsh MPs by 25%?

[Mrs Gillan]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, it is important that every vote is of an equal weight in this country. I am sure he would not want me to revisit arguments that have been well made and exhausted in the House.

When the commission is established, it will need to take into account the Government’s proposals for House of Lords reform, the changes to the way in which this House does business and the changes to the devolution settlement in considering potential solutions to the West Lothian question.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Cheryl Gillan and Lord Murphy of Torfaen

Wednesday 23rd June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Gillan]

No work was done in the Department on the question prior to the general election. I am pleased to tell the House, however, that the project board has produced a question and a preceding statement for the referendum on law-making powers for the National Assembly for Wales, and I am sending it today to the Electoral Commission for the 10 weeks that it needs to carry out its work in proving that question. In the short time I have been in the office, I think I have achieved more than my predecessor did in the time from 17 February, when notice was given to him that a referendum was required.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

May I congratulate the right hon. Lady on her new job? Despite what the London commentariat say, it is a very important job indeed. She will know that, during any referendum, the question of Members of Parliament from Wales will be an issue. Will she confirm that she agrees with her previous statement that there should be 40 Welsh MPs?

[Mrs Gillan]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his warm welcome. When I dealt with him from the other side of the Dispatch Box, I always found that his courtesy was unfailing. He refers to the potential boundary changes and the reduction of the number of MPs—I am sure that no one outside the House will be arguing for more highly paid politicians. However, I take very seriously the representation of Wales in the House, and nothing will be done in reducing the number of MPs that will disproportionately affect the share of voice that Wales has in the House and at Government levels.