Broadband

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 8th March 2017 Westminster Hall

[Matt Hancock]

Yes—I might include a copy of the Hansard, although I know that the Advertising Standards Authority will be listening because I spoke to its chief exec yesterday to explain that this debate was going to take place. I explained that it is not only the Government’s view that we need to have more accurate advertising, but a widely held view in Parliament.

To give the ASA credit, it has made serious progress in one area. Last year it changed the rules on prices for landlines and line rental being advertised separately from the price for just the broadband element. Previously, an advert might have had the broadband cost and then said in the small print at the bottom, “You also need line rental of £19.99 a month.” Now it has changed those rules, so the costs are amalgamated. That has been a success and, in a way, shows what an effective body the ASA is when it insists on accurate advertising.

[Calum Kerr]

That is a really important point, because we have seen that there is real competition in the line rental part of the sector. It is a bit like the case of low-cost airlines—once the whole price is considered, competitors compete across every part of it. By making that change the ASA has driven far greater competition, and it should be encouraged by that.

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, it should. Its sister body, the Committee of Advertising Practice, which is responsible for writing the UK advertising codes, is now in the midst of reviewing its guidance on broadband speed claims and is on course to publish the findings of that review this spring—I am sure that it will listen carefully to this debate.

The ASA has made progress this year and is in the middle of consulting on and reviewing the issue of “up to” speeds, but there is an area where it has not yet made any progress: the description of the technology. In my view, and having talked to many people about broadband, some people look at numbers when making a decision and some look at descriptions. It is natural that we look at different things. Describing technology as “fibre” when it is not in fact entirely fibre is misleading. If anything, that view was compounded by a briefing note given to me by BT for this debate, which says that

“customers overwhelmingly have no preference for the technology used to provide broadband.”

That may be true, but it does not mean that people want an inaccurate description of the technology. It goes on to say:

“While BT does provide the most FTTP (‘full fibre’) lines across the UK, the average FTTC line is around 93% fibre…The ASA has looked at this situation and agrees that services using almost entirely fibre-based technology can be described as ‘fibre’.”

I very much hope not for long. BT then demonstrates why that is deeply misleading, because the next sentence says:

“A higher proportion of UK premises can access fibre broadband than in any of the other four major European economies (Germany, France, Spain, and Italy)”.

That is not true. It is true only if “fibre” is defined as being part fibre and part something else, whether copper or aluminium. If fibre is defined as being fibre—I believe that fibre means fibre—in fact we are not the best of the five major European economies, but the worst. Accuracy would help BT to provide more accurate briefing notes, and its use of the term “fibre” should be updated. I am sure that the ASA will be able to take that forward in due course.

I want to touch on a couple of the other comments that were made. My hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight) and the right hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), in a commendably crisp speech, made points about business connections. If anything, this issue is more important for business customers, because businesses of different sizes may need services of different scales. Whereas a superfast connection is more than most households would need at the moment, if businesses have several people working on data-heavy projects they might need a highly scalable product, and for that, the technology really matters.

I am sure that everyone is delighted that in the Budget this afternoon, the Chancellor announced significant progress on having a full-fibre business voucher. I am delighted that that will now be rolled out. We proposed it first in the autumn statement and consulted on it in the last couple of months. I am delighted that it was part of the Budget; it will be an important step forward. However, we have had to describe that as “full fibre” to get away from the completely unnecessary ambiguity over the term “fibre”. I am confident that that will change soon.

The second point I want to touch on—again, this was raised by the right hon. Member for Slough—is the appropriate proportion of customers who should be able to get a particular speed. That is technically difficult, especially because speeds vary when more people get on to the network, so it is important to ensure that we get the technical specifications right. I have full confidence that the ASA, in listening to this debate and to customers around the country, and in considering the technical challenges, will come to a reasonable conclusion. I look forward to working with it to get there and to engaging with Members on both sides of the House to make sure that we have a fully functioning, competitive, well-informed and accurate broadband market, and that people no longer feel the frustration of being misled by thinking that they are buying one service when, in fact, they are delivered another.

Superfast Broadband: Rural Communities

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

I thank the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) for securing the debate and for allowing time both for many Members to set out their frustrations and for me to provide an update on progress. The roll-out that we have achieved so far, which is on track to reach 95% superfast coverage of UK premises by the end of this year, is in part a testament to the coalition Government of which he was such a critically important member.

Let me re-emphasise the Government’s commitment to addressing the digital needs of all parts of the UK. That is clearly a very important goal, and a lot has been achieved. I do not think that anyone here today, even if they have expressed the frustrations of those who have poor broadband, would deny that we have come a long way. In fact, that was demonstrated in the contribution by the Labour Front-Bench spokesperson, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh), who tied herself in knots while arguing that much has been done but much is left to do.

First, let me set out some of the figures. As I said, we are on track to reach 95% of the UK as a whole. Of course that figure is lower in rural areas, because of the nature of things. However, on the point about whether there is a distinction between rural and urban areas, let me say that as a matter of law there is such a distinction, because EU rules do not allow a subsidised broadband programme in urban areas. As a matter of fact, although there are still some patches of poor connectivity in urban areas, the picture is much better than in rural areas. It is understandable, therefore, that the mix of hon. Members here today is more rural than urban. Indeed, in Altrincham, 98.4% of people have access to superfast broadband, so you are probably the best off of the lot of us, Mr Brady—perhaps that is why you have said so little.

In Scotland, phase 1 of the Government’s superfast broadband programme, including reinvestment of clawback funding and project savings, is worth more than £11 million, and more than 60% of homes and businesses in Orkney and Shetland now have superfast broadband available to them. The highlands and islands project as a whole will have reached a total of 130,000 premises by spring 2018, none of which will be covered by commercial roll-out. So it is thanks only to UK Government action that there has been any connectivity at all in Orkney and Shetland.

I understand the frustration of the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland that things have not gone more quickly in Scotland. It has been entertaining to hear some Scottish National party Members say that things should have gone more quickly and that some of the delivery has been fragmented, because delivery in Scotland is by the Scottish Government. It is a pity and a regret, and something we have been working hard to push on, that the Scottish Government have been behind the rest of the UK in their procurement. I hope that some of the frustration that has been vented by hon. Members representing Scottish seats is directed at those who are delivering the Scottish Government contract.

