Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Karin Smyth

2nd reading
Monday 27th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

My right hon. Friend is renowned for always speaking good sense, as he did in that intervention. I can go further; I was given an example not too long ago about the frustration of people in Northern Ireland at not being able to secure a supply of trees from Great Britain to plant in the Queen’s canopy to mark the platinum jubilee, because of the threat to the single market. The last time I saw trees uproot and walk across a border was in “Game of Thrones”—I happily commend the “Game of Thrones” studio tour to everybody in this Chamber when they visit Northern Ireland—but that is not a real threat to the EU single market.

The lack of progress and the subsequent failure of the Northern Ireland power-sharing arrangements is exactly why we as a Government must be prepared to act in the best interests of Northern Ireland and for the stability and delivery of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement.

[Karin Smyth]

The Secretary of State talks about the movement of goods. When I was shadow Northern Ireland Minister, I repeatedly asked him, in the run-up to the final decisions, why he did not prepare British businesses better for the agreement he had made. He consistently said, “There is unfettered access, always, both ways.” Why were British businesses not prepared for the deal he agreed?

[Brandon Lewis]

We have delivered unfettered access from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. I appreciate that hon. Lady is talking about where we do have real challenges, with goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. There were flexibilities and vagueness, and some areas of the protocol, in terms of implementation, were not resolved. That was why we had the grace periods, why we had to extend the grace periods and why we now have the standstill. That is exactly why the EU’s offer, which it pretends provides flexibility, is a backwards step from where we are today; and it is why nobody in this House should accept it unless they are determined to do damage to Northern Ireland.

This legislation will fix the practical problems that the protocol has created in Northern Ireland. It will enable us to avoid a hard border, protect the integrity of the United Kingdom and safeguard the EU single market. The right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) spoke at some length—more than half an hour—in his opening remarks, and yet in the totality of those remarks we heard no plan, no proposal and no alternative from the Labour party, just words. The same goes for the hon. Member for Hove.

There were two interesting points, however. The right hon. Member for Tottenham raised Magna Carta to show the importance of treaties. He is right that Magna Carta is an important piece of our history, but he may want to recall that there were 63 clauses in it, and treaties evolve; that is why only four of them remain in place today. He also outlined, and I quote:

“In our discussions, the DUP had consistently said that it wanted a negotiated settlement”.

I gently say to him that that seemed to be a surprise to all the DUP Members, so he learned something else—[Interruption.] He talks from a sedentary position, but he might want to check Hansard.

As I say, what we have heard is an outline of noise without any real proposals or any alternative. Many hon. Members, however, have raised important points around the question of legality, particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) and my hon. Friends the Members for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) and for North Dorset (Simon Hoare). I can assure the House that this Bill is not just necessary, but lawful. Proceeding with this Bill is legal in international law and in support of our prior obligations to the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. The protocol is undermining all three strands of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, as the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) well outlined, and the institutions that underpin it. It is the Government’s assessment that this Bill is currently the only way to provide the means to alleviate the socio-political conditions while continuing to support the protocol’s overall objectives of including and supporting north-south trade and co-operation, in the interests of both the EU and the UK, by ensuring that we protect its single market while protecting the UK’s internal market. These are all aspects of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement.

We recognise that necessity can only exceptionally be invoked in lawfully justified non-performance of international obligations, as was covered very eloquently by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon. This is a genuinely exceptional situation. It is only in the challenging, complex and unique circumstances in Northern Ireland that the Government have decided to bring forth this Bill. It has always been this Government’s position that should the operation of the protocol or withdrawal agreement be deemed to undermine the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, this would take precedence as the prior commitment under international law. That was outlined back in March 2019 by the then Attorney General and the then Secretary of State for the Department for Exiting the European Union. That was not just the understanding of the UK Government; it was the basis on which the protocol was agreed by both parties. The text of the protocol itself is clear that the Belfast/Good Friday agreement should be protected in all its parts. We should all take note of the important and powerful words of Lord Trimble, an architect of the Good Friday agreement.

Many colleagues have raised article 16. We have always reserved the right to take safeguarding measures under article 16 and have made the case that since the summer of last year, the threshold had been met. This Bill is the most effective, efficient and sustainable way to address the far-reaching problems that have arisen as a result of the application of the protocol. Article 16 in itself does not solve the problems in the way this Bill will. It is not only temporary but starts another process.

