European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Bob Stewart and James Clappison

Monday 10th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clappison]

I am grateful to the Minister for his careful reply, and to hon. Friends and the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) for their speeches in support of my amendment. This has been a worthwhile debate because it has clarified a number of issues relating to the United Kingdom’s liability under the arrangements agreed in May 2010 to the European financial stabilisation mechanism, the European financial stability facility, and the new European stability mechanism. There will doubtless be many more such bodies in the future.

I have heard the Minister’s reply. It remains the case—I have been making this point throughout the debate—that the Bill will become an Act and be law in our country before the ESM has taken effect. The ESM will not have been ratified before this Bill is enacted. That is hanging in the wind, and I am sure that all questions that arise from that, and from the Minister’s reply, will receive careful analysis in the future.

I agree with the line taken by the Government. As I have said throughout the debate, it is clearly in Britain’s interest no longer to be liable under the EFSM, and I regret that that has not yet come about. I appreciate the line taken by the Minister, and as I have said, there are sound diplomatic reasons for the Government’s continual incantation that a stable eurozone is in this country’s interest. I understand all those who say that and we do not want to lecture our European neighbours on the point. However, let me say gently to the Minister that the more I hear that phrase uttered—even if the Minister is right to do so and there are sound reasons for it—the more it brings to my mind the image of a witch doctor making his incantations over a prostrate patient in some village in remote parts. The witch doctor makes the incantation, the credulous draw comfort from it and there is perhaps a wider feeling that traditions have been complied with, but it makes no difference to the patient who lies prostrate and as sick as ever. That, I am afraid, will be the case with the European economy for as long as we are afflicted by the present eurozone.

The Minister made a point about listening to electorates, but leaders of the European Union—the European Commission in particular, but other leaders too—have never distinguished themselves in doing that in the past. Referendums have been held, European treaties have been turned down and electorates have been told to go back and think again. Even when public opinion has been overwhelmingly in favour of a particular course, or not in favour of something the European Union has proposed, the European Union elite has paid absolutely no attention.

I do not mind discomforting the European elite; I have nothing to lose because I am elected to represent my constituents and I am happy for them to hear my words and judge me accordingly. The European political elite has pressed the cause of European integration without bothering to seek the consent of electorates, and it put in place the European monetary union project as part of that process. Members of that elite must now be held to account for all the sad economic consequences that flowed from that decision, which have been outlined by the Conservative party, and they must be made to face up to their responsibilities, as no doubt some of them will in future. There are few ways in which we can influence the European Commission and organisations of the European Union in a democratic way—I wish it were otherwise—but the European elite must face up to the consequences of its poor decision making.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

How can we make those people face up to their responsibilities and take the blame for what they have done?

[Mr Clappison]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The point I was making is that in many respects we cannot, because they are above and beyond the control of our electorate. That has always been the problem with the European Union. Some in Europe sought to impose their project without bothering to take account of the views of the electorate. That problem lies at the heart of the matters we are discussing today and is one of the reasons we are afflicted by the eurozone. It is time people began to listen and reflect on what electorates have to say and on the lamentable economic consequences of the euro. However, as I indicated I would, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and Governance

Debate between Bob Stewart and James Clappison

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clappison]

With the Single European Act, we had a single market established before the Maastricht treaty. I do not have time, in the seven minutes available, to go over the whole Maastricht treaty, but a very wide body of opinion now suggests that it should never have been signed—I have heard that said from the Government Front Bench. All the safeguards that were put in place have turned to dust. Let us bring things a little more up to date. The hon. Gentleman will recall that his party was so upset about the signing of the Lisbon treaty that it wanted a referendum on getting out of the EU altogether, and Liberal Democrat Members walked out of the House.

The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who is no longer in his place, made some apposite points, as did the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), although he was completely wrong. He asked what was wrong with groups of states coming together within the European Union to do something where not all member states are participating, as in the case of the Schengen agreement and many other things. That comes back to my main point, because that was all being done within the framework of a treaty. A completely different treaty is being set up now, but it is one within which member states are still co-operating and operating within the framework of the European Union, using the EU institutions, as we know. It was apparently drawn up by the European legal service, the European Commission has a central role in it, the European Commission is mentioned in the whole of the preamble and throughout every article, and the final decision-making body with arbitration powers over this is the European Court of Justice.

[Bob Stewart]

rose—

[Mr Clappison]

I will give way to my hon. Friend at the end, if I may, because I need to make one or two other points before then.

I would respectfully draw to the attention of the Minister the fact that although we are rightly not a part of this treaty, it brings about some fundamental innovations in decision making among EU member states. In particular, I refer to articles 7 and 8. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone rightly referred to the coercive powers being taken by the European Union, and I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends to consider just how coercive those powers are and to try to ensure that they are never brought to bear against this country. No pressure should be put on us to submit.

There is a body of opinion in the EU that wants to make this country submit to the EU deficit procedure and we have, unfortunately, entered into some commitments on that. We must keep out of those commitments because they run completely counter to the principles of democracy both in the individual member states and in the EU. Under article 7—let us remember that this is not an EU treaty and is outside the EU—when the Commission is of the opinion that a country is in breach of the deficit procedure, it brings the matter before the other member states and unless there is a qualified majority vote against taking the decision that the commission wants to take, the matter must be treated as a breach and the offending country will be hauled before the European Court of Justice. This is a very significant procedural development.