Perhaps the question to ask the Scottish Government is why they have not yet managed to procure phase 2 when most of England has, and when some parts of England and Wales are moving on to phase 3. That is not a partisan point, because I will come on to the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen). The Labour Government in Wales have delivered effectively and, in fact, in Ynys Môn, where there is no commercial coverage at all, overall coverage is 80%. The Welsh Government have been much more on the front foot than the Scottish Government have in delivering for rural communities right across Wales.

[Calum Kerr]

It is amazing how the Minister can try to make a partisan point and claim it is non-partisan, but there we go. The Scottish Government scheme runs until the end of 2017. The Scottish Government have shown leadership with the R100 project, which is a commitment to give superfast to everyone—exactly what everyone here is asking for. Will the Minister commit to matching that ambition?

[Matt Hancock]

I do not want to point this out, but I have just commended the Labour Government in Wales for being further forward. I will come on to the universal service obligation, because more heat than light was produced by the hon. Gentleman’s contribution. We went through this at length during the Digital Economy Bill’s passage through the House, and in the end there was cross-party agreement regarding the universal service obligation, which will bring in 100% coverage by 2020—ahead, in fact, of the Scottish Government’s proposed date of 2021.

Broadband Universal Service Obligation

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Thursday 15th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

Of course. Topography means that it is harder to deliver in rural areas, so we are introducing a universal service obligation to ensure that everyone can get hold of broadband.

[Calum Kerr]

I let the Minister away with this bizarre comment in Committee, but he really must stop saying that 10 megabits somehow shows more ambition than 30 megabits. The Scottish Government have a target of 30 megabits by 2021. The UK Government target is 10 megabits by 2020. I know which I prefer.

[Matt Hancock]

We have been through this before; 10 megabits is our approach for the minimum. The hon. Gentleman will have to wait and see what Ofcom has to say.

I will address a partisan point that was brought into an otherwise pretty harmonious debate by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas). The previous Labour Government did bring in a universal service obligation for connectivity that was set at 28.8 kilobits, but it was unenforced. The hon. Gentleman should stop his point scoring and stick to the bit where he said how brilliantly we are doing now with the ambition that we have put in place.

I gently point out to SNP Members that the Scottish Government are responsible for procurement in Scotland, and it is a pity that procurement there is behind almost every other area of the country. We have been doing everything that we can to push them along, but they really ought to answer for slow provision in Scotland, and I am sure that they will.

I turn to the future and the two f’s: fibre and 5G. Only 2% of premises in the country have a full fibre connection. The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) talked about high levels of fibre delivery in Scotland, but that is not true. We have high levels of part-fibre delivery across the UK—it is 90% now, and it is going up to 95%—but that is not full fibre or fibre to the premises. More full fibre is being delivered elsewhere, and we are determined to match that. The autumn statement announced £1 billion for broadband and 5G, and we will consult shortly on exactly how that will be spent.

Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

3rd reading: House of Commons & Legislative Grand Committee: House of Commons & Programme motion No. 3: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Monday 28th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

I am looking forward to seeing the data for exactly that reason. In my rural constituency, I can drive for 10 minutes without getting a signal at all—that includes driving past houses—and the same probably applies to many other people. The lived experience is critical to judging whether the figures are broadly correct. I am entirely with my right hon. Friend on that. My job, and our job in the House, is to hold the mobile network operators to account and ensure that they deliver high-quality geographic coverage, whether it is in Rhondda, Welwyn, in Suffolk or, indeed, in Buckinghamshire, Mr Speaker.

[Calum Kerr (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (SNP)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Matt Hancock]

I will take one more intervention on this subject.

[Calum Kerr]

May I make what I hope is a quick, constructive point? May I urge all Members to encourage their constituents to download the Ofcom android app, which is specifically designed to gather data so that we can be better informed, and to publicise it in their constituencies?

[Matt Hancock]

Quite so. As you may say yourself, Mr Speaker, I am not sure that that is entirely a matter for the Bill, but the hon. Gentleman has made his point.

New clauses 21, 22 and 27, tabled by Plaid Cymru and Scottish National party Members, are not necessary, because they call for what is already the position. New clause 21 is not necessary because it is already a requirement that when emergency services network sites are used to provide coverage for the public, they must be made available to all mobile network operators. New clause 22 is not necessary because Ofcom already has the power to impose structural separation on BT Openreach if it considers that that is required. New clause 27 is not necessary because there is already a universal service obligation in the Bill to take high-speed broadband to all premises. I hope that we can use that as the means to deliver the goals that we no doubt share.

As for new clause 26, the Government take the issue of interference with assistive listening devices very seriously, and we will work with Ofcom to take appropriate action when harmful interference with such devices has been identified. I have met representatives of the National Deaf Children’s Society, and I can tell the House that further testing will begin next month and Ofcom will publish its findings by April 2017. I hope that we are making some progress on that important matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Calum Kerr]

I absolutely do agree. I will come on to that point later.

I would contrast the USO measure with last week’s announcements. We have heard the Government say that fibre is the future, but our record in this country on fibre-to-the-home, or fibre-to-the-premises, is pretty woeful. The broadband investment fund announced in a previous Budget had some money put into it, and hundreds of millions of pounds were committed to 5G trials and fibre backbone. All that is welcome, if slightly unambitious, but we have not seen anything specifically for rural areas. We are talking about a fibre and gigabit future in urban areas while telling rural areas that they should settle for 10 megs and a USO. That is not closing the digital divide—it is turning it into a gaping chasm of inequality. A badly implemented USO will not fix the issue but might, through legislation, cement this digital divide.

My new clause aims to address this issue. From the start, as I have looked at potential solutions, the one that I kept coming back to was a voucher alternative. At the Broadband World Forum, a representative from the Independent Networks Cooperative Association said that if we introduce a voucher scheme, we turn a universal service obligation into a universal service opportunity. In our constituencies we have highly motivated groups of people who will, yes, okay, maybe on day one, be happy with 10 megs because if they have been living with 1 meg it will be transformational, but quickly see that they are being left behind and be very unhappy about it. Although the Bill includes provision to revisit this, it does not specify when, and these people will be left further and further behind. The idea of a voucher scheme was endorsed by INCA chairman David Cullen, who said:

“The principle of a Universal Service Obligation is an outdated concept in a sector focused on significant growth and could well translate into a ‘ceiling’…a voucher scheme for premises could be far more effective.”

