Fracking

Caroline Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Westminster Hall

[Norman Baker]

I entirely accept that the geological conditions are different in different countries. There may be a stronger argument elsewhere for shale gas, for the very reasons that the hon. Gentleman has given, but I suggest to him that in the UK context, that argument does not stack up, for the reasons that we have given. Also, this UK Government and the previous Government have given a strong lead internationally on tackling climate change. We have a very good record on that, and what we do is very important in sending a signal to other countries. We should not underestimate that.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a very powerful case. Does he agree that the research from the Tyndall centre is very useful in this respect? It says that UK shale gas development is “quantitatively and unambiguously incompatible” with the UK’s commitment to working towards remaining below 2° C of warming.

[Norman Baker]

If we end up with a massive shale gas industry, which is what some parts of the Government have suggested may be the case, we are building in reliance on fossil fuels to a large degree for an indefinite period. If, however, the shale gas reserves are not realisable, as I believe they may not be, we will spend a lot of money and time on something that does not produce much at all. Either way, it does not make sense.

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[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

I congratulate, as others have, the right hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) on securing this important debate. I was going to intervene on the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) before you, Mr Gray, reminded us of the time limits, but I point out to him that Sir David King, the former chief scientist and former champion of nuclear power, has just performed a U-turn on the issue. The hon. Gentleman was being so scathing about those who do not believe that nuclear has a part in the energy mix, but we are in increasingly good company. I also point out to him that when he lauds what is happening in the US, he should bear in mind that the net cash flow from the US shale has been negative year after year. Some of the biggest names in investment in US shale are leaving. At an average US shale gas well, production can drop by 60% in 12 months. The Americans are having to build well after well. The UK is a much smaller country; we simply cannot do what the US is doing.

In the short moments I have, I will focus on two things in particular: I will say a few words about regulation, but I will mostly talk about the climate change arguments. On regulation, we have a Government who will keep trying to persuade us that they will put in place the robust regulatory framework we need to make fracking safe, yet at other times they put on a different hat and tell us how much they are proud of their deregulatory zeal. I do not think I am the only person suggesting that those two impetuses are contradictory. My fear is that the deregulatory zeal will win out.

We also have a Government who are starving such organisations as the Environment Agency of resources. That is precisely the agency that needs to be there to ensure that fracking is as safe as it can be. I echo the concerns and queries of the right hon. Member for Lewes on well integrity at Preese Hall and Balcombe. Can the Minister categorically reassure us that there have been no well integrity failures at Preese Hall or Balcombe? I tabled a written question on that, and it was transferred to the Department for Work and Pensions. I was disappointed that the Minister’s Department chose not to answer it. I am hoping, given that we have a joined-up Government, that he can answer that question shortly.

Even if we had a perfect, generously resourced system of standards, regulation and monitoring, which we do not, the question whether UK shale gas development can be sustainable must ultimately rest on whether it is compatible with securing a safe and habitable climate for current and future generations. The bottom line is that building a whole new fossil fuel industry is the last thing that the UK should be doing if we are serious about securing that safe and habitable climate for our children and grandchildren.

The argument that shale gas is lower carbon than coal only stacks up if minimum methane emissions can be guaranteed. Even if that were possible, the argument that shale gas can be a substitute for coal ignores the crucial issues of time scales, overall carbon budgets and the displacement effects that the hon. Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) has been talking about. Shale gas is still a high-carbon fossil fuel, even if it is a bit better than some coal. The crucial thing is that we have at our disposal numerous other ways to ensure that coal is off the system by the early 2020s at the latest. Other Members have given some examples of that. We do not need shale gas.

Those arguing that shale gas is compatible with the UK’s climate objectives ignore a pivotal issue, despite its being identified in the report from the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s then chief scientist. He said:

“If a country brings any additional fossil fuel reserve into production, then in the absence of strong climate policies, we believe it is likely that this production would increase cumulative emissions in the long run. This increase would work against global efforts on climate change.”

Essentially, the argument is about unburnable carbon. As other Members have said, reports and analysis from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the Carbon Tracker Initiative, the International Energy Agency and even Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, all show that we cannot afford to burn the vast majority of existing fossil fuel reserves if we are to avoid the worst impacts of climate change. In the context of cuts and austerity, using public money on tax breaks and relentless public relations initiatives to help fracking firms find yet more oil and gas is inexcusable.

