Bee-killing Pesticides

Debate between Caroline Lucas and Mark Spencer

Wednesday 1st February 2023 Westminster Hall

[Mark Spencer]

We take into account all of that data when making these decisions. We take the best advice from the best scientists and make these decisions on their advice. My decision was informed by the advice of the Health and Safety Executive and by the views of the UK expert committee on pesticides and DEFRA’s chief scientific adviser on the scientific evidence. I also considered economic issues, informed by analysis from DEFRA economists.

Looking to the future, we do not wish to see the temporary use of neonicotinoids continue indefinitely. The development of alternative and sustainable approaches to protect sugar beet crops from these viruses is paramount. That includes the development of resistant plant varieties, measures to improve crop hygiene and husbandry, and alternative pesticides. British Sugar and the British Beet Research Organisation are undertaking a programme of work to develop these alternatives, which include yellows virus-specific integrated pest management techniques. The Government are closely monitoring the progress of that.

[Caroline Lucas]

The Minister will know that, since 1970, the UK has lost 50% or more of our insects. Whatever he is saying to us this morning, I do not think he is saying that risk is completely absent; he is balancing risks. Where does the precautionary principle come into his analysis and assessment, given that the risks that we face are so huge? Even if he thinks that the risk is small, none the less, if it happens and there is yet more of a collapse of our bee populations, we are in deep trouble.

[Mark Spencer]

That is one of the reasons why we have introduced the new environmental land management schemes, whose purpose is to change the way farmers grow crops and make them adopt those practices. We recognise how important bees are, and we want to work with farmers to improve the conditions for pollinators. We want to work with nature, rather than against it.

As hon. Members know, we continue our work on the agricultural transition, and we are repurposing the land-based subsidies we inherited from the EU. The hon. Lady makes the point that they did little for the environment and little for farmers. We will now have a new, ambitious system that rewards farmers and land managers for their role as environmental stewards, and that starts with the sustainable farming incentive.

[Caroline Lucas]

Will the Minister specifically address the precautionary principle? How did he apply it to the decision he made?

[Mark Spencer]

We have to balance all those factors and all the scientific advice, including the precautionary principle, in coming to this decision. It is not an easy decision to make. We have to consider lots of scientific advice on the risk to pollinators and to the sugar beet crop.

We have just published our indicative plan for the roll-out of the sustainable farming incentive standards, which includes the introduction of paid integrated pest management actions. That includes paying farmers to carry out an assessment and produce an integrated pest management plan; introduce natural methods of pest management, such as flower-rich grass margins or field strips, or companion cropping; and take steps to move towards insecticide-free farming. That will support farmers to minimise the use of pesticides and will incentivise the uptake of alternative ways to control pests.

Integrated pest management is at the heart of our approach to support farmers to practise sustainable pest management. We have already commissioned a package of research projects that will enable farmers to access the most effective IPM tools available, and ensure that we understand changing trends in pest threats across the UK.

As I have outlined, the decision to allow the limited and controlled use of neonicotinoids on a single crop has not been taken lightly and is based on robust scientific assessment. We will continue to work hard to support our farmers and protect and restore our vital pollinator populations.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Caroline Lucas and Mark Spencer

Thursday 17th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

I thank my hon. Friend for her question. She will be aware that planning policy is a matter for the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, and solar policy is a matter for the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, but she should be assured that my officials are working closely with those Departments to ensure that we get the right balance between boosting our food production and delivering long-term energy security.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Can the Secretary of State guarantee that the outstanding statutory deadlines we have spoken about on air, water and so forth will be published before COP15, so that we can lead by example? If she cannot guarantee that, does she agree that that bodes incredibly ill for the deadlines in the utterly misguided and reckless Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill? If we cannot meet these deadlines, how will we meet those?