The Minister did not deal with this new clause in his opening remarks. I urge the Government to embrace the option of a voucher alternative to empower our rural communities, who, as I know from my own community, want to go further. They understand technology. They will put in fibre-to-the-home, providing a much faster solution. This is not a one-size-fits-all—

[Matt Hancock]

I did address this point. I said that the USO contained in the Bill will get high-speed broadband everywhere. Furthermore, a broadband voucher scheme does not require legislation. In fact, we have had one in the past without legislation. This new clause is therefore unnecessary.

[Calum Kerr]

I thank the Minister for that intervention. He makes a point that I forgot to make, which is that there is previous history in this area. Broadband Delivery UK managed a voucher scheme that was phenomenally successful. Perhaps I have become a cynic far too quickly in this place, but if the Government do not put this in the Bill, I do not believe it will happen. I will therefore press the new clause to a vote. We should ensure that as the Government say that fibre—

[Matt Hancock]

As an example of the fact that we can do this through non-legislative means, not only did we have such a scheme in the past, but at the autumn statement last week we announced that we are to consult on a new one. I think that that takes care of the concerns behind the new clause.

Release of Spectrum Band

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Tuesday 15th November 2016 Westminster Hall

[Matt Hancock]

We expect to auction mobile licences for the 700 MHz band in late 2018 or 2019. It will be for Ofcom to conduct those auctions. The hon. Gentleman can see that the Government’s existing policy is to insist on licence conditions on mobile coverage. We are clear about the need for broad mobile coverage and the need to hold the mobile network operators’ feet to the fire on their licence conditions. Some licence conditions go further than 90% geographic coverage—not least those of EE, because it has the emergency services licence—and also include road coverage, to make sure that we get not simply geographical coverage but coverage of the geography where people use phones, which, along with premises, is on the roads.

The hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk mentioned the Faroes. I am meeting Jan Ziskasen from the Faroe Islands Government tomorrow to understand more about what they have done. Areas of sparsity with similar geographies to some parts of Scotland can always give us a greater understanding of what can be used to deliver connectivity in those geographies. I am enormously looking forward to that meeting and to hearing what more we can do.

The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley asked a number of specific questions. First, she asked whether we expect availability by 2020. The answer is broadly yes, we do. As I said, the auctions will take place beforehand, but we want to get on with this as soon as we make the switchover. I have answered her question on coverage being included in licence conditions; that is existing Government policy.

The hon. Lady asked a question about maximising revenue. She said that we should not maximise revenue first and foremost, but should instead look to the benefits of productivity. If only that had been the approach of the last Labour Government, perhaps the list of countries that we are behind would not be so long.

Finally, the hon. Lady asked whether we will work with EU partners. Yes, of course we will. I will be travelling to the Telecoms Council myself next month to make sure that while we are a member of the European Union, we continue to work with our European partners to get the very best connectivity for the whole country.

[Calum Kerr]

This is a happy, consensual debate, is it not? The Minister almost gave my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) a positive commitment—he managed to row back as fast as possible, but the direction was still positive. Does he support the concept of “use it or share it”, and will he consider it as another potential solution in rural areas, where existing spectrum licence holders are clearly not providing a service?

[Matt Hancock]

That is a matter for Ofcom to consider in setting the details of how the spectrum is auctioned. It will of course consult on exactly how that auction takes place, and I am sure it will have noted the hon. Gentleman’s comments.

I hope that I have answered all the questions asked today. This is a very important issue, if a rather technical one. I am grateful for the interest in it—

Digital Economy Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 11th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 1st November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Matt Hancock]

We have made it clear that the UK needs a competitive and effective market in telecoms, and I have made it clear that fibre is the future. Fibre means fibre. The amendment seeks to ensure Ofcom has the power to impose structural separation on BT Openreach if Ofcom considers it necessary. There is already a process available to Ofcom to pursue structural separation should it be considered necessary. The Committee knows that Ofcom is currently considering how Openreach should be structured. We have made it clear that Ofcom should take whatever action it considers necessary and that structural separation remains an option.

Of course, in a rapidly moving sector such as communications, circumstances can change. We regularly review whether Ofcom has the right powers. We will need to do that in the context of our exit from the European Union, but at present Ofcom has the appropriate powers that it needs and it will continue to have them. With that explanation, I hope the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment.

[Calum Kerr]

I thank the Minister for his comments, but the position in relation to having the powers is a weak answer. If there were a separation, we would enter into uncertainty without explicit powers. I will not press the motion to a vote, but I encourage the Government, as the picture on the EU evolves, to be clearer, and if they think it necessary to introduce something specific, so that we have a measure available.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 36

Bill caps for all mobile phone contracts

‘(1) A telecommunications service provider supplying a contract relating to a hand-held mobile telephone must, at the time of entering into such a contract, allow the end-user the opportunity to place a financial cap on the monthly bill under that contract.

(2) A telecommunications service provider under subsection (1) must not begin to supply a contracted service to an end-user unless the end-user has either—

(a) requested the monthly cap be put in place and agreed the amount of that cap, or

(b) decided, on a durable medium, not to put a monthly cap in place.

(3) The end-user should bear no cost for the supply of any service above the cap if the provider has—

(a) failed to impose a cap agreed under subsection (2)(a),

(b) introduce, or amend, a cap following the end-user’s instructions under subsection (2)(b), or

(c) removed the cap without the end-user’s instructions or has removed it without obtaining the consumer’s express consent on a durable medium under subsection (2).’—(Louise Haigh.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

Digital Economy Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 10th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 27th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Calum Kerr]

The briefing we received recognises the Government’s line on the current approach but disagrees with the contention. It actually puts forward a form of words that it believes, if inserted, would not risk any issue with the relevant European directive. Have the Government considered that? I am happy to forward that form of words if the Minister does not know what I am referring to; it is in the latest briefing.