Hon. Members such as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon and my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) talked about the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly. We have been clear with all parties in Northern Ireland that we do need to see, and I want to see, the Executive back up and running to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland. That has to be a priority for all of us. We want to see that Assembly and Executive as soon as possible. The people of Northern Ireland deserve a stable and accountable devolved Government who deliver on the issues that matter most to them. It is clear from comments today that this Bill is a key component that will see the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly return, as we heard from the right hon. Members for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and for Lagan Valley. I think we can all welcome those comments. This Bill builds on that work. That is what I have heard in the conversations I have had in meeting all party leaders who want to see Stormont return.

The New Decade, New Approach agreement restored the devolved institutions after a three-year impasse, and we all need to work together to uphold the stability that it provided. We as a Government have a strong record in making sure that the institutions are up and running after too many years of hiatus. The New Decade, New Approach agreement, as set out in legislation, provides for a period of up to 24 weeks for Northern Ireland’s political representatives to restore functioning devolved institutions. I expect the parties to make full use of this time to engage with one another in earnest to restore fully functioning devolved institutions and to develop a programme of government that I have written to all the party leaders to encourage work on.

We do have a role on the international stage. The UK has shown what it stands for in the world, not just with rhetoric but with actions, through our extensive support of Ukraine, our unprecedented offer to those fleeing political instability in Hong Kong, and our leadership of international institutions that is demonstrated again this week at the G7 and NATO summits. We have led the way on climate change, as in so many other areas. That is why it is important, and we are focused on ensuring, that we are acting within the bounds of international law. Indeed, we have repeatedly emphasised that it is only the rare, exceptional circumstances in Northern Ireland that make this intervention necessary.

Northern Ireland Protocol

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Karin Smyth

Wednesday 21st July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I recognise and believe that both vice-president Maroš Šefčovič and the wider EU want an outcome that is good for the people of Northern Ireland, as well as, obviously, protecting and defending their own single market. What we are saying is that to do that let us work together to get a solution that means we can deal with the issues that are fundamentally undermining the protocol, affecting its sustainability and detrimentally affecting the people of Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend is absolutely right: for peace, prosperity and sustainability, it is in everybody’s interest to get a positive outcome to the negotiations.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab) [V]]

Trade is the way to the peace and prosperity we need to see in Northern Ireland, and it is ready to make the best of both worlds. This issue needs to be resolved very quickly. The Secretary of State chooses his words very carefully. I think this afternoon he has told us that he respects the epidemiological unit of the island of Ireland and that, in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), the agreement being sought will avoid the need for a veterinary agreement and make it redundant. Is the agreement that the Secretary of State is now seeking a single agreement across the island of Ireland and the island of Britain?

[Brandon Lewis]

The agreement we are seeking is one that recognises that Northern Ireland is fundamentally part of the UK internal market. That means not only the goods which at the moment can move unfettered from Northern Ireland to Great Britain, but getting to a point where goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, to be used and consumed in Northern Ireland, are also able to flow freely. We fully recognise the need to deal with checks and issues for products that are moving into Ireland, and therefore the EU and the single market. We will continue to do that. We think there is a realistic, practical and pragmatic way to do that, so that we avoid all those goods, including from companies that do not even trade within Ireland, having still to go through the same checks as if they were going into the single market. That is just not sustainable. It is not right for businesses and it is not right for consumers in Northern Ireland.

Ballymurphy Inquest Findings

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Karin Smyth

Thursday 13th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments, which I know will be genuine and hopefully well received across Northern Ireland in terms of the need for people to come together. It is right that this week and at this moment in time we are focused on the pain, loss and suffering that the families and the victims of Ballymurphy have experienced for far, far too long. He is right that we must also remember that more than 3,500 people were killed and tens of thousands of people were injured, with families affected across Northern Ireland and beyond, the majority of whom were innocent civilians.

By far the majority of our armed forces acted with honour and focus, and Ballymurphy just highlights what a tragic period in the history of this country the troubles were and why it is so important that we work together, recognising some of the very difficult, painful compromises that have been made over the past few decades to deliver the Good Friday agreement and the peace and prosperity that Northern Ireland has seen since. That should be treasured, and it is something we need to build on and deliver on in the future.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

When I speak to people about Northern Ireland, I apply a simple test, which is, “What if this happened in Bristol, and not Belfast?” Much like the people of Belfast, the people of Bristol sometimes wish they had a different Prime Minister, but he is their Prime Minister, for those of all faiths and none and those of all persuasions and none. As their Prime Minister, it is a disgrace that he is not here to make this statement from that Dispatch Box. He should have done that earlier this week. We all know the symbolism of these Benches and that Dispatch Box.

