Unaccompanied Children (Greece and Italy)

Debate between Charlie Elphicke and Alison McGovern

Thursday 23rd February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question, which, again, the Minister must answer today.

It is deeply depressing to start a debate that was supposed to focus on how to build on the Dubs amendment by having to fight the same fight over again. The debate is about how we can do more for the many unaccompanied child refugees stuck in Greece and Italy. The Minister will talk about the fantastic support that this country offers refugee camps in the middle east and north Africa, how much we spend and how we do not want people to attempt the perilous journey across the sea. I will wholeheartedly agree with him. I am proud of our work overseas. It is right that we do everything possible to look after people in the region and keep them out of the hands of people traffickers who exploit their desperation. Nobody wants people, least of all children, to board those boats and make that crossing. However, we must move beyond those generalities. We are talking about desperate individuals, and hundreds of children do board those boats and end up in Greece and Italy. When they arrive, they remain vulnerable to the same traffickers who put them on the boats in the first place. They are exploited physically and often sexually. They are made to see and endure things that no child should ever have to. Unaccompanied children are the most at risk, and as the conflict continues unabated in Syria and parts of Africa, more children arrive in Europe without an adult to look after them.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

The hon. Lady is making a passionate case for her view. I represent Dover, and across the channel we had the Calais jungle, which was the biggest migrant magnet, where people were condemned to live in squalor. They were there in the hope of getting into Britain. The problem is that taking people in from Europe simply increases the pull of the migrant magnet. We know that because we are on the frontline.

[Alison McGovern]

As a Member of Parliament who also represents a port area of our country, I pay tribute to all those who work to keep our ports and our borders safe. I will come to the hon. Gentleman’s argument about a pull factor in a moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alison McGovern]

If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that safety is a pull factor, I agree with him. If he is suggesting that not starving is a pull factor, I agree with him. If he is suggesting that escaping the bombs dropping on a child’s head is a pull factor, I entirely agree with him.

This debate will continue. I think it right for us to have the debate out in the open, and Members who disagree with me will have a chance to make their case, too.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Alison McGovern]

I will not, because I need to end my speech now.

As I was saying, many of these children are orphans who have no parents with whom they can be reunited. However, the Government are effectively saying that a child in a refugee camp in north Africa who has a grandparent in the UK is not eligible, but if that child got on a boat and went to Italy, he or she would be. That is madness. Will the Minister agree to think again and allow children in the region to apply under Dublin III to be reunited with their extended families in the UK?

As the Minister has heard from Members on both sides of the House, there are many points that he must address in his speech. In respect of Dublin III, will he commit himself to improving the system in Greece and Italy? Will he send more staff, speed up the processing of applications and work with the agencies in those countries to identify eligible children? Will he commit himself to allowing Dublin transfers from the region to extended families in the UK? In respect of Dubs, will he show us the figures on local authority capacity? Will he at least agree to monitor capacity and increase the numbers where possible? Will he, once and for all, drop the pretence that the main factor that is dragging children on to those boats is our immigration system, rather than war, poverty and famine?

I started by saying that this was not a party-political issue, and I stand by that. This is about British values, which we all share, and our desire to honour those values. Across Europe and the world, people are questioning whether we mean what we say when we talk about Britain as a welcoming, open, tolerant and decent country. It is up to us to show that we are who we say we are, that we will live up to the legacy of our past and that we will not turn away from the suffering and desperation of children on our own doorsteps who need our help.

Zero-hours Contracts

Debate between Charlie Elphicke and Alison McGovern

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

I shall begin my contribution by continuing to quote from some of the people who kindly gave their view to the report that I and two colleagues undertook earlier this year. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), whose idea it was that we do that. He was very insightful in encouraging me and my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) in our campaigning on the issue.

The people who shared their experience with us were brave to do so and I want their words to be heard in the House. The example that I gave when I intervened earlier shows the impact of zero-hours contracts on ordinary members of the work force. That person said:

“It has been very difficult as I want to move on with my life but can’t as I don’t know when and if I will be next out of work so this stops me from committing into anything financial like moving out or furthering my education more as I do not know if I will be in long term work as I am always waiting for them words that I am now a permanent employee. This has not only brought stress on myself but people that are nearest to me as it tends to be them that I vent my frustration to”.

That shows not only the economic impacts, but the social and emotional impacts of those contracts.