[Matt Hancock]

Again, I am happy to look at any detailed representation, but we have had significant and extensive discussions about this, including with techUK and others. On the SME point that techUK specifically raised, that was covered in the impact assessment that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley asked about. It was published on 12 May; on page 15 it sets out the concern that, if we had a separate system for SMEs, we would end up with a yet more complicated process, as opposed to a simpler one, which I think would be an overall benefit.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

I hope that I will still agree with new clause 34 then; I think I will, because I am so enthusiastic about it.

[Calum Kerr]

Feel free to carry on, Minister, if you are enjoying yourself.

[Matt Hancock]

I thank the hon. Gentleman.

I hope that, having answered the hon. Lady’s questions in relation to amendments that I think are intended to probe and in anticipation of our coming on to new clause 34, she will be able to withdraw her amendment.

[Calum Kerr]

I am sorry for the miscommunication; it was my fault. Actually, having read the newspapers at the weekend, I think that the Minister may be in agreement on extending the penalties in relation to nuisance callers to company directors; I certainly read a number of quotes about the importance of doing that. What I am unclear about—perhaps he will enlighten me—is whether he intends to accept our new clause or whether he has another vehicle by which he intends to make this change. I would be grateful to him if he intervened, because there is no point in my—

[Matt Hancock]

We agree with moving liability on to individuals rather than on to companies, because sometimes those companies will be closed down, bought up and restarted under a different name very quickly. We propose to do that by tabling a Government amendment.

[Calum Kerr]

I thank the Minister for that intervention. I had thought that I might have done his homework for him already with new clause 34. Perhaps he might consider embracing the cross-party consensual nature that might return after the BBC fun and games—except on tobacco ads, which certainly go too far.

[Matt Hancock]

Before I was stopped by Mr Streeter, I was going to say precisely that—namely that I have just announced that we intend to introduce such measures. We need to consult on the exact details of those measures, which is why I do not propose to accept the new clause, but we intend to put into place something of similar substance.

[Calum Kerr]

Excellent. I thank the Minister for that and given that comment, rather than outlining the full case for why I think accepting new clause 34 is a good idea, I will embrace the positivity and happily sit down, without pressing my new clause, knowing that the Government will introduce a similar measure.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

I propose after consultation to bring in measures to ensure that the liability is on the individual. That will significantly strengthen the hand of the regulator here, alongside the code of practice, but I am open to working with the hon. Gentleman and others to see what else we can do for calls that originate from overseas. I entirely understand the problem. Ultimately, we are trying to stop as much spamming as possible, while allowing people to communicate and use modern means of communication.

[Calum Kerr]

Last week I had a call from a director from Ofcom, who had just returned from south-east Asia, discussing nuisance calls. As the Government go around the world setting up their new trade agreements, perhaps they might consider this one of the clauses they build in around nuisance calls.

[Matt Hancock]

That is an interesting suggestion. Of course, this will apply to overseas companies; it is just that, as we have discussed in other parts of the Bill, that is harder to enforce against.

Finally, there was discussion about charities making nuisance calls. Charities, and agents on their behalf, were covered in the Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Act 2016, which introduced a new regulator specifically for charities in this space. With those explanations, I urge that the clause stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 77 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 78 to 81 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 82

Commencement

--- Later in debate ---

[Calum Kerr]

We seem to have raced through this final section, for which I commend all right hon. and hon. Members. We do not need the gift of foresight to know that the Minister will tell me, “We do not do reviews in this Government. We expect someone else to do them for us.” Let me briefly explain why I support new clause 1, which I will not press to a vote, and I will then touch on new clause 20.

We heard an excellent articulation in the evidence sessions of the value of third-party infrastructure as an effective means of maximising communication roll-out across the country. Today, about a third of the UK’s 27,000 masts are independently operated, and that contrasts with about 60% of masts globally. In EU countries, it is 80%. Independent analysis has shown that independently operated towers across Europe and North America host at least twice as many masts as when those towers are operated by the mobile companies themselves. As we map a new digital future—we are all excited to see what the new Minister does with his digital strategy for the country—we should be conscious of the fact that we will need a lot more masts. We know that he knows that. Technology such as 5G is higher frequency and covers shorter distances. Unless we want our country to resemble the back of a hedgehog, we need to look at effective ways of minimising the number of masts while maximising the coverage we need.

With the approach in the new clause, we are looking to encourage the Government to be consciously competent and to come forward with a model or measures that will enhance the further deployment of shared infrastructure, so that as we deploy 5G and embrace the technology of the future, we minimise the impact on our environment.

New clause 20 is certainly a different take on this area. It is well meaning but not quite right, to be honest. I do not think the idea of a universal service applies in the same way for mobile as it does for wired. It is probably something we will evolve to as the worlds of wired and wireless networks intertwine and overlap going forward. I would be happy to support the new clause, but I would welcome some more discussion.

I hope the Government and the new Minister and team recognise that third-party infrastructure will be central to driving the coverage model in rural and urban areas as we look to put a lot more masts out there to deliver the potential speeds and capability of the technology in the future. If the Minister will not give me a review, perhaps he will at least throw me a bone or two that things are beyond, “Hopefully the Select Committee will do a review.” The Select Committee has only so much bandwidth to do it.

[Matt Hancock]

I can do better than merely asking the Select Committee, although I do think that Select Committees do important reports and should not be denigrated. Ofcom has also been given a statutory duty to provide a report to the Secretary of State every three years on the state of the UK’s communications infrastructure, including the extent to which UK networks share infrastructure. That is precisely what the new clause asks for as a one-off. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the reports will happen regularly. The next three-yearly report is due in 2017, which is the same time that new clause 1 specifies for its review.

Moving on to new clause 20, we recognise the importance of improving mobile coverage. I support the intention behind it, but I do not think a statutory review is necessary at this time. We already have building blocks in place to deliver extensive mobile connectivity, and it is happening. The changes that we have debated today will give Ofcom the ability to provide data to ensure that we know how effective mobile connectivity is. We have legally binding licence obligations to ensure that each mobile operator provides voice coverage to at least 90% of the UK land mass. Taken together, 98% of the UK will have a mobile signal by the end of 2017, according to the agreements.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

We just changed the rules so that instead of being restricted to producing such reports three times a year, Ofcom can do so whenever it thinks it appropriate. That will provide for Ofcom to be able to do so as much as possible, but I committed earlier today to having a connected nations report before the end of this year. I hope that that provides for what the hon. Lady seeks in new clause 20 and that the hon. Members will not press their new clauses.