The Prime Minister has said that he wants to learn from the experience of the past, so I say gently to him that the experience of the past 100 years is that when a British Prime Minister ignores what is going on in Northern Ireland, we see a difficult situation that does not improve. Some of the things he has now said are deeply problematic, such as unilaterally pulling away the Stormont House agreement. If that is the case, he very quickly needs to come here with the Irish Government and all the political parties involved and tell us what will be in its place. That is the true apology that would be right for those poor families from Ballymurphy and across this whole tragedy.

[Brandon Lewis]

I am afraid that what the hon. Lady has just outlined is wrong on a number of points. Apart from the things that I have outlined, the Prime Minister is in contact with the Ballymurphy families directly, and there is the statement he made yesterday and the conversation he had with the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister yesterday.

My point has actually been that I think the principles of Stormont House are hugely important. There is a range of things there that we need to deliver on. The reality is that since 2014 that has not happened, for a range of reasons. There have been learnings, and things have changed since then. There has been a consultation that we need to reflect on and deliver on. We need to make sure that we can deliver on those principles and get on with it, rather than being another seven years down the line with people still talking about something at a time when we are losing people and families are not getting the information that they deserve. At the heart of what we want to do is making sure that we are leading to delivering for victims and that we have reconciliation for people across Northern Ireland. [Interruption.]

Northern Ireland

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Karin Smyth

Tuesday 13th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

Yes, I can give that assurance. I would go a little bit further: even in the conversations I was having in Belfast yesterday with community groups and political leaders, everybody was very determined to continue to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland in the widest sense through the “New Decade, New Approach” agreement. We will not be distracted from delivering on our promises and the actions we took on abortion, as we outlined just a few weeks ago. It comes back to remembering that, with what we saw last week for those few days—hopefully we do not see a recurrence of it—we all have a part to play in encouraging a calm approach to disagreements, but we must not be deterred from the wider work to deliver for Northern Ireland by the actions of criminals, thugs and hooligans.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab) [V]]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement and particularly his comments on integrated education, but may I press him on strand 3 of the Good Friday agreement, which he has talked about? Has he had discussions with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Irish Government about holding another British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference? Such conferences are so crucial to the relationship across these islands and we have not had one for nearly two years.

[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Lady makes a fair point. The British-Irish Council has met regularly and continues to do so—it met in November last year and has met regularly, annually. The British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, which did not meet between February 2007 and July 2018, has met three times since then. We will of course look for the appropriate time for the next meeting of the BIIGC, especially in the context of ensuring the strengthening of the bilateral relationship between the UK and Ireland now that we have left the EU—I have spoken to the Irish Foreign Minister about that—but we also need to be clear that policing is a devolved matter so falls outside the remit of the BIIGC.

Abortion in Northern Ireland

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Karin Smyth

Thursday 25th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

As I have said, the legal duties imposed by a significant majority of Parliament in mid-2019 are such that I have an ongoing role legally in this issue, and that duty did not fall away with the restoration of devolved government in Northern Ireland. My clear preference is and has always been that the Department of Health takes responsibility for delivering this healthcare, and to that end, we have given every opportunity and offered support to the Minister of Health and his Department to take this forward for more than a year now, but no progress has been made. While Parliament considers these regulations, we will continue to engage with the Minister of Health and the Executive to try to find a way forward over the coming weeks before any direction is considered to be given.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab) [V]]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s clear reference to the duty on him and welcome his personal work to learn of these harrowing cases; I totally agree that one journey made, particularly in an epidemic, is far too much. Does he agree that the United Kingdom seeks to be a beacon across the world for the rights of women and girls and supports many countries in access to healthcare, including abortions, and that the continued lack of this service within the United Kingdom is a stain on our reputation? I know that, as a strong Unionist, he is keen to assert that. Does he agree that getting this sorted now and working with Northern Ireland is critical to the future of the United Kingdom and the role that we want to play in the world?