Somebody else told us that it was

“Awful. It’s depressing and demoralising. I feel I have no rights and constantly question ‘why am I even bothering to work?’ Some weeks it would be more beneficial for me to sign onto job seeker’s allowance”.

I am sure that is not what this Government want. It is certainly not what those of us on the Opposition Benches who believe in the dignity of work want to see, but I am guessing that it is not even what this Government want—people who feel that it might be better for them just to claim benefits.

[Charlie Elphicke]

The hon. Lady makes a very powerful speech. Does she welcome the fact that the Business Secretary held a review over the summer and is conducting a consultation? Does she, like the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly), regret that more was not done in past times?

[Alison McGovern]

My grandfather, who was a great trade union rep, always told me: “When you go in and see the boss, never say you’ve done nothing; always say you’ve not done enough.” I think my hon. Friend has learned that lesson.

The big problem is the one that I raised earlier with the Secretary of State, which is that the Government seem to be all over the shop with the number of people affected and what is really going on. My only regret is that they did not take the opportunity of the summer to clear the matter up properly. We will engage with the Government and move forward to try to get a resolution, especially on the care sector, which is very important to me. I shall come on to that.

First, I want to say something about values. Although the economics are extremely important, so are the values. Some of the worst effects of zero-hours contracts are felt not where people have a high level of skills, but where people have little other option. In the care sector, for example, workers often have a low level of skills and are often women, possibly later in their career, who already have little power in the workplace. When zero-hours contracts are used in place of proper management, they are left in a terribly vulnerable position. It leaves them, in effect, begging for work. To me the indignity of begging is not tolerable. It is not tolerable for people to beg on the street and it is not tolerable for people to beg for work. That is what is wrong with zero-hours contracts. They risk far too much power being put on one side of the table in discussion of the contract of employment. This is an economic issue, of course, but it is a question of how we want to live together and relate to each other in society.

We are storing up some serious economic problems with zero-hours contracts. In the short term they involve a cost because people’s income is likely to be reduced as a result of their underemployment. If they are wasting time constantly trying to get more hours, as we heard in our survey, people have no time left to find another job, which might be a better job and might improve their prospects, which would, in turn, improve their and their family’s capacity to spend money and keep our economy going. Also, the insecurity that they are suffering means that in the short term they cannot commit or make spending choices that would otherwise be helpful.

By the way, we heard examples of people who were constantly told that they were going to get more hours than they did. That short-term impact of feeling that they would have money coming in and then finding that they did not has a massive knock-on effect on the rest of our economy, but it does not affect the whole economy equally or in the same way. The parts of the country with a lower skills base are much more likely to suffer from this, so zero-hours contracts feed into the imbalanced economy that we already have.

There are long-term economic effects from such insecurity. I quoted earlier from one of the people in our report speaking about their inability to invest in themselves, for example by going back to school, college or university and making a long-term choice to improve their prospects, which they felt unable to do because they did not know what was going on at work. Similarly, people were unable to get a mortgage or decide to make a long-term investment in their housing, which will have a knock-on impact. A further effect is the impact on the skills base of our country.

I am aware that in the case of students, who have been mentioned as an example, zero-hours contracts are a fair arrangement. There is no power imbalance and that is fine. I am also aware that for some people on zero-hours contracts there is an investment in their skills. But do the Government think it is more or less likely that employers in this country would invest in the skills of people who had permanent, stable contracts or those whom they had put on zero-hours contracts? I think that the skills base in particular parts of the country will inevitably diminish as a result of this so-called flexibility in the labour market.

Zero-hours contracts clearly do not affect every part of the country in the same way. The Merseyside city region has developed well over recent years—against expectations, I think—and we did much better through the recession than anyone thought we would. I am extremely proud that the Liverpool city region is doing well—no one will catch me running it down. However, the biggest barrier to Merseyside’s development is our people’s level of skills. We cannot afford to have employers who are not committed to investing in our people, not just because it is bad for our people today and they do not get the opportunity to improve themselves, but because it stores up problems. If the Government are not prepared to take this matter seriously because of concerns about the amount of money people will have in their pockets, I hope that they will take seriously the long-term impact such contracts have on the prospects for a balanced economy. I wanted to ask the Secretary of State to include the impact on skills in his review and consultation. He is no longer here, but I am sure that the Minister will pass on the request.