[Calum Kerr]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Graham Stuart.)

Digital Economy Bill (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 8th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 25th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Calum Kerr (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (SNP)]

I feel that I should thank you for your chairmanship, Mr Streeter; I feel a bit left out, given that the Opposition spokesperson did it. Thank you so much for your chairmanship. It is nice to see a smile at the top table.

I will add a couple of brief points. I am surprised the hon. Member for Cardiff West earned only £10.60. I thought he displayed some creativity. I have never heard so many song lyrics or titles; I do not know if he is on commission for that. Hopefully, journalists across the country are googling—that is appropriate, given what we are discussing today—for what content he has earned £10.60, so that number may go up.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

Other search engines are available.

[Calum Kerr]

Indeed—I thank the Minister. There is an interesting point here about the importance of parity across channels. The Scottish National party is clear in supporting the repeal of section 73. The hon. Member for Cardiff West made a point about the many different ways in which people can access content, which he articulated well, and the importance of being consciously competent across all areas when making legislative change. I am interested in hearing the Minister’s remarks on that.

We noted earlier the concerns specifically in relation to Virgin as a large cable company, but I want to put on the record very clearly that we absolutely support the Government in repealing section 73. As these models change and people access content in different ways, the ability for them to earn revenue from the content they produce becomes all the more important, because they cannot necessarily rely on its being consumed in a way that ensures that advertising revenues naturally flow. I emphasise that we support this, we welcome the Government’s bringing it forward but we would like a bit more clarity from the Minister around the broader picture.

[Matt Hancock]

I am delighted to respond to these points. I take this opportunity to commend the Opposition Front Benchers and, in particular, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley, for how she proved, earlier in Committee, how it is possible to put points with great clarity and precision, such that on Thursday we rose early—somehow that seems unlikely today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

Hear, hear!

[Calum Kerr]

Oh, the curse of a word of praise from the Minister! I thank him none the less.

I support these two excellent new clauses tabled by Labour Members. I was delighted to hear the Minister say in response to the debate on the last clause, “We strongly support public service broadcasting.” Hot on the heels of that, the Opposition have provided him with an opportunity to put his money where his mouth is and show that he truly does. I think—at least, I hope—that we all support public service broadcasting, but there has been a lot of chat in this place about the PSB funding settlement and about it not encroaching on competition. Let us push beyond that to consider how to support public service broadcasters. Let us find a way to ensure that they maintain their place in an adapting world.

I will touch briefly on both clauses. New clause 14, on the review of listed events, is close to my heart. I note that the football World cup is one of them; I do not know whether we can table an amendment to ensure that Scotland has a chance of getting there—

Digital Economy Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 7th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 25th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Calum Kerr]

I thank the Minister for his explanation. I know that he and the Government are not fans of amendments that would oblige them to do a report to see how they are doing in the area. However, is there a way of looking at it on an ongoing basis, so that progress can be monitored and we can see how many prosecutions are actually occurring under the current legislation?

[Matt Hancock]

That would be an excellent idea, if the Culture, Media and Sport Committee chose to take it up. That is what Select Committees are for; I know the hon. Gentleman does not like them, but I think they are excellent at scrutinising the Government and everything that is going on. With that response, I ask the hon. Member for Cardiff West to withdraw his amendment.

Digital Economy Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 6th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 20th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Louise Haigh]

Given that the Government have been so intransigent on the sensible suggestions for how their proposals could be strengthened, certainly on the issue of internet service provider blocking, I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. The Minister keeps saying that he does not want to be too prescriptive, but we argue that the phrase “on a commercial basis” is too prescriptive and limits the powers of the age-verification regulator. Given the broad support for additional powers, we want the age-verification regulator and any other regulator involved in enforcement to come back to the House and tell us what additional powers they need to make this work. There are significant loopholes in the Bill and it could have serious unintended consequences for our young people. We completely support the SNP amendment.

[Matt Hancock]

I entirely understand the enthusiasm for commencement, and I have given the commitment that we would expect it within 12 months of Royal Assent. I hope that that deals with the demand for a timing of commencement to be put on the face of the Bill. Unfortunately, that renders the SNP amendment slightly impractical, because it would require a review within 12 months of Royal Assent, but if the Act commences only 12 months after Royal Assent, a review at that point might not show as much progress as we would hope.

[Calum Kerr]

I like the way the Minister is engaging. Is he telling me that he likes the idea, but it is just that we have worded it slightly wrongly? If that is the case, I would happily move the review 12 months on, if that is what he is suggesting.

[Matt Hancock]

Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman has lost his opportunity for that because the deadline for tabling amendments has passed. We should have an enduring assessment of the effectiveness of the Bill and an ongoing review of how effective the policy is. Select Committees have an important role to play in doing that. I resist the amendment on the grounds that it is impractical, because of the timings I have discussed, and because it is far better that such matters are reviewed constantly, rather than just on a one-off.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

We thought you might be the regulator for part 4, Mr Stringer.

I suppose this is the difference between the two sides of the House: for the Opposition, an ongoing review means never; for the Government, an ongoing review means always.

[Calum Kerr]

My background is in telecoms, latterly as a global consultant coaching front-line leaders. People always said to me, “Oh yeah, we always have reviews,” but unless there is a cadence on it and it is put down in black and white, it is not done properly. They would not do it in the business world, and Opposition Members would not do it; perhaps Government Members are a bit more blasé than we are.

[Matt Hancock]

That tells us all we need to know about consultants. There we are. I commit that we will keep the effectiveness of the legislation under review. I know that that will happen anyway because I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes is not going to let this one go.

Digital Economy Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 5th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 20th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Matt Hancock]

No, I do not, but I do think it is useful for the period in which contracts can be cancelled to be limited. The law currently provides for that.

