Infrastructure Bill [Lords]
Debate between Caroline Lucas and Tom Greatrex(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Tom Greatrex
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. I did indeed have a chance to read her Committee’s report of this morning, and she explained how that was a rapidly produced but important piece of work which touched on the many issues I have raised concerns about. In the summary of the report, her Committee highlighted a number of issues in terms of methane emissions and monitoring and nationally important areas and water protection zones which are addressed in new clause 19, and I think her Committee has done the House a service in bringing those points forward.
Fracking
Debate between Caroline Lucas and Tom GreatrexWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray.
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) on securing the debate, which I think is his first since leaving the Government. I am not surprised, having read parts of his website, that he has chosen fracking as the subject of his first such debate, because the tone and content of what he said in his speech are not inconsistent with letters I have seen that he has written to his constituents about the issue, including when he was presumably supportive of Government policy through collective responsibility, which I am sure he now feels relieved to be free from.
I am conscious that a lot of questions were directed at the Minister by the contributors to the debate, so I will endeavour to be brief to give him time to respond. He is interrogating his notes so that he can respond to a range of detailed questions.
The right hon. Member for Lewes succinctly ran through almost all people’s concerns, objections and issues over a long period. Some of his quotes were slightly selective, including his characterisation of the position of the UKERC, which takes the sensible and rational position that, potentially, unconventional gas has a role to play in the energy mix. It is right to warn, however, of the dangers of the way in which shale gas has been hyped and—I completely agree with this—oversold. The argument that it is a silver bullet to solve all our energy problems simply does not stack up. Frankly, some of the comments made by the Chancellor at his party conference a couple of years ago set the tone for discussion of the subject, which has meant that we have had a polarised debate, despite those of us who have sought to introduce a greater degree of analysis.
A lot of points have been made during this debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) talked about the public concern about a process that is not new, but has created a high degree of controversy, in part because of experience in the United States, which is different from the UK in terms of the rights of the landowners, the structure of the gas network and market and therefore the impact on industrial and consumer prices, and the regulation. A lot of the concerns expressed in this debate and others have been the result of limited or nonexistent regulation in the early parts of the exploration for shale gas in the US, but we are in a different position in the UK, and we should be.
In my view, shale and other unconventional gas and geothermal should happen only in a context of robust regulation and comprehensive inspection. The point made by the hon. Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) was a good one—that bodies should have the resources to monitor regulation effectively. It is no good having a regulatory regime that ticks all the boxes and satisfies people without confidence that that regulation is being monitored. That applies to the Scottish Government, who made cuts to the budget of SEPA, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, which is responsible in Scotland, as well as to the Environment Agency. That might not be an issue in the early stages, but if things ever get to any significant scale, it will become one, because those bodies will not have the resources to be able to monitor the regulation effectively.
Two and a half years ago, I set out a number of regulatory objectives that I thought needed to be met while a moratorium was in place. Some were met and some not. When the Infrastructure Bill comes to the Commons, I am sure we will have a debate about such objectives, but the important point to bear in mind is the public acceptability test, which might well go beyond what some deem to be strictly necessary to regulating an activity, given the analogous activity offshore. If we are ever to be in a position in which we can explore the issues, we have to ensure that the public acceptability test can be met. We will never satisfy those who have an absolutist and ideological objection to any fossil fuels at all—
Tom Greatrex
No, I will not, because I am short on time.
Some people, including speakers in the debate, make the point that they are absolutely opposed to the use of any fossil fuels, or at least that their use should be minimised in our mix. Many others, however, are concerned about a range of different issues that have been highlighted today. It is crucial that such legitimate and local environmental concerns are addressed, that the wider regulatory points are properly robust and that we are in a position in which we can explore whether there is anything in shale gas for our energy mix in the future.
None of us in the room can tell the public or anyone how much shale gas can be recovered; we do not know, and we will not know until exploration happens, and exploration will happen only with greater public consent. We should be approaching the debate in that framework and not as though shale gas was a silver bullet for all our energy problems, the path to untold riches and a solution to all our problems at once. I very much doubt whether it ever will be those things, but perhaps it can make a contribution. For those reasons, we need to deal with matters in a cautious manner, which is the right approach to take in dealing with fracking and the potential resource of unconventional gas for the future.
Energy Bill
Debate between Caroline Lucas and Tom Greatrex(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Tom Greatrex
No, I do not accept that and I will go on to explain why during the remainder of my remarks.
We have heard, and I anticipate we will hear more in the time available, about coal generation. Some in this House are hostile to coal-fired power. Indeed, a number of those who are most enthusiastic for unconventional gas cite its ability to use less coal as part of their case for shale. There are others who are supportive of the remaining indigenous coalfields and have strong constituency associations with coal-fired generation. A number have previously worked in that industry and I have a huge amount of respect for their knowledge and expertise. For my part, I think that coal-fired generation remains an important part of our generation mix. We are currently using, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) pointed out, a significant amount of coal generation, particularly in the winter months. Earlier this week, the UK achieved a new generation record for wind, but coal is currently the predominant part of our generation mix.
