Pet Theft

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gareth Johnson

Monday 2nd July 2018 Westminster Hall

[Gareth Johnson]

If I understand my hon. Friend’s point, the Proceeds of Crime Act is fine when there are some proceeds, but when there are no proceeds, it is very difficult to use. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) mentioned that his dogs are worth about £50 each.

[Bob Stewart]

Less.

[Gareth Johnson]

My dogs are not worth 50p each, but that is not the point. The whole point is that our pets are priceless to us and the law does not recognise that.

Nuclear Safeguards Bill

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gareth Johnson

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 16th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

It seems to me that the Bill is not only a contingency plan but a crucial building block for our negotiation. Our negotiation requires legislation such as this Bill, so that we can get everything else sorted and get a decent agreement with Euratom.

[Gareth Johnson]

The Government have been absolutely clear that they must prepare for all eventualities, and that is precisely what is currently happening.

I congratulate the Minister on putting resources into the country’s nuclear industry. It is essential to ensure that British nuclear fusion research continues when we leave Euratom. We have invested a huge amount of time, resources and effort in becoming a world leader in this field, and we must not allow our status to diminish. The Culham Centre has been mentioned a few times. It is not the only centre that specialises in such work, but it is crucial and it employs many people. It is essential that the Government do all they can to protect its valuable work and keep its workers in place.

I am pleased that the Minister has found some funding for the JET project, which has massive potential in the nuclear fusion industry. It is hard to overstate just what advances can be achieved if we ensure that the investment in that project continues not just in the UK, but across the world.

All too often we are a little too apologetic about our work in this industry when, in fact, successive Governments can be incredibly proud of our work on nuclear safeguards. We have a proven track record as a nuclear weapon state; we have signed the non-proliferation treaty; we have worked at the heart of the IAEA since its inception and we will continue to work with it and uphold our international obligations. That is something about which we can hold our head high. We can be very proud of the fact that, right from the beginning, we have been one of the few countries that has said that non-nuclear countries should remain so without any assistance from nuclear countries. That is vital.

We have also worked very well with the EU over safeguarding, and can continue to do so in the future, but we will need this Bill to enable that to happen. The Bill will ensure that safeguards can continue uninterrupted and that collaboration with the EU can continue. The expertise that we have heard a lot about from both sides of the Chamber today can be shared between nations and with the EU and around the world. It is clear that the European Union and the UK have a strong mutual interest in ensuring that this close co-operation continues in the future. That was set out very clearly in the position paper of the Department for Exiting the European Union—the Government’s nuclear materials and safeguards paper—that was published in July. We have been very open in our positioning papers about our stance in negotiations, and in July we gave a clear indication of where we wanted to go with this particular issue.

There is no reason why we cannot have a safe, pioneering, co-operative and responsible nuclear industry after Brexit. Yes, decisions will have to be made and agreements reached on issues such as the ownership of property at Culham. My understanding is that Euratom owns some of the property at our centres and that there will have to be some negotiations over who should continue to own that property once Brexit takes place, but, like so many other things involving Brexit, that can be resolved through negotiation.

In conclusion, this Bill will provide continuity, reassurance, protections and safeguards for the whole of this country and the whole of the industry and therefore should be given its Second Reading today.

Awards for Valour (Protection) Bill

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gareth Johnson

Friday 25th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Gareth Johnson]

My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. There are two ways of trying to preserve the right—I would call it that—of family members to sport medals. One is to be very definitive and to list everybody who qualifies as a family member, as the Children Act 1989 attempts to do, and the other is to keep it open and allow the courts some discretion.

The difficulty with trying to define exactly who is a family member is that we will always miss people out. Is the boyfriend of a niece a family member? It probably depends on the circumstances. The list goes on. I have deliberately taken the view, therefore, that there should be a wide definition of “family member” in order to allow the courts to decide whether it applies. No doubt, that point will be debated in Committee. It is something I am open-minded about. I do not want to be over-prescriptive. I just want to preserve this great custom and ensure that loved ones and family members can still sport, often on the right breast, the medals earned by others in their family of whom they are rightly proud.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

The only position for medals that have not been earned is on the right breast. Anyone wearing a medal on the left breast has earned that medal.

[Gareth Johnson]

I am well aware of that custom. The Bill is not intended to deal with people who have wardrobe malfunctions when looking in the mirror. What I want it to do is to catch only those who deliberately intend to deceive others.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gareth Johnson]

My hon. Friend is right: the Armed Forces Act repealed the provision, and the repeal came into effect in 2009. Therefore, we currently have no law of this nature, which is often seen throughout the world, to protect veterans.