Business of the House

Debate between Caroline Lucas and Mark Spencer

Thursday 21st April 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mark Spencer]

My hon. Friend is a long-time campaigner on animal welfare issues, and is recognised across the House for his work in that area. He is right to once again draw attention to the plight of elephants in Asia. There may be an opportunity for him to raise that directly with the Minister at the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions next Thursday, but I know that, should he secure an Adjournment debate on the matter, a number of colleagues will want to engage with that debate.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

This weekend marks the anniversary of the mass trespass of Kinder Scout, which paved the way for the establishment of our precious national parks. Yet 90 years on, the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 still only allows the public to access around 8% of the land in England. The evidence of the importance of nature for our health and wellbeing continues to grow, so it is profoundly disappointing to learn today that the Government will not be releasing the results of the Agnew review—the Access to the Outdoors Commission. Can we have an urgent debate on the right to roam and the importance of extending that by amending the CRoW Act as soon as possible?

[Mark Spencer]

I join the hon. Lady in recognising the huge contribution that access to the open countryside can have on people’s physical and mental health. We are blessed in this country with hundreds of thousands of miles of public footpath to allow people to access the countryside, but I hope that she also recognises that, as well as a place of leisure, the countryside is also a place of food production and business. At this time of year, there are lambs in the fields, so it is quite important that people keep dogs on leads when accessing the countryside. Food production is a very important part of the UK economy and, as I have said, we must recognise that the countryside is a place not just of leisure, but of business and food production.

Rail Fares

Debate between Caroline Lucas and Mark Spencer

Wednesday 5th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

I am grateful for this opportunity to speak. Like many colleagues, I wish the Secretary of State well, although he is not in his seat at the moment. It was great to see him back at the Dispatch Box. In taking interventions from Opposition Members, he was generous, flexible and accommodating—characteristics that he did not always demonstrate in his previous role.

This debate is simple for me. Although the railways are a complicated issue, the fundamental question is, who will pick up the tab of improving our railways? I am pretty disappointed by this debate because it is almost blatantly politically opportunistic. This is such a serious issue and it affects so many of our consumers and constituents that we should have more grace than to bat it about in this way and try to score cheap political points.

The answer to who will pick up the tab is, ultimately, the taxpayer. If we all agree that the railways need improvement and investment, and that the cash has to come from somewhere, ultimately the taxpayer has to pay the bill. The question is how to strike the balance between the ordinary taxpayer and the individual taxpayer who makes use of the service and rides on the trains. I put it to the House that someone working in the former coalfields of Sherwood, where rail services are pretty sparse, who earns less than £20,000 a year should not be put under pressure to pay taxes to give a banker who lives in Surrey a subsidised ride into the City. That is a difficult problem to solve, but we have to get the balance right between the ordinary taxpayer and the commuter. I am not sure that we have got the balance right today.

Standing at the Dispatch Box today, the Secretary of State inherits a situation that I do not envy: he comes to his role in the middle of a global financial crunch; he inherits a railway system that has faced enormous under-investment from a series of Governments; he faces the global price of energy going through the roof; and he has inherited a deficit from the previous Government that is difficult to solve.

[Caroline Lucas]

The hon. Gentleman talks about the importance of getting the right balance. Does he think the right balance has been struck given that, since rail privatisation, there has been a 7% drop in the cost of motoring and a 17% rise in rail fares?

[Mr Spencer]

I do not know what sort of car the hon. Lady drives, but I certainly have not seen a 7% drop in the cost of my motoring. I do not think we have got the balance right at the moment, but we have heard a series of speeches by Opposition Members about how nationalisation could improve the railways. I wonder whether people’s memories are so short that they forget how poor British Rail was. The Government who privatised the railways did not do it because British Rail was so fantastic.

[Mr Spencer]

I would be very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I accept that this is a complicated issue, but when British Rail ran the railways it was not a panacea or a fantastic system. There were enormous delays for commuters, and the railway carriages were cramped. The service provided to commuters was shocking.

We could argue that there has not been enough progress, which I accept to a certain extent. Like the Secretary of State, I travel on the midland main line. It seems simple to say that capacity on that line could be improved just by making the trains a little longer, but the situation is much more complicated than that. The trains are already too long for people who want to get out of certain carriages at Loughborough station, so they have to move down the train to get off. Enormous investment is required in the midland main line, which is one of the most under-invested railway lines in the country, and I am delighted that the Government are putting in the cash to improve it by moving electrification further up towards the midlands and Yorkshire. It has been a long time coming.