Amendment 84 seeks to define the parameters of any general condition that Ofcom sets regarding compensation to customers. It is our intention that providers should offer prompt and proportionate compensation when their services do not meet agreed standards. It is right that any decision by Ofcom to set general conditions needs to be based on evidence drawn from its consultation process and applied proportionately. In June, Ofcom issued a call for input on the aim and scope of the automatic compensation scheme, and it will consult on the introduction of the regime in early 2017. We support Ofcom in that approach. I think that the way the clause is drafted is the right way to drive the policy, but until we have the benefit of Ofcom’s consultation, it would be wrong to constrain the parameters of a general compensation condition.

With that explanation, and given my point that there is already a time-limited period in which contracts can be cancelled, I hope that hon. Members will withdraw their amendments.

[Calum Kerr (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (SNP)]

I am disappointed but not surprised that the Minister will not consider the change. There seems to be an unwillingness to amend the Bill other than by adopting one of the hundreds of Government amendments. I hoped that we might enter into a more constructive spirit.

We agree that the clause itself is a good move. As I said in my opening remarks, there is an opportunity to go to a high level of granularity—I contrasted the black-and-white, binary nature of telephony to the complex world of broadband—and I would like the Minister to assure us that the devolved Administrations will play a key role in that. Scotland is a disproportionately rural environment, and we must ensure that the rural voice is heard, although these issues are not unique to Scotland, or to my constituency, or that of my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey. This must go to a granular level and incentivise good performance, rather than provide compensation, as is currently set out in the Bill. All that our constituents want is a good level of service, rather than some money back for poor service.

--- Later in debate ---

[Calum Kerr]

Spectrum licensing is our most effective tool for ensuring we get the coverage model we want. The form of the code will help, but it is through licensing that we will drive the level of coverage we want. Will the Minister confirm that the Government will leave nothing off the table in that? One option might be taking back spectrum where appropriate—for example, in rural areas that cannot be covered, as has happened in the US.

[Matt Hancock]

Of course, the management of spectrum needs to be as efficient as possible. The new dynamic spectrum management in clause 8, which we just agreed to, will help to deal with white space—spectrum that is not used but could be. New technology allows that to be used far more efficiently. I am delighted that we got unanimous support for clause 8. On clause 9 and setting out a set of strategic priorities, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman’s comments will be taken on board.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 9 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 10

Penalties for contravention of wireless telegraphy licences

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

The amendments will amend the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 to extend the time limit for bringing prosecutions for some summary offences—for example, those relating to unauthorised use of wireless telegraphy equipment. Amendment 10 makes provision about when proceedings in Scotland are deemed to have commenced for the purposes of the extended time limits. Amendments 8, 9 and 11 make minor changes to clarify the drafting.

[Calum Kerr]

Some of the amendments specifically relate to the law in a way that goes back to my earlier point. Will the Minister confirm whether the Scottish Administration have been consulted on this issue, given that it is clearly a devolved matter?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes—although I have had no discussions with them at a ministerial level about the amendments, I understand that discussions have taken place between officials. The effect of the amendments will be to make the law work better, so I hope they will have cross-party support.

Amendment 8 agreed to.

Amendments made: Government amendment 9, in clause 14, page 17, line 18, leave out “Subsections (3A) and (3B)” and insert

“Section 41(7) and subsection (3B) above”.

Subsection (3C), inserted in section 107 of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 by the clause, lists enactments displaced by the time limits mentioned in subsections (3A) and (3B). Subsection (3A) merely refers to section 41(7), and the amendment substitutes a direct reference to that provision for the reference to subsection (3A).

Government amendment 10, in clause 14, page 17, line 26, at end insert—

“(3D) In relation to proceedings in Scotland, subsection (3) of section 136 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 (date when proceedings deemed to be commenced for the purposes of that section) applies also for the purposes of section 41(7) and subsection (3B) above.”.

The amendment adds provision about when proceedings in Scotland are deemed to be commenced for the purposes of the time limits in section 41(7) and new subsection (3B) of section 107 of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006.

Government amendment 11, in clause 14, page 17, line 31, at end insert—

“() for subsection (8) substitute—

“(8) For further provision about prosecutions see section 107.””.—(Matt Hancock.)

Existing section 41(8) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 applies to section 41(7) and is superseded by section 107(3C) inserted by the clause (see amendment 9). Amendment 10 also inserts provision applying to section 41(7) into section 107. Amendment 11 therefore substitutes a subsection referring the reader to section 107.

Clause 14, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 15

Internet pornography: requirement to prevent access by persons under the age of 18

Digital Economy Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 18th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Calum Kerr]

We welcome anything that increases mobile coverage commitments. The Government have done a deal with mobile operators for increased coverage, but the people who will pay for that increased coverage are the local authorities, the Forestry Commission and the landowners—they will suddenly find their rents drop through the floor to nothing. The Government could have revisited the annual licence fees that they collect from the mobile operators and done a deal on that basis, rather than making someone else pay for the increased coverage.

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Gentleman leaps ahead to the next clause, and no doubt we will have that debate, but I think it is entirely fair for landowners and those on whose land the infrastructure is provided to get a similar return on the value of the land to them, rather than on the value once the land has this infrastructure. That is the change that we will be making because, ultimately, we have put in place a deal to get better service for customers, to get more geographic coverage and to reduce the costs of rolling that out, which is the right deal for the country.

As the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley calls for exactly what is to be delivered and as there are other clauses in the Bill to ensure that that delivery happens, I hope that the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk will withdraw his amendment.

[Calum Kerr]

I am willing to withdraw the amendment because the document that came out last week provides a level of clarity. There remains a concern that the Bill is light and passes off the detail, which is both an opportunity and disconcerting. This is an opportunity to do something transformational with broadband, but the Bill is not transformational in itself. It will come down to the detail. We were keen to see more specific clarification in the document, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

I think that those lessons were learned about three or four years ago, so I do not think that the new clause is needed. That is why, in the second phase of the BDUK contracts, we managed to succeed in getting six different providers to bid successfully, precisely because we learned the lessons from what I agree was an unsatisfactory outcome of the first contract. So the hon. Lady is right; it is just that I think that that work has been done and so it is not necessary to legislate on it.

The hon. Lady also made the point about open data on where cabinets have been put in place and part-fibre broadband or superfast broadband has been delivered. BT has given me a commitment that it will make those data openly available. I have yet to see them, but I look forward very much to their being made public very soon; I was given that commitment some weeks ago by BT and I am surprised that they are not yet public. I will take that up with BT immediately after this—I wonder whether it might have heard what I have just said.