What is the solution? I am sure that it will come as no great shock to the House to learn that I am extremely supportive of the Labour policies outlined in the motion. I am incredibly pleased that the leader of my party has chosen to take such a stand on this issue. It is not fair to say that the previous Labour Government did not act to protect vulnerable people in the work force. One of our greatest achievements was the national minimum wage. The regulations that implement it contain all kinds of requirements to ensure that people earn a decent amount of money. That is at the heart of this debate. I think that we ought to be extremely proud of that institution that protects people in our country.

However, it is right that we should go further, and it is absolutely right that we should crack down on exclusivity and look at the people who work regular hours but whose employers are not prepared to commit and give them a proper contract. In the short term, the report that colleagues and I produced suggests a code of practice, and that has been the first stage in our discussions with employers and others. I think that we can get on with that. If there are employers who want to discuss that with us, as there are in Merseyside, we should do so.

I also want briefly to pay tribute to Unison for its work as a trade union and for its ethical care charter. It is a shame that the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) did not congratulate Southwark council—I speak with a slight interest, as I am a former deputy leader of the Southwark Labour group—on adopting the stance that Unison did a good job in articulating what is needed in the care sector. We know that in that sector zero-hours contracts are wrapped up in a whole other agenda about ensuring that people have proper dignity and respect. I hope that Ministers will focus their review on what is going on in the care sector. There might be whole swathes of the economy where there are fewer problems, but there most certainly are problems in the care sector, and I hope that Ministers will pay attention to that.

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Charlie Elphicke and Alison McGovern

Thursday 19th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern]

I shall return to my constituents and tell them that a moment of cross-party agreement broke out over the problem that the hon. Gentleman and I agree exists, where we must rightly consider the state pension age, but that that decision will affect certain people in a completely different way from that suggested by any average figure. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to respond to his second point by saying that I will remark later on whom the proposals affect and their relative position.

Before making my substantive point about how the economy clusters and how these proposals will affect us, I want to answer the point about inflation made by the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), who has unfortunately just left the Chamber. She sought to make a case against my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), saying that the Government were doing pensioners a great service by increasing their pension on inflation, which has come about because of events beyond our shores, and the Government are just trying to respond to the oil price, and so on. I have no doubt that world events have had an impact on inflation in this country. Thankfully, I do not have to work out which events have an impact on inflation and report that to the Chancellor. That is the job of the Governor of the Bank of England. I have read the Governor’s letters on inflation and he remarks on the impact of the Government’s VAT rise on inflation. If the hon. Lady were here, I would tell her that it is not entirely true to say that the inflation that we face that has caused the Government to be so proud of their cost of living rise for pensioners is entirely beyond our control. It is in part at least down to the Government’s action.

I want now to think about the cumulative impact of this policy and a couple of others on the part of the world that I represent, but also on similar local economies. Some of the Government’s decisions have resulted in a kind of conflagration that means that particular localities face a really difficult economic future.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

The hon. Lady makes much of the fact that age and longevity vary quite a lot throughout the country. She has also made a connection between shorter life span and deprivation. How many of her constituents with a short or shorter than average life span will be affected adversely by the age-related allowance, because it is over £10,000?

[Alison McGovern]

The hon. Gentleman seems to be saying that if you are poor enough to have a short life span, you are not rich enough to be affected by the change, which is an interesting hypothesis. It is a testable proposition, but it seems entirely wide of the mark.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alison McGovern]

I am so pleased that the hon. Gentleman chose to mention the north-south divide, because it gives me the opportunity to discuss a concept that trips off the tongue so easily but is actually extremely unhelpful in tackling the kind of local economic development that I am asking Treasury Ministers to consider when making decisions. He will know as well as I do that although the north-west, which we both represent, has significant deprivation, it also has some pretty wealthy areas—the Chancellor himself has the honour of representing one such area. The north-south divide, as a concept, masks a whole lot of other inequalities. Again, I mention the inequalities in London. It cannot be said that there is a simple, straightforward north-south divide in this country affecting every locality in the same way; we should have a much more fine-grained analysis. There are places in the north that are extremely successful and places in the south that really need help.

