Interest Rate Swap Derivatives

Debate between Bill Wiggin and Caroline Nokes

Thursday 24th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on his tireless work to bring this matter to our attention, on having secured this second debate and ensuring that so many colleagues are here today, and on his enormous hard work as chair of the all-party group on interest rate swap mis-selling.

The last time we debated this subject, I was aware of only three constituents affected by interest rate swap agreements and described it then as a niche problem. Since then, however, the number of constituents affected—that I am aware of—has doubled to six. While the problem affects only a small number of constituents, the figures involved are eye watering—for two of my constituents, the sums run into several million pounds—but what has struck me is the features they all have in common: they are all small business people working hard to build up and expand their businesses. Whether in student lets, the leisure industry or farm diversification, they have all sought, ostensibly with the help of their banks, to grow their business, provide more employment and greater opportunity in the local area and, of course, help our economy. Some have quite impressive premises; others are literally run out of a garden shed or a room above the garage, but until they were unwittingly sold a product quite unsuitable for their circumstances, they had all enjoyed good relationships with their banks—those frankly are now in tatters.

Over the last few days, undoubtedly like other Members, I have suddenly started receiving updates from the banks about the progress they are making, setting out how they are compensating customers mis-sold these products and in my view trying to gloss over what have to date been quite unacceptable delays. I cannot repeat what the managing director of the Landish Group, which operates in my constituency and the constituencies of other hon. Members, said to me about the update I forwarded him from his own bank. The language was quite unparliamentary, so I will not repeat his words, but I can understand his frustration.

As we have heard, the banks have collectively spent more than £500 million on their own administrative costs, but in nearly 16 months they have delivered only a handful of decisions; and only 32 businesses have received any payments at all. It strikes me that a number of key issues must be addressed. First, on the speed of redress, I would like to reiterate what my hon. Friend the Member for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin) said about the snail’s pace of payments. It is painfully slow, but it was notable that as this debate drew close, there was a flurry of updates and self-congratulatory crowing from some of the banks about how they had made contact with 96% of their customers. Well done! How about paying back some of the money?

Secondly, we need to separate direct and consequential losses. One of my constituents had his decision from Barclays on 8 July. The bank admitted that he had been mis-sold and said that the swap would be torn up and exchanged for a simple cap at a cost of £29,000 and that, allowing for the cost of the cap, his direct costs—£1.35 million—would be returned, but four months on, he has seen no sign of that money. He placed a consequential loss claim at the beginning of August, which has not yet been accepted, declined or even discussed, and Barclays will not return the £1.35 million that it acknowledges it owes him until it has agreed the consequential losses, which it will not even talk about. I entirely endorse the call from my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy for the direct and consequential losses to be separated, so that the banks can crack on and refund some of the money owed, allowing businesses to invest, employ people and carry out redevelopment that might best take place at this time of year.

Thirdly, there is the thorny problem of what constitutes a sophisticated customer. Two of my constituents were judged to be sophisticated and so, along with 10,000 others, were excluded from the FCA redress scheme. One was deemed to be sophisticated despite his having no finance director; having never heard of a swap before he was sold one; doing his own accounts on a spreadsheet; having no in-house accountant; not being a limited company or even registered for VAT; and literally running his business out of a garden shed. I do not think it could get much less sophisticated if it tried.

[Bill Wiggin]

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. I hope she needs the extra minute. Does she agree that an arbitrary limit on the number of employees is no way to determine sophistication in relation to financial products?

[Caroline Nokes]

I certainly agree with my hon. Friend about that.

All my constituent is asking for is the chance for what happened to his business to be reviewed, because of the situation he now faces—owing to the swap product, the fees, the charges and the circumstances of the product, an initial £3 million loan has spiralled to a massive debt of £9 million in just five years. The product far exceeds the term of the loan, time-wise. He has found himself having to work to the limit every day, seven days a week, just to make sure that he can make the repayments on the loan.

I was somewhat relieved today that my constituent did not turn up wearing a snail suit, which he was threatening to do—sadly, it was unavailable—but I am conscious that Bully-Banks is organising some sort of snail racing today. I have no idea whether it has taken place yet, but I can well understand why the snail has become the emblem of the campaign. I sincerely hope that the Financial Secretary will act to help these small businesses—which are, after all, the lifeblood of our economy, but have found themselves caught up in this nightmare—and make sure they are given swift and fair redress after all this time.