Given those assurances both on consultation with the devolved Administrations and on delivery of a competitive regime, with distortions to competition taken into account by Ofcom, I hope that hon. Members will withdraw or not press the amendments.

[Calum Kerr]

I thank the Minister for his words and I take on board his comments, but I will not withdraw the amendment. The challenge is the degree to which consultation is effective and actually feeds into the process. I know from personal experience, having met Ofcom and spoken to the Scottish Government, that much of the engagement to date between the Scottish Government and Ofcom on areas such as the USO has been tokenistic. It needs to go much further.

I have myself facilitated a workshop with the Scottish Government, the Scottish Futures Trust and Ofcom. Sharon White has met Fergus Ewing, the Minister responsible for these matters in Scotland. I think that we have to be far more explicit in legislation, because that will ensure not just a tokenistic consultation but proper engagement in the process so that in areas where the Scottish Government have set a higher target—30 megabits, superfast, for 100% of the Scottish population—the USO is designed in a way that supports and helps that. If it is done in a UK-wide, pragmatic sense, that will not help, so I will press the amendment to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

We have had support of spirit throughout this sitting. The amendments and the new clause are all about reviews of and reports on progress. I have reviewed my broadband this weekend, and I can report that while I was looking at myself discussing the importance of broadband in East Anglia on a local TV programme, I was actually under my desk because my broadband went down. I know how frustrating it is when one’s broadband goes wrong. I am very grateful to the BT engineers who are working to fix it right now. That is my report.

The best comment was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty about the Select Committee. Reports and reviews are important, but the Select Committee is there to ensure that Parliament has its say. More than that, as Ofcom carries out its consultations, it will of course report on progress.

I wish to pick up on a few of the comments that were made. The hon. Member for City of Chester, which is a great city and the city of my birth—the Bill is all about connectivity and we have been making all sorts of connections in this sitting—made the argument very strongly for the importance of not only getting better connectivity, but describing it right. I will have no truck with people who say they are providing a fibre solution when, in fact, it is a part-fibre solution. Fibre-to-the-cabinet is not fibre and anybody who says so is taking people for fools. We should talk about fibre when we mean a full fibre connection that goes all the way from the fibre backbone into the premises. Anything short of that is merely part-fibre.

That point demonstrated some of the confusion from Opposition Front Benchers and shows why it is so important to get these things right, instead of just calling for a report when that is already going to happen. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley called for use of G.fast, which is an important interim technology. However, she then said, “and therefore, it is important we have more fibre.” G.fast is not a fibre technology; it is a copper-based technology. While it is important and useful interim technology that will undoubtedly increase speeds, it is not full fibre.

[Calum Kerr]

The Minister is slightly taking liberties there. The reality is that G.fast is distance-constrained to about 300 to 400 metres, so fibre will have to be pushed much further. I am sure that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley is aware of at. It comes ack to the same principles: we need more ambition and we need to push fibre further. Yes, G.fast will have a place, but it will not fix my or my colleagues’ rural challenges.

[Matt Hancock]

Exactly, absolutely right. We are seeing the long-feared Labour-SNP alliance in action. The hon. Gentleman is right that G.fast is a useful technology but it is not a full fibre technology and is, by physics, distance-constrained, although BT continues to do important work on driving as much delivery out of copper as possible.

There is one other point that it is important for the Committee to consider: there was a simultaneous call from the Opposition for the statement of intent to be included in the Bill and for there to be flexibility in the speed of the USO. These two things are inconsistent; it takes time to change primary legislation. It is incredibly important that we can revise the USO potentially—and hopefully—upwards. It is wrong to set a USO speed now for several years hence. I think we agree on that. We should not, therefore, put the speed on the face of the Bill.

The Scottish Government have said they want 30 megabits per second by 2021. We, of course, want the USO before then and we want the speed to reflect the reality of the time. Demands are increasing very quickly, so I would not want to put a figure on it for five years hence, as the Scottish Government have done. That is a mistake and it is far better to do it as we are planning in this Bill.

[Matt Hancock]

I am delighted to have that clarification. I am also glad that the hon. Lady welcomed the fact that Ofcom is doing the consultation, which is necessary before we can put those details in place. The way the provisions are structured in the Bill is the right way to proceed.

In ensuring that we get the best possible broadband connectivity, we must make sure that we have both a vision of the future with high-speed and superfast—and then ultrafast—connectivity, and flexibility to get there in the most cost-efficient way possible. That unites the Committee in purpose, and the Bill as it stands provides for it.

Finally, following the mention of the Labour Government by the Opposition, I will not rise to any partisan points other than to note that in 2003, the then Labour Government legislated to set a USO. They set the USO in stone in legislation and instead of including a review clause, they set it at 28 kilobits per second. Let that be a lesson to anyone who wants to put more on the face of the Bill. It is far better to ensure that we can constantly keep pace with technology, as the Bill does.

[Calum Kerr]

I am enjoying this; the debate is getting a little more spirited. I hope that some Government Committee members will vote the wrong way for their party and the right way for the people of this country and their connectivity. We are not advocating that a figure is put in the Bill. At no point have we suggested that. We have been advocating greater ambition and a desire to ensure that the USO is designed and rolled out to meet the demands of our constituents and the expectations of the country. Unless the Minister or anyone else can tell me that this place is particularly good at doing perfect legislation that always gets the desired outcome, it seems eminently sensible that we put in place a review process. On that basis, I am happy to withdraw the amendment and instead support amendment 82.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

I repeat what I have just said: the floor of 100 homes has come down to 30 homes for fibre connections, but all new buildings will be required to have access to a superfast connection from 1 January. Those points have been taken on board.

[Calum Kerr]

Will the Minister clarify, especially given his comments earlier about what fibre means, whether that is fibre to the premises or access to superfast over copper?

[Matt Hancock]

To channel the Prime Minister, fibre means fibre. If hon. Members want to know what fibre means, it means fibre.

On the point about measuring BT and BDUK on take-up not access, both BT and BDUK are measured on take-up as well as access. Both are important. In fact, the contracts have take-up embedded in them, because the clawback from higher take-up allows money to be spent on further roll-out. The contracts that are being rolled out at the moment are from that clawback. The hon. Lady is therefore absolutely right that both take-up and access are important, and in the county-by-county figures from BDUK we have both take-up and access.

