No Recourse to Public Funds

Debate between Beth Winter and Tom Pursglove

Wednesday 15th May 2024 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Legal Migration and the Border (Tom Pursglove)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Beth Winter) on securing this debate on the important issue of no recourse to public funds, and I thank colleagues for their interventions during the course of her remarks. A lot of points were made, which I will respond to on behalf of the Government, but first I will set the policy in context. I am sure that Members across the House are aware of the details of the policy of no recourse to public funds, but it is important to set out the context, and our rationale and approach.

A well-established principle is that migrants coming to the UK should be able to maintain and support themselves and their families, including children, without imposing an unreasonable burden on the welfare system. Successive Governments have taken the view that access to benefits and other publicly funded services should reflect the strength of a migrant’s connections to the UK and, in the main, become available to migrants only when they have become settled here with indefinite leave to remain. In practice, that has been done through granting permission to enter or stay with a no recourse to public funds condition attached.

Only the benefits listed in immigration legislation are classed as public funds for immigration purposes. Some benefits based on national insurance contributions, may still be accessed by migrants, such as contribution-based employment and support allowance. The Government’s position remains that those seeking to establish a life in the UK must do so on a basis that prevents a burden on the taxpayer and promotes integration.

I respectfully disagree with the central premise of the argument advanced by the hon. Member for Cynon Valley. Were we simply to scrap the no recourse to public funds policy, I would argue that, given the national support in place through Departments such as the Department for Work and Pensions and the local support provided by local authorities, far greater costs would be associated with such support were there to be broad eligibility for anyone coming to the UK. I do not think that that is proportionate or fair to the taxpayer generally. Later in my remarks, I will set out the safeguards in place to ensure that where people’s circumstances require it, there are routes in for people to get support.

[Beth Winter]

I referred to several reports, which I will provide copies of to the Minister. When we look at the cost-benefit balance, supporting people who come here, often from vulnerable and difficult situations, may bring an initial cost up front—although providing people with the basics of food, heating and so on is a moral and humane duty anyway, so I disagree fundamentally with his position—but in the long term it benefits our country financially, if that is the concern of the Government, as well as socially. To back that up, I will supply the evidence, which is overwhelming.

[Tom Pursglove]

Our approach is a balanced one. For example, many people come to the United Kingdom through the established visa routes, family routes and skilled work routes. The hon. Lady touched on the issue of safe and legal routes, and I am a strong advocate of the work that the Government have done to give sanctuary to more than half a million people since 2015.

One of the commitments we made during the passage of the Illegal Migration Act 2023 was to consult local authorities and to set a figure, an annual cap, for properly supported places that can be provided across the country so that people are able come here. In particular, we work with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to support the most vulnerable people from around the world, with all the help and support around that. That is entirely right and proper, and I am very grateful to the local authorities who have offered places. We will help with the wraparound support that comes with it. In the next few weeks, I hope to be able to say more not only about the figure, but about laying the statutory instrument that will help to bring that cap into force in 2025, delivering on the commitment we made to ensure that those places are durable and sustainable, and provide people with the sanctuary that they need.

As a general principle, I go back to my earlier remark that we think it is right that people who come to the United Kingdom through most of the routes are able to sustain themselves without relying on the taxpayer. As I said, there are safeguards in to provide support. [Interruption.] I recognise that the Labour Members here are perhaps not in line with the position of previous Labour Governments on this issue, but that policy has been a consistent one under Conservative Governments, under the coalition Government and under Labour Governments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Pursglove]

I suspect that we will disagree quite strongly in principle on this. I would argue that the policy on asylum seekers’ right to work achieves the right balance. People who come to the United Kingdom in small boats, via a route organised by evil criminals who put them to sea in unseaworthy vessels, are exploited them in the process. They hand over their money to evil criminal gangs, who have no regard to whether they get here safely. We have a moral responsibility to put that criminality out of business. Any additional pull factors give the evil criminal gangs responsible for that trade an additional marketing tool to sell a vision of what coming to the UK looks like. That cannot be right. Nor is it right when we consider the many people who come to this country by applying and going through the proper process and following the rules, entirely appropriately. We should not undermine that process. It is an important part of our borders and migration system, and has for many years been how we manage migratory flows.

If somebody’s asylum claim is not dealt with and concluded within a 12-month period, they are able to take roles on what is now the immigration salary list, previously the shortage occupation list. I think that provides an appropriate level of balance.

[Beth Winter]

Will the Minister give way?

[Tom Pursglove]

I am conscious that there are still a lot of points still to get through, but I will gladly give way to the hon. Lady on this occasion.

[Beth Winter]

Again, I strongly disagree with the Minister on this issue. People who are forced to try to reach these shores on small boats are not getting on boats because of pull factors; they are doing it because of push factors. They are extremely, extremely desperate. Anybody who tries to reach this country on a dinghy, bringing their children with them, must be extremely desperate. If we had a humane migration policy that provided legal and safe routes to come here, people would not be losing their lives. People are dying because they are being forced to use these routes. Should we not be welcoming people here? We have shortages of nurses and of workers in other sectors and industries. Wales advocates being a nation of sanctuary. What is wrong with people coming here to contribute to our society, which would benefit us economically?