Before I try the patience of the Chair any further, I will return to the importance of age-related allowances.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Alison McGovern]

I will give way, and I feel sure that the hon. Gentleman will say what he thinks the Government ought to do to ensure that the cumulative impact of their policies, and their policy on age-related allowances specifically, does not hold back local economic development in parts of Wirral.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way again; she is being extraordinarily generous in taking interventions. She is making a characteristically extraordinarily thoughtful speech. It is a matter of great concern that over the past decade and a half, the gap between the least well-off and the richest has grown. There is now more inequality. Will it not help to reduce the inequality between pensioners to increase the basic state pension by the biggest amount ever—£5.30, which is a big jump—and to ensure that the richest pensioners do not get such a high benefit, but do not lose out either, by capping the allowance?

[Alison McGovern]

That was a long intervention. The hon. Gentleman said that inequality grew under the previous Government. I point him to analysis done, if I recall correctly, by the Institute for Fiscal Studies at the time of the 2010 general election, which showed that the incomes of the lowest on the income scale increased significantly under the previous Government. We can have a discussion about how one deals with the inequality that is created when the incomes of people who earn a great deal of money rise, but I fear that it would not be within the scope of this debate. I am sure that we will discuss that on another occasion.

I will conclude my remarks by talking about the squeezed middle, because it is people on what one would think of as middle incomes who are affected by age-related allowances. In its frequently asked questions section on this policy, the BBC states that

“it is a ‘middle-income’ range of 40% of pensioners who will not get what they might have expected from the tax system.”

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Charlie Elphicke and Alison McGovern

Wednesday 18th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke]

The hon. Gentleman makes that assertion. Let us consider the detail of what the OBR says, leaving aside forestalling. Page 108 of its report, which considers this matter in great detail, states:

“These steps might include labour supply responses (e.g. working less”—

working less hard, basically—

“taking a lower paid job, retiring early, or leaving the country)”.

As we know, many people have given up, upped sticks and gone—driven away by the anti-business, anti-aspiration policies of the Labour party.

[Alison McGovern]

Will the hon. Gentleman tell us exactly how many people have left the country? If so, what is his source for that statistic?

[Charlie Elphicke]

I am simply reporting what the OBR has said. I will not pretend that I am an expert on immigration to and emigration from this country. I might represent Dover but that does not mean I count everyone in and out. I have to trust the OBR. Having said that, in the past decade my constituents have complained that an awful lot of people seem to have come in. They are very upset about that and think there could have been more border security. But that is not the key point of this debate.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Charlie Elphicke and Alison McGovern

Monday 11th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern]

We have competitive corporation tax. The hon. Gentleman is right that we must play on the global stage. Many of the companies in my constituency that I am talking about play on the global stage. I have seen the difference that other countries have made in working with business to ensure that they invest in their technology, which keeps them here for the long term. Let us consider, for example, the historical difference in the German automotive industry, where the Government did just that. We came very late as a country to that approach—to that industrial activism and to that investment in high-tech industry to secure employment for the long term.

I ask Ministers to consider their role. When we are dealing with global companies, the Government must always discuss with them the changes in their industry and what the next move needs to be in investment. I do not feel that an across-the-board corporation tax that hands profits back without any discussion about what is done with them is the way forward.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Does the hon. Lady not note with concern that the UK’s high rate of corporation tax, relatively speaking, has caused a whole load of British companies to leave the UK, thus destroying jobs and money?

[Alison McGovern]

I merely disagree on the facts. I disagree that we have had an overly high level of corporation tax and that we have not had inward investment. I would invite the hon. Gentleman to come with me to Vauxhall Motors or Unilever in my constituency, where they have just invested millions of pounds in high-tech kit that means that that research will go on in this country in the long term. I disagree with the hon. Gentleman on the facts, I do not think that what he says is the case, and I do not think that that is what is happening. There is a risk that it might happen in the future, unless the Government show an active approach to working with businesses to ensure that they have the right incentives to stay and invest in Britain.

In conclusion, I have three points that I ask the Government to take into account. I ask them to consider, on an ongoing basis, the effectiveness of HMRC and whether the resources allocated are enough to bring in the necessary taxes to bring the budget further towards balance. I question what more they can do to promote real growth and the rebalancing of our economy. I worry about the effect of the VAT rise on those people who are least able to cope with it and that that will yet again distort the economy in Britain. Our economy actually operates very differently in different geographical areas. I do not mean to point out a north-south divide, because parts of the south-west are likely to suffer in similar ways to my area. We need to be careful at this important time. Much can be done to work with businesses and assist them in making investments, and I hope that the Government will consider that as the Bill goes forward.