[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Lady makes an important and powerful point, which does not surprise me, because I know that she has worked hard on this issue and been a strong proponent of it for some time, including in her previous role as shadow Minister for Northern Ireland. I commend her for the work she has done, particularly with the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office. I know that she has always been a fulsome supporter of ensuring that women and girls in Northern Ireland get access to the same quality healthcare that they would elsewhere in the United Kingdom. She is quite right that that allows the United Kingdom to continue to lead globally in making the case for ensuring that women and girls around the world get the good-quality healthcare that they rightly deserve.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Karin Smyth

Wednesday 2nd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

I can confirm that we are very keen to give as much guidance and information to businesses as early as possible. We are committed, as I said, to providing Northern Ireland’s businesses with unfettered access to the rest of the UK market. I am very clear about what that means. It means no import customs declarations as goods enter the rest of the UK from Northern Ireland. It means no safety or security declarations as goods enter the rest of the UK from Northern Ireland, no tariffs to be applied to Northern Ireland goods entering the rest of the United Kingdom in any circumstances, no customs checks, no new regulatory checks and no additional approvals required for placing goods on the market in the rest of the United Kingdom. For further reassurance, I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that we will introduce legislation for unfettered access shortly, and we will continue to provide that guidance.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

I listened carefully to the very good questions put by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson), but I do not think that that will reassure businesses. The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee was very clear about what we already knew: the movement of goods from Britain to Northern Ireland will be subject to a number of administrative requirements; businesses will trade at a competitive disadvantage; and consumers in Northern Ireland are likely to see increased prices as a result. The economic facts are—and this is a real worry—that, for a population of 1.9 million, the burden on British firms will be too much, and they will cease wanting to export in large numbers to Northern Ireland. Export health certificates are a major concern and a major cost. I will check the record, but I think the Secretary of State just said that there will be more formal guidance. He has his own view. That is not an agreement, and there are additional costs, so what will the costs be for those businesses?

[Brandon Lewis]

I did say that notes for guidance will be available from 1 November this year. We are very clear that we are one single market—we are one customs union within the United Kingdom—and that is why we are very clear about the fact that we want unfettered access and we will deliver unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to Great Britain. We have already said that there will be some limited checks from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. We have announced the trader support scheme. The guidance that we issued just before the recess was warmly welcomed by Northern Ireland businesses. We continue to work with them so that, as we develop our processes, we ensure that there is good, smooth, fast, efficient delivery, as the protocol outlines, that does not disrupt the lives of people in Northern Ireland, in a way that works for business as well as the people of Northern Ireland.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Karin Smyth

Wednesday 24th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

My hon. Friend asks an important question. Our top priority is to protect the Belfast Good Friday agreement and the gains of the peace process to preserve Northern Ireland’s place as a key part of the UK. Our approach is at all times guided by these priorities and sets out how we will meet our obligations in the protocol. The Command Paper that we published in May outlines how the protocol can be implemented in a flexible and proportionate way to protect the interests of people and businesses in Northern Ireland, as well as the whole UK, and indeed the EU. The protocol puts legal obligations on both sides and makes it clear that it is for both the UK and the EU to respect Northern Ireland’s integral place in the UK customs territory. We stand ready to work with the EU in a collaborative and constructive way to uphold the integral role that Northern Ireland has in our community and the role of the Northern Ireland Executive.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

Since Patrick was a boy, trade across these islands has been critical to our economies in all parts of these islands. Trade for businesses is worth some £14 billion with Northern Ireland and £35 billion with Ireland. What guidance are the Government giving to British businesses about the different rules they have agreed with Northern Ireland and on trade with the Republic as part of the European Union?

[Brandon Lewis]

I would just say that if the hon. Lady has a read of the Command Paper, she will see that it outlines our position on the protocol. As I said earlier, we will be publishing guidance for businesses shortly. The key issue for businesses in Northern Ireland is that they will have unfettered access to the UK as part of the UK’s internal market.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Karin Smyth

Wednesday 13th May 2020 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

My right hon. Friend is right. I want to put this in the clearest possible terms: Northern Ireland businesses will have unfettered access to the market of the United Kingdom and across GB. This is something, as he rightly points out, that many of my Cabinet colleagues and I have not just commented on publicly but about which we feel strongly. We look forward to delivering on that before the end of the year —we will deliver on that promise.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab) [V]]

I heard what the Secretary of State said about the one-way unfettered access, but in 33 weeks Northern Ireland businesses will have to comply with EU customs and regulatory rules and two VAT systems. When will the Government let those businesses know exactly what they need to do to comply with the protocol in order to keep trading?

[Brandon Lewis]

We will ensure that businesses have plenty of time to be ready for January next year. One of the key parts of that is ensuring that we have unfettered access. We will not put borders down the Irish sea or anywhere else. Unfettered access is a hugely important part of respecting the Good Friday agreement, as well as the “New Decade, New Approach” deal. The best way for businesses to have fluidity of access to the market is to have unfettered access. That is what we are determined to deliver, and that is what we will do.