Immunity for Soldiers

Debate between Bob Stewart and Lord Benyon

Monday 20th May 2019 Westminster Hall

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I served for more than three years in Northern Ireland, on seven operational tours. I first went there in 1970. Sadly, I lost six men who were directly under my command, and many more in my unit. Almost 50 of the men under my command were wounded—35 in one incident. I have been involved in several fatality shootings. I think I have the right to speak for Northern Ireland veterans today.

We were sent to Northern Ireland by our predecessors. The Glosters were sent in, I think, August or September 1969. We were sent to save lives, to look after people. We were given a yellow card, which was approved by Parliament, and that yellow card told us what we could and could not do under fire. We trained very hard on it. We memorised it. We rehearsed it. Colleagues are nodding their heads. We practised on exercise incidents so that we would learn.

Army training screams out against opening fire in peacekeeping. That decision is an incredibly difficult one to make and it is very difficult in an urban environment because soldiers are thinking, “If I open fire, who else am I going to hurt?” How many times did I see instances of our soldiers not firing when under fire because of the possibility that children or women would be caught in the crossfire? That tactic was used by our opposition. There is huge inhibition to opening fire, and the decision to do so has to be made in milliseconds by our young men. By the way, I worked with some young women on operations, but not in the infantry. When that decision and those actions are judged, it is in some courtroom, warm and nice with time and lawyers. A judgment is being made about a decision taken by someone who is panicking like hell.

[Richard Benyon]

Fifty years ago.

[Bob Stewart]

My right hon. Friend is right: it was taken a long time ago. We must remember that most of our young men were 18 or 19 years old. They were kids. My soldiers looked so young that they could have been in year 9 or 10 at school.

Firearms were used as a last resort. On the yellow card it says, in capitals:

“FIREARMS MUST ONLY BE USED AS A LAST RESORT”.

That was drilled into us. A challenge had to be given before someone could open fire, unless doing so, it says on the yellow card, would increase the risk of injury or death to others or oneself. That challenge was clear: “Army. Stop or I fire.” Again the yellow card is specific: opening fire was allowed only if lives were endangered by someone firing a weapon at a soldier or someone they were protecting, or if someone was planting or throwing an explosive device—the card specifically mentions petrol bombs. One third of my platoon were injured by petrol bombs in 1970 on the streets of Londonderry, at the Rossville Street/William Street junction—one third burned, and we had not opened fire at all. And nor did we. If someone is driving at a soldier, that soldier is allowed to open fire. Finally, if a terrorist has killed someone or is in the act of killing someone, a soldier can open fire if they cannot make an arrest in any other way.

We could only open fire with aimed shots, not with machine gun fire; we did not do it automatic. We had to use “the minimum force”—that, again, is on the yellow card—and we had to be careful that we did not hit innocent people. That little phrase stopped so many British soldiers from firing, particularly in Belfast on the Falls Road.

Common Fisheries Policy

Debate between Bob Stewart and Lord Benyon

Thursday 14th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I would like to meet hon. Members from both sides of the House during this process and to keep up a regular dialogue. I think there are misunderstandings about the possibility of creating a market mechanism in tradeable quotas. I want to make sure that they are retained in member states, that there is no possibility that more fishing opportunity can be grabbed by fewer and fewer people and that there is a social dimension to our fisheries policy. I want to try to get UK-wide agreement on this.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

From 2013, when the new regulations come in, would it be possible for some very clever people, perhaps in DEFRA, to design a system so that fish discards are distributed to charity, perhaps at home or even abroad?

[Richard Benyon]

The commissioner mentioned that as part of the process; there are mechanisms within the common fisheries policy and common agricultural policy to do that but they are a bit bureaucratic and are not very successful. I agree that it is an affront in a hungry world, when we know that people live in poverty in our own country, that perfectly edible, quality fish are being thrown away, dead. We want to create new supply chains that will address my hon. Friend’s concerns.