Let me return to an earlier point and reiterate the point about family members being able to wear medals that have been won by loved ones. I say categorically that I would never introduce a Bill that would cut across that excellent custom. It would be unworthy and contrary to common decency.

You will know, Mr Speaker, that medals are not permitted to be worn in this Chamber. However, if I were to wear a medal, I would wear my great-grandfather’s medal. He served in the East Kent Regiment—the Buffs—and was killed at the Somme. As I say, I would wear that medal if it were permitted in this Chamber. I appreciate that it is not. I think that illustrates that my intention is to preserve the custom that family members are able to sport the medals of loved ones without fear from the Bill. The tradition of doing so should be not only protected but enshrined in the Bill.

However, those who deliberately attempt to deceive people will be caught by the Bill—I make no apology for that. People who commit this act do so for a variety of reasons. Some, sadly, as we have heard, do so because they are affected by serious mental health problems. As I mentioned, the Bill creates an offence of specific intent, so anyone with a serious mental health problem who is unable to form that intent cannot be convicted of this offence. The Crown Prosecution Service would have to satisfy, as I said, a public interest test before any prosecution could even begin against someone who carried out this action. It has been brought to my attention that there are occasions when people with mental health problems do commit this act, but I repeat that there will be those safeguards in the Bill.

Some people can be very manipulative and can use medals for their own advantage, seeking the respect that comes from them to advance their own cause. I am thinking of a councillor in Thanet who wore medals that he had not earned in order to help his election campaign. I am sure that we will hear more about that later from my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay). I am thinking of Roger Day, who marched past hundreds of veterans and their families wearing numerous medals that he had not won. Yet no prosecution could be brought against him and many other people because, quite simply, as things stand, behaving like that is not against the law.

Estimating exactly how widespread the problem is can be very difficult. There are no arrests and so no records. The Naval Families Federation recently surveyed over 1,000 of its members and found that around a third of them had experienced these Walter Mitty-type characters. The Walter Mitty Hunters Club—I have no connection or association with the organisation—claims to receive something in the order of 20 to 30 complaints a week. I understand that it is investigating 70 cases that have been brought to its attention.

I am president of my local Royal British Legion group in Greenhithe in Kent, and there have been two instances there of people pretending to be decorated veterans when they had not even served in Her Majesty’s armed forces. This cannot go on. If we leave things unchecked, we will get to a situation where trust in the whole medal system and trust in valour evaporates. I have been contacted on numerous occasions by veterans who have recounted to me their experiences of witnessing impostors at remembrance services. They feel deeply hurt, offended and insulted by the actions of these individuals. The problem is genuine and, anecdotally, it seems to be increasing.

We therefore need the deterrent factor that the Bill would provide, and I think it right for the offence to carry a term of imprisonment as well as a fine. I have suggested a three-month period; that would mirror the legislation referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), which is no longer in force. Of course, any sentence would be up to the courts, but making the offence imprisonable would allow them to impose community-based penalties that would not be available if the offence were subject only to a fine. It is right, proportionate and appropriate for a term of imprisonment to be available to the courts at their discretion, for the worst cases, should that prove necessary. I should make it clear, however, that although the Bill provides for a three-month sentence, it would not be possible to impose a sentence of imprisonment in a youth court: a custodial sentence would not be available there, and I am content with that. It would be quite rare for people aged 17 and under to fall foul of the law, but I also think it right not to provide for their imprisonment, purely because of their age.

Unusually, I am endeavouring to introduce a law that has applied in the past, but does not apply today. Stolen valour has a history in this country. After the first world war, Winston Churchill introduced the offence as Secretary of War. He said at the time:

“We want to make certain that when we see a man wearing…a medal, that we see a man whom everybody in the country is proud of.”—[Official Report, 2 April 1919; Vol. 114, c. 1277.]

He was absolutely right. The same principle applies today, and it applies equally to the women who serve our country. The Armed Forces Act 2006 repealed the offence because it was a bit too messy and uncertain, but unfortunately it was not replaced at the time. That decision has been criticised by the Defence Committee. While it is possible to prosecute for fraud when monetary gain applies, or under the Uniforms Act 1894 if a full regimental uniform is worn, the law does not cover people who steal valour in the way that I have described, and public confidence can therefore be shaken.

[Bob Stewart]

I have met many people wearing SAS berets. An astonishing number of people walking around the streets appear to have been in the Special Air Service, but I reckon that one in 20 of them actually has.