An effective response to climate change requires a complete shift to carbon-neutral energy systems within a generation in all the major economies, including Britain. We know how to do that. We have the technology and engineering capacity to do it and we can afford to do it. What we need is the political will, because we cannot do it while making ourselves more, not less, dependent on any kind of fossil fuel. This is how the UK’s former top energy and climate diplomat, John Ashton, put it:

“You can be in favour of fixing the climate. Or you can be in favour of exploiting shale gas. But you can’t be in favour of both at the same time.”

Just last week, the UK announced its welcome contribution to the green climate fund, which was set up to help developing countries cope with the devastating impacts of climate change that many already face. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change was right to emphasise the need to help poorer countries to develop using clean renewable technologies and to highlight the green climate fund as a crucial part of the jigsaw of getting a global climate agreement in Paris next year. It is incoherent, irresponsible and deeply unhelpful for the Government at the same time to be doing everything they can to build a new dirty fracking industry in the UK. The only safe and responsible thing to do with shale gas is to leave it in the ground.

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[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray.

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) on securing the debate, which I think is his first since leaving the Government. I am not surprised, having read parts of his website, that he has chosen fracking as the subject of his first such debate, because the tone and content of what he said in his speech are not inconsistent with letters I have seen that he has written to his constituents about the issue, including when he was presumably supportive of Government policy through collective responsibility, which I am sure he now feels relieved to be free from.

I am conscious that a lot of questions were directed at the Minister by the contributors to the debate, so I will endeavour to be brief to give him time to respond. He is interrogating his notes so that he can respond to a range of detailed questions.

The right hon. Member for Lewes succinctly ran through almost all people’s concerns, objections and issues over a long period. Some of his quotes were slightly selective, including his characterisation of the position of the UKERC, which takes the sensible and rational position that, potentially, unconventional gas has a role to play in the energy mix. It is right to warn, however, of the dangers of the way in which shale gas has been hyped and—I completely agree with this—oversold. The argument that it is a silver bullet to solve all our energy problems simply does not stack up. Frankly, some of the comments made by the Chancellor at his party conference a couple of years ago set the tone for discussion of the subject, which has meant that we have had a polarised debate, despite those of us who have sought to introduce a greater degree of analysis.

A lot of points have been made during this debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) talked about the public concern about a process that is not new, but has created a high degree of controversy, in part because of experience in the United States, which is different from the UK in terms of the rights of the landowners, the structure of the gas network and market and therefore the impact on industrial and consumer prices, and the regulation. A lot of the concerns expressed in this debate and others have been the result of limited or nonexistent regulation in the early parts of the exploration for shale gas in the US, but we are in a different position in the UK, and we should be.

In my view, shale and other unconventional gas and geothermal should happen only in a context of robust regulation and comprehensive inspection. The point made by the hon. Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) was a good one—that bodies should have the resources to monitor regulation effectively. It is no good having a regulatory regime that ticks all the boxes and satisfies people without confidence that that regulation is being monitored. That applies to the Scottish Government, who made cuts to the budget of SEPA, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, which is responsible in Scotland, as well as to the Environment Agency. That might not be an issue in the early stages, but if things ever get to any significant scale, it will become one, because those bodies will not have the resources to be able to monitor the regulation effectively.

Two and a half years ago, I set out a number of regulatory objectives that I thought needed to be met while a moratorium was in place. Some were met and some not. When the Infrastructure Bill comes to the Commons, I am sure we will have a debate about such objectives, but the important point to bear in mind is the public acceptability test, which might well go beyond what some deem to be strictly necessary to regulating an activity, given the analogous activity offshore. If we are ever to be in a position in which we can explore the issues, we have to ensure that the public acceptability test can be met. We will never satisfy those who have an absolutist and ideological objection to any fossil fuels at all—

[Caroline Lucas]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Tom Greatrex]

No, I will not, because I am short on time.

Some people, including speakers in the debate, make the point that they are absolutely opposed to the use of any fossil fuels, or at least that their use should be minimised in our mix. Many others, however, are concerned about a range of different issues that have been highlighted today. It is crucial that such legitimate and local environmental concerns are addressed, that the wider regulatory points are properly robust and that we are in a position in which we can explore whether there is anything in shale gas for our energy mix in the future.