I also strongly agree with the hon. Lady on advertising. The Advertising Standards Authority has consulted for some time on descriptions of both “up to” speeds and pricing arrangements, both of which can be wholly misleading. I very much hope that the ASA will come out with new rules shortly—it has been working on that for some time. However, advertising is policed on a non-statutory basis and I think it would be a significant step for us to legislate on that matter because we do not want political interference in the rules around advertising. That is a step that I do not want to take. I do want the ASA to come to its conclusions as soon as possible. I hope that that answers all the questions that were asked on that point.

[Matt Hancock]

Of course there will be parliamentary scrutiny, because the Bill provides for the USO details to be put in place via secondary legislation. There will be scrutiny then and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty pointed out, there will also be the opportunity for Select Committees to scrutinise in their usual way. I hope that without reading the rest of my speech, which is all about how important and wonderful broadband is, the Committee will accept what I have said as a full response.

[Calum Kerr]

Perhaps the Minister missed my request. Will he reassure me that the schemes put in place will be designed to support national commitments such as the Scottish Government’s 30 megabits and other regional commitments? The issue is all down to how the USO is designed. If it is simply put out as a 10 megabit service—take it or leave it—it will not help, whereas a regional, flexible model such as the voucher scheme that BDUK has done before could provide the foundational funding.

[Matt Hancock]

In short, although the precise design is subject to the Ofcom consultation, my view is that the potential in the Bill for the USO is more ambitious than the Scottish Government’s, because theirs is to be delivered later and has already specified a speed. Instead, we have proposals coming in sooner and with uprating built in from the start.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2

General conditions: switching communications provider

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Digital Economy Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Calum Kerr]

Q So that is a, “Yes, if possible, please.” It is okay; do not answer that. You have already answered. My final quick question is this. Although this is not retrospective, is there any case for excluding existing sites, if this is really about building out more network, in terms of the valuation element, given that a lot of those sites are actually on publicly owned land?

Scott Coates: There is certainly a difference in the substance of a transaction when you are approaching a farmer, a sports club, a university or whatever and asking for access to build a new piece of infrastructure where there is new coverage, and you are having that negotiation in the context of a new communications code that has tighter reference points on pricing. You will have more leverage for that conversation. You will still end up, I believe, paying them a rate way in excess of what zero value would be because that is just how you have those conversations, but it will be less than what is paid today, that is for sure, because you have got this new reference point. The substance of that is very different from the substance of a voluntary agreement you entered into with a firm six or seven years ago and that comes up for renewal in two to three years and the infrastructure is already there.

I think it is important that we have a robust set of tools as an industry but, as I mentioned earlier, it is equally if not more important that the industry acts responsibly and avoids behaviour such as forcing situations where they need a new compulsory purchase tool, even though they have already got access today. There is definitely a way of engaging on existing sites that should be a bit different from new sites, as part of a package of trying to maintain the voluntary support of the land and property sector for our industry.

[Matt Hancock]

Q Could you set out in more detail—you have already gone into this a bit—about what you mean when you say that the code should include land owned by the infrastructure providers but not the apparatus, and the distinction there in the written evidence?

Scott Coates: It comes back to this. Under UK property law, anything that affixes to land could be considered land. At the moment, the code effectively is to regulate land coming into the telecom sector, not to regulate the relationships between telecoms companies. It carves out from land the apparatus.

I am advised that there is a risk of ambiguity. That is probably the best way I could describe it. It may be challenged down the line. This is an evolving and dynamic industry where we don’t exactly know the physical things we are going to be deploying in future. There is a risk that some of the things we do might receive a challenge that it is land not apparatus. I do not know.

Is a new runway at Heathrow infrastructure or land because it sits on top of land? Is the national grid transmission network an infrastructure asset or land because it sits on land? It is a fairly technical point. Like all these things, once the lawyers are running around looking at them, they will find concerns.

All we are saying is that we invest over 20 to 30-year horizons. The more clarity that can be provided is helpful. We acknowledge and clearly appreciate the intent behind Government policy to protect investment and passive infrastructure but more clarity around that will only help the investability of what we do.

Digital Economy Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Calum Kerr and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Calum Kerr]

Q Mr Williams, do you think that a tactical, on-demand USO only provided by BT can really provide the strategic outcome—a direction toward “gigabit Britain”—that I think we all agree is a matter of when and not if? If we continue to do this in a piecemeal fashion surely all we are going to do is cement the digital divide, rather than close it.

Sean Williams: To get these networks out to as many premises as possible, by as many providers as possible, through competition and commercial market action is exactly the right solution. To get good networks out to everybody, both mobile as well as fixed, it is important that everybody has an incentive to invest. Through competition and commercial investment, we will get to the answer.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

Q I welcome the commitment from BT to reach 100% of premises by 2020, but I ask for a point of clarification on language. Mr Williams, you referred in the percentages to “fibre” and, separately, to “fibre to the premises”. Can you confirm that by “fibre” you mean a combination of fibre and copper and that by “fibre to the premises” you mean pure fibre? The use of the term “fibre” reflects statistics that I understand mean fibre to the cabinet, so I find confusing the offer to households being “fibre plus copper”. I would be grateful if you clarified that.

Sean Williams: I am happy to. When I use the term “fibre broadband”, I mean fibre to the cabinet, which is a combination of rolling out fibre further into the network but with copper into the end premises. When I use the term “fibre into the premises” I mean fibre all the way into the building. I apologise for being unclear.

When I say we will deliver fibre broadband, it will largely be, in my view, through a combination of fibre and copper, but we are also very positive about fibre to the premises and typically deploy fibre to the premises in all new building sites and in lots of Broadband Delivery UK areas. We are developing fibre to the premises solutions that are particularly targeted at small and medium-sized enterprises. We have made a commitment that we will get ultrafast broadband speeds, which is both fibre and copper, and also fibre-to-the-premises solutions to 1 million SMEs by 2020. We have heard the prioritisation that the Government have put on getting very good broadband speeds to small and medium-sized enterprises and we have made a commitment we will get that to 1 million of them by 2020 as well.