[Gareth Johnson]

That is an important point, made by a distinguished and experienced veteran. I am told that pretending to have been a member of the Special Air Service is the most common example of people stealing valour from others in order to curry favour and win respect for themselves, and it is often done in a way that is deeply insulting. Veterans frequently have a good nose for people who are stealing valour from others, as I have observed in my local Royal British Legion club, where they sometimes notice that something is not right. That ability is often deployed to identify Walter Mitty characters of this kind, and if my Bill is passed, it could be used to prosecute them.

The stealing of valour has been recognised as a problem around the world. For instance, the Americans recently adopted their own Stolen Valor Act to protect recipients of the Purple Heart, because a huge problem had developed as a result of people pretending that they had received it when they had not. In fact, very few countries do not have an equivalent of my Bill, and I am not aware that any that have such legislation have felt it necessary to repeal it. I think we can deduce that the law has worked well in other countries, so why should it not work here? Why can we not have our version of stolen valour legislation, which has worked well in America and elsewhere, and which I think we can be confident would work well in the United Kingdom?

We have a proud military history. Each of the regions that make up the United Kingdom has contributed significantly to our armed forces, and has excelled in wars over the years. It therefore seems wrong to me that we do not afford veterans the protection that they are given in so many other countries. Many people braver than I have put their neck on the line for this country. We owe the freedoms that we enjoy in this Chamber to those who have fallen and those who risked their life for us. Indeed, we are overlooked, at either end of the Chamber, by the shields of colleagues who gave their life for us in one of the world wars. We cannot allow that valour to be stolen. We cannot allow the public to lose trust in our veterans, and we cannot allow their memories to be undermined. I therefore ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading.

Offender Rehabilitation Bill [Lords]

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gareth Johnson

Monday 11th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Gareth Johnson]

It is above my pay grade to give information on why a probation trust has been refused a contract. I find it heartening, however, that so many of the examples given by Opposition Members involve charities and other organisations outside the probation service working successfully with offenders. I welcome the fact that the Bill will roll out that programme to ensure that more people get that kind of assistance.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Is it not true that whoever works with offenders, whether they are from a private company or a trust, will have to be qualified and prove that they can do the job?

[Gareth Johnson]

It is highly unlikely that the Ministry of Justice would give any kind of contract to an organisation that it did not regard as fit and proper to provide those services.

I repeat that charities and private sector organisations are already involved with administering some unpaid work requirements and drug treatment orders. This can, and often does, work extremely well, and we should certainly not turn our back on it. I fear, however, that the genuine help that charities and private organisations can provide will not be made available if the instinctive rejection of the private sector by some Members results in the Bill being voted down. Some Members oppose the Bill simply because they do not want the private sector to become involved in state affairs, regardless of whether that would reduce crime.

Let us not lose sight of the central argument: the public are screaming out for less crime. I believe that the Bill will achieve that. It matters not to a burglary victim whether the perpetrator is helped to stop offending by an organisation in the private sector, the charity sector or the public sector. What matters to that victim of crime is that there should be less crime, and that they will not be the victim of further offending.

NHS Risk Register

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gareth Johnson

Wednesday 22nd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper), although I disagreed with much of what she said. If we had listened to organisations such as the British Medical Association in the past, we would not even have a national health service. The BMA opposed the very creation of the national health service, so we should take no lessons from such organisations. What we have heard from Opposition Members today shows their culture of saying, “Do as we say, not as we have done.”

Although I disagreed with much of what the hon. Member for West Lancashire said, I did agree with something that the shadow Secretary of State said when he was in charge of the Department of Health in September 2009. He said that Ministers and their officials need space in which to develop their thinking and explore options, and that the disclosure of the risk report may deter them from being as candid in the future, which would lead to poorer quality advice and poorer decision making. The right hon. Gentleman was absolutely right then and that ethos has run through Governments across the ages.

Like most Members in this House, I support the principle of open government. I support the fact that the Department of Health has divulged far more information since the general election. We all want open and free government, but that will inevitably always be up to a point. No Government since the dawn of time have felt it prudent to publish a risk register and divulge it in the public domain, whether it be a transitional register, a strategic register or any other kind of register.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I have used risk assessments or risk registers in a different way. The military used them as a management tool to look at the worst-case situation and the best-case situation. We did not publish them or make them public for the simple reason that they would have worried people too much. They set out “what if” scenarios. That is why the previous Government did not publish them and why we do not want to publish them.

[Gareth Johnson]

My hon. Friend makes a valid and correct point. Governments need such registers to function efficiently and to cover every eventuality. As he pointed out, a risk register is a mechanism by which civil servants can candidly present a worst-case scenario to Ministers. It is not about what is expected to happen, but about what is the worst that can happen. Risk registers are therefore not Government policy, but preparatory documents.