None of us in the room can tell the public or anyone how much shale gas can be recovered; we do not know, and we will not know until exploration happens, and exploration will happen only with greater public consent. We should be approaching the debate in that framework and not as though shale gas was a silver bullet for all our energy problems, the path to untold riches and a solution to all our problems at once. I very much doubt whether it ever will be those things, but perhaps it can make a contribution. For those reasons, we need to deal with matters in a cautious manner, which is the right approach to take in dealing with fracking and the potential resource of unconventional gas for the future.

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[Matthew Hancock]

The regulatory approach is not one of self-regulation. There is clear statute and there are clear statutory guidelines that oversee the process. Statutory guidelines are in themselves a form of regulation.

Several hon. Members mentioned the leakage of fluids and methane from different wells that have been drilled so far. At Preese Hall, the well did not fail and the Health and Safety Executive has made it clear that it is satisfied with the steps taken by the operator to deal with the small pressure that was detected.

I pay tribute to the clear mind that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has on this issue, although I happen to disagree with her position, because I do not think that the best place for shale gas is underground. She said that she was disappointed that her parliamentary question went to the DWP. That happened because it was a question for the Health and Safety Executive, and the DWP is responsible for the HSE. She also referred to a point made by the former chief scientist. He said that shale gas was a problem in the absence of a climate change policy. Well, we have a climate change policy.

That brings me to a point raised by many Members, namely that exploring for shale gas—cautiously and carefully—is entirely consistent with building renewables and with having safe and secure domestic supplies. I bow to no one in my support for renewables. We have doubled the amount of energy coming from renewables—last year, 13% of our electricity came from them. The amount of investment in renewables—my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewes referred to that—demonstrates our support for them very clearly.

[Caroline Lucas]

Does the Minister not recognise that the issue that really matters is how much fossil fuel is being burned and cannot be how much more renewable energy is being created if those renewables do not replace fossil fuels? My argument with him is that at the same time as creating some renewables—for which he gets some credit, although there are not nearly enough—he is anticipating a whole new fossil fuel industry. That is incompatible—the scientists say that it is—with the kind of targets we currently have on climate change.

[Matthew Hancock]

I am afraid that a sweeping statement like, “The scientists say this or that,” undermines the hon. Lady’s case and shows that it is not based on a rigorous analysis of the facts.

I will make a couple more points in the three minutes I have left. My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) made a clear and balanced argument, and really put his finger on the issue: until we explore, we do not know how big the opportunity is. I sometimes felt that some Members did not know whether their problem was that there was not enough shale gas or that there was too much. Instead, the question we have to answer is how much shale gas can reasonably be brought out of the ground at a commercial rate under a strong regulatory regime. We need to explore because of the support that will give for jobs for the chemical industry, which many hon. Members mentioned, and because of the direct benefit for those involved.

My hon. Friend the Member for Fylde specifically mentioned both independent monitoring, which is important, and the independent panel of experts that he has called for. That is an interesting idea and I will look at it. I am constantly on the lookout for ways to reassure people that the exploration will be carefully monitored and will be done safely. For instance, my first decision in this job was to strengthen the planning guidance on national parks, which has dealt with many of the problems that my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewes is worried about.

The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) asked whether the gas can be retrieved in a way that is sensible and rational. The Opposition Front-Bench spokesman’s argument was about whether we can have robust and effective regulation, and he asked for reason and analysis in the debate on this issue. That is exactly the approach we should take and is the Government’s approach.

I firmly believe that the more well-founded, well-researched scientific analysis that is put in the public domain, the more we will be able to reassure people that shale gas represents an opportunity that it is incumbent upon us as a country to look at and explore and that that exploration can be done safely. It has to be done within a strong regulatory structure, but will none the less provide an opportunity for jobs, energy security and economic benefit and, in the short term, will tackle climate change by removing other dirtier fuels from the system, within the context of a balanced energy mix. I therefore look forward to working with all hon. Members to make sure that we get this matter right, so that we can take the advantages of the exploration, which are clear, but do so in a way that mitigates some of the risks that are undoubtedly there as well.