We are familiar with how we used to have a veto in European Union matters. It goes back to 1975 and we were promised when we joined the European Union that we would always have a veto. That was eroded and we agreed to abide by the qualified majority vote for more and more things, particularly in the single market, but at least it was a qualified majority vote and a qualified majority of states had to be in favour of a measure before it could take effect and legally bind this country. Under the new EU method of decision making, the Commission gets its way unless there is a qualified majority vote against what it wants to do. There could be a clear but simple majority of EU member states against the Commission’s finding a member state in breach, but it will still legally be necessary for the country to be considered to be in breach and hauled before the European Court of Justice even though a majority of EU states were against that course of action, and despite what individual electors in the countries concerned might want. There could scarcely be anything more coercive than that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone is right to ring the alarm bells. This is a new procedure—it is very new—and it is taking EU integration to a completely different level.

National Planning Policy Framework

Debate between Bob Stewart and James Clappison

Thursday 20th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clappison]

That is an interesting proposition that could perhaps be considered on another day and in the fullness of time.

The hon. Gentleman will be pleased that the objective of localism has been fulfilled through the national planning policy framework, and in particular through the opportunity to establish neighbourhood plans to take into account the views of local communities. At the same time—I grasp the nettle on this issue—I welcome the planning policy framework’s approach towards promoting development and growth, which is a perfectly proper consideration for such a framework. The planning system should not be, as it sometimes has been, an obstacle to appropriate and justified developments in the right place. It is a question of getting development in the right place and striking the right balance among the social, environmental and economic factors that have to be taken into account. I welcome the willingness that Ministers have shown so far, including today—they will no doubt continue to show it in future too—to listen and seek to strike the right balance among those different considerations. I understand that that is a work in progress, and I urge Ministers to continue with it.

I have heard a lot about sustainable development. Although I do not have a problem with the definition in the policy framework, I would ask Ministers to look again at the presumption in favour of sustainable development. We can all see what Ministers are trying to achieve, but more work needs to be done on how that operates throughout the planning policy framework, because the word “presumption” creates the impression that there is something that has to be rebutted. I think we know what Ministers are trying to achieve, but more work needs to be done.

I have two further points to make. The green belt is a particularly strong interest for me, as much of my constituency is covered by it. However, I am rather at a loss to understand some of the legal opinion that has been quoted about protection for the green belt, because as I read the planning policy framework, the protection for the green belt is at least as strong as in the existing documents, if not arguably stronger. I am not sure whether those who say that there is no protection against inappropriate development have got as far as paragraph 142, which states:

“Inappropriate development is, by definition, harmful to the Green Belt and should not be approved except in very special circumstances.”

What could be plainer than that? I welcome that plain speaking. I think that that provision is probably stronger than what were said to be the safeguards allegedly taken out by the Government, because it represents a prohibition,

“except in very special circumstances.”

I would ask the Government to go further than the enhanced protection that they have given to the green belt. Over the years, I have seen developers come to my constituency with ingenious arguments about what might amount to special circumstances to justify development in the green belt. Time and again, those applications have been made, and if every one had been granted, there would now be no green belt left in my constituency. I therefore ask for still further protection for the green belt.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Clappison]

I will give way to my hon. Friend, because I think that that will gain me an extra minute.

[Bob Stewart]

When we refer to “special circumstances”, are we referring to a situation in which locals really want something? Is that the way my hon. Friend would read it?

[Mr Clappison]

What the developers have done in the past is give their interpretation of what local people should want, but that is not what local people actually want. They can be very ingenious.

An important point about the green belt that has not yet been mentioned is that this document protects the existing green belt. The Government have abandoned the doctrine of the previous Government which stated that the loss of existing green belt could be compensated for by the designation of green belt somewhere else in the country. For example, under those rules, the green belt in Hertfordshire could be built on if that was compensated for by the designation of fresh green belt in, say, Hampshire, Herefordshire, Northamptonshire, Norfolk or somewhere else in the country. That doctrine would have resulted in the rolling development of the whole country, so I welcome the new protection.

A matter of great interest to my constituents is that of green spaces. I welcome the inclusion of that important concept in the document. Green spaces can include spaces in urban areas near to the green belt. I should like to make a plea to the Minister on behalf of my constituents. I know that the Government cannot designate green spaces everywhere, but will they be as flexible and generous as possible in that regard, because those spaces are a tremendous boon to my constituents and those of other hon. Members? I am speaking particularly on behalf of the Woodcock Hill environmental community project in my constituency, which has worked hard to establish a village green on a treasured green space that I hope will remain for many years to come, long into the future after we have all gone.

I support what the Government are trying to do, but I would also urge them to listen to the valid points that have been raised. This is work in progress and there is more to be done, but the Government are approaching the matter in the right way and getting very close to their target of fulfilling their original objectives. We should give them the support and help that they deserve as they seek to achieve their important objectives, balance them together and build a better future for our country.