I return to my constituents in Sherwood, who are not blessed with wonderful railway connections. If a resident of the town of Ollerton is employed in the city of Nottingham, their only option is to use buses or get in the car and drive. Public transport provision in my constituency is shockingly poor, and with the exception of the town of Hucknall, railway provision is pretty much non-existent. A taxpayer in Ollerton has to get in their car, for which they have paid road tax, and fund their journey by paying for petrol and the tax on it. They drive to the city of Nottingham and pay the workplace parking levy introduced by the Labour-controlled city council to earn their wage to pay taxes to support a banker in Surrey by cheapening his journey into the City of London. To someone working in Sherwood and earning twenty thousand quid, that does not seem acceptable. We sometimes need a bit of a reality check. I have heard a lot of complaints from colleagues in the south-east. I understand that they feel under pressure because of the increases in the cost of their rail tickets, but there is not a great deal of sympathy from hard-pressed, hard-working people in the coalfields of Nottinghamshire who are on low wages.

How will we solve the problem? Frankly, I am not sure that I have all the answers, but I would be delighted to work with the Secretary of State and the transport team to try to solve it. I believe that the answer is for the price of railway tickets to creep up, so that people can adapt and adjust, and for us to find ways of being more efficient. My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) talked about efficiency savings, which will be the key to solving the problem. We must not only make use of taxpayers’ money for investment but find ways of spending it in the most efficient way possible. It is not tolerable or acceptable to my hard-working, tax-paying constituents that they have to keep dipping their hand in their pocket only for that money to be wasted rather than spent in the most efficient possible manner. If efficiencies are made, they will be able to benefit when they make use of the trains if they have the opportunity to come to London or to commute across Nottinghamshire. They cannot keep paying indefinitely without efficiency savings.

Probably the most shocking statistic that I have heard today is the comparison between the cost of flying and using rail. It is now cheaper to fly from Edinburgh to London than it is to go on the train. It seems bonkers that we find ourselves in that position, but it demonstrates how efficient the private sector can be in providing air journeys.

[Caroline Lucas]

The hon. Gentleman’s point is utterly specious. That situation has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a privatised airline and everything to do with the fact that airline fuel is subsidised whereas other fuel is not. If we subsidise domestic flights, it is not surprising that railways will be more expensive. Will he follow through on the logic of his argument and say that the Government will consider getting rid of the subsidy on domestic flight fuel?

[Mr Spencer]

I certainly think that we should examine how railways fund their fuel and energy supplies, and we are considering electrifying lines so that they are more efficient. I know that the hon. Lady is talking about aviation fuel, but I make the point that some rail lines, such as the midland main line, run on diesel rather than electricity. I am sure that the carbon footprint of those journeys will be of interest to her, and I wholly accept that we should continue to examine the matter.

I cannot reiterate enough the importance of getting the balance right between the commuter paying and the taxpayer paying. It is easy to forget that hard-working people doing fairly low-paid jobs are under equal pressure and also have to pay for transport to work. It is wrong to suggest that we can simply reduce rail fares.

I was aghast at some of the comments of my Liberal colleague the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who is no longer in his place. He said that cutting the price of some rail tickets was Liberal Democrat policy. I hope that when the Minister responds, he will assure us, as a Liberal Democrat member of the Government, that the Liberal Democrat policy and the Government’s policy are fairly closely aligned. In the land of buttercups, rainbows and daffodils where my colleague seems to live, things do not seem to balance out as I understand them in the real world.

I look forward to the Minister’s response and hope that as the Secretary of State settles into his role he will consider the whole country, not just the commuters. They are obviously under pressure as they have to pay for their tickets, but he should also consider the hard-working taxpayers.They do not have a lot of spare cash and cannot keep dipping into their pockets for it.