My support for coal as part of that mix is not born of any historical romanticism about the industry so much as the positive opportunity presented by carbon capture and storage for a bright future for clean coal. That important point has been recognised by the joint industry and trade union clean coal group, which has expressed many of the concerns I have about the limited and slow progress on CCS in the past three years. That is an important point when we take comparisons into account. If Members have not had the opportunity to do so, I would ask them to consider the significant progress made in Canada on CCS. My hon. Friend, a member of the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, has drawn attention to the tantalising and real prospect of a commercially scaled CCS project being up and running in the early part of next year. That shows what can be done with a sense of purpose and real intent.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the Carbon Tracker report that shows we need to leave four fifths of known proven fossil fuel reserves in the ground if we are to have any chance of avoiding 2° warming? That being the case, Carbon Tracker analysis found that, even with CCS, fossil fuel carbon budgets would be extended by only a very small amount. If we are serious about staying below 2°, CCS still does not help us—we need to get off coal with or without CCS.
Tom Greatrex
I respect the hon. Lady’s opinions, but I disagree with her on that point. CCS provides us with the best opportunity to meet our peaking capacity demands alongside the low carbon base load generation. I know she is against that in relation to nuclear and supports more variable low carbon generation in relation to renewables.
My hon. Friend has been keen, clear and committed to ensuring that CCS is not just about gas, but coal too. He makes a compelling case and I look forward to the Select Committee’s report on this important issue early in the new year.
UK Shale Gas
Debate between Caroline Lucas and Tom Greatrex(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Amess. I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on allowing this debate to take place. This is the second debate on shale gas that we have had in this Chamber in the last couple of days; some Members here took part in that debate, and some did not.
I am pleased that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) had the opportunity to read the Hansard report of Tuesday’s debate. I do not intend to repeat much of my contribution that day, partly because I am conscious that during this debate, Members have raised questions to which they seek responses from the Minister, and I want to ensure the maximum possible time for those answers that he has available to be forthcoming to those Members, who have expressed important points.
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert). Towards the end of his contribution, he made a crucial and important point about the balance in this debate between different issues that must be properly addressed. I have no financial or registrable interests in anything to do with any aspect of the energy industry, but I have an interest in ensuring that we have a balanced, rational, evidence-based debate and that conclusions are drawn and decisions made on the best evidence available.
The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion chided me for saying in the debate on Tuesday that some people had an absolutist position. It is not an insult; it is a statement of fact. She has an absolutist position against the extraction of unconventional gas. That is an entirely legitimate position for her to hold; it is a position held by some and diametrically opposed to the position held by others. It was not intended as a slight. My point in saying it was that some people will never be in favour. That is perfectly legitimate. I was interested during the debate on Tuesday, and I am interested during this debate, to consider properly all the factors involved and ensure that all the environmental concerns expressed by numerous Members with constituency interests—including my hon. Friends the Members for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt), the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) and my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer)—are properly addressed.
Caroline Lucas
The hon. Gentleman implied that it was ideological or absolutist to say that I cannot see what scientific evidence is out there that would persuade me that the extraction of shale gas is compatible with staying below 2ºC. That is an evidence-based position, and to say that it is ideological or absolutist undermines that. That is the point that I was making in my criticism.
Tom Greatrex
The hon. Lady makes my point for me. That is an absolutist position, and she has defined in her terms why it is absolutist. In relation to the evidence, I point her to the report by the Committee on Climate Change. Sometimes, when we get into debate on the issue of unconventional gas, we consider that it is only about electricity generation. She will be aware, as other hon. Members are, that we use a considerable amount of gas in this country for heating as well, and we will continue to do so well into the future. I have been on a platform with her in the past when she has made the point about the need for gas as peaking capacity as well. I do not think that she is suggesting that we will not need gas.
The consideration, then, is whether it can be done safely, whether the regulation can be right and whether it can be monitored properly. That is why, in March 2012—I will not read it into the record again, as I did so on Tuesday—I set a number of conditions that I believe need to be met in terms of regulation. However, the monitoring must also be in place, and it must be as comprehensive as the regulation is robust. That is where I have continuing concerns, particularly relating to the resources of the Environment Agency and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and their ability to do that.
It is right that people should be concerned about some aspects of self-certification, particularly in the early stages. I take Government Members’ point that the technology is not new, but it is a new application of the technology in the UK context. For that reason, a higher public acceptability test must be met. If it is not met, planning applications will not be successful and shale gas development will not happen. There is an interest in ensuring that it is done properly, which is why I continue to have concerns about the level of monitoring.
Tom Greatrex
I will give way one more time, but then I hope to conclude my remarks.
Caroline Lucas
The hon. Gentleman is kind to give way. I am only intervening again because he is quoting what he says I did or did not say. On the issue of whether we need gas, yes, we need a small amount of gas as a transition fuel to get us to the renewable future that we need, but the question is what to do over the next 10 years. Do we lock ourselves into or put in place the infrastructure for a whole new gas business here in Britain, or do we use the 10 years that it would take to get shale gas going in Britain to invest properly in renewables? There is an opportunity cost and a decision to be made. I would rather we invested in renewables.
Tom Greatrex
I would like us to invest in renewables, because I think that it is important, but I take a slightly different view of the prognosis for how long we will require gas both for heating and for electricity generation. In relation to our indigenous gas supply from the North sea, the hon. Lady will know as well as I do that the extent to which we rely on imports has changed massively in the past 10 years. The trajectory is going one way. If it is possible to extract shale gas safely, and if it is properly regulated and monitored, we may have the benefit of being able to replace some of what we import with indigenous supply. We should not close our minds to that or seek to block it.
I would like to make a slightly different point to the other extreme. I have been listening to the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) responding to other speeches from a sedentary position. He has said a number of times to Members with constituency interests in the issue that it is about showing leadership. With all due respect, leadership is not about hysterical hectoring; it is about ensuring that the approach is evidence-based and that all the arguments can be properly, systematically and fundamentally dealt with, so that people can see exactly what the level of risk is.