[Tom Pursglove]

I definitely do want people to come here, but through legal routes and in a managed and proper way, rather than in small boats making perilous crossings of the channel. We have a responsibility—a moral duty—to put that criminality out of business. Yet again, in the last fortnight, we have seen a young girl lose her life in the channel in the most tragic of circumstances. We have to put a stop to that, and we are determined to do precisely that.

It is recognised that some migrants may be at greater risk of poverty and destitution, and that is why there are rightly safeguards in place. It is important to protect vulnerable migrants, and appropriate safeguards flow from that responsibility and our recognition that people can find themselves in the most challenging circumstances. In practice, that means that migrants with permission under the family or private life routes, or the Hong Kong British national overseas route, can apply for free to have their NRPF condition lifted by making a change of conditions application. An individual on those routes can apply to have their condition lifted if they are destitute or at risk of imminent destitution, if there are reasons relating to the welfare of a relevant child, or if they are facing exceptional circumstances affecting their income or expenditure.

For all immigration routes other than family or private life and the Hong Kong BNO route, the general expectation is that the person will return to their home country should they become unable to meet their essential living needs in the UK. If there are particularly compelling circumstances that make leaving the UK impossible, discretion can be used to consider whether they justify access to public funds. The latest data published in March 2024 for quarter 4 of 2023 shows that 71% of the decisions taken on change of conditions applications were granted. That demonstrates that the system works and is practical.

It is worth adding that the Government are providing additional support for those with NRPF. For example, subject to the relevant income thresholds, those with NRPF can access free school meals and early years education for two-year-olds. Statutory benefits, including statutory sick pay, statutory maternity pay and contribution- based jobseeker’s allowance, are accessible to all those who have made significant tax contributions, including those with NRPF.

The Department of Health and Social Care leads on the Healthy Start scheme, but I will gladly ask the relevant Minister to provide a written update to the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne). We continue to have ministerial and official engagement with colleagues from across Government about NRPF, specific benefits, inclusion or otherwise and eligibility. I would very much welcome receiving the reports that the hon. Member for Cynon Valley mentioned. I am not convinced that we will agree on everything, but we will most definitely look at them. We keep the policy under review, so I would welcome the opportunity to reflect on those reports.

Local authorities may also provide a basic safety net of support, regardless of immigration status, if it is established either that there is a risk to the wellbeing of a child or a genuine care need that does not arise solely from destitution—for example, where a person has community care needs or serious health problems. If it is helpful and the hon. Lady would like to share the details of the case she raised—I am not sure from her remarks whether a change of conditions application has been made—I will be very happy to ask my officials to look at the particular circumstances and get back to her.

I have dealt with the asylum seeker right to work and the situation with regard to safe and legal routes. There will be opportunities to debate those matters separately in the coming weeks and months. I definitely expect to make progress on the cap in the coming weeks and months, as I said in the debate in this Chamber on Monday.

[Beth Winter]

Will the Minister comment on the suggestion about better joined-up working, including with the regional and devolved Administrations? Is that something he will look at?

[Tom Pursglove]

I am very happy to take that point away. The Government’s general principle is that it is important that we have a system that provides balance. I set out the safeguards, but I am definitely very happy to engage not only with colleagues across the UK Government but with counterparts in the devolved Administrations. The immigration system generally is a reserved matter, but there are undoubtedly aspects that relate to their work, and I am always willing to engage on those matters. Our approach is that we and they can suggest agenda items, and then we debate them and talk constructively.

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

Nationality and Borders Bill

Debate between Beth Winter and Tom Pursglove

Report stage
Tuesday 7th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Tom Pursglove]

The measures in the Bill are significant. We have recognised—the Home Secretary has consistently recognised this and I recognise it as the Minister responsible for tackling illegal immigration—that the asylum system in this country is currently broken. The length of time it takes to process claims is unacceptable and we need to improve the situation. The Government’s intention is clearly stated: to improve the way we process claims. We expect individuals who seek to claim asylum in this country to comply with the requirements, but of course safety nets are in place, for good reasons, so that it will be taken appropriately into account if people cannot meet the deadlines. We believe that progressing on the basis of processing claims more quickly and removing those with no right to be here will make quite a significant difference. Importantly, it is also about the work that we do not just with our nearest neighbours in, for example, France and Belgium—that collaboration is important and is delivering results, and we want to secure a returns agreement that will help to build on that—but further upstream in removing those with no right to be here back to source countries.

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Yesterday, in a scathing attack on this Bill, Welsh Government Cabinet Ministers issued a statement saying that the Bill undermines Wales’s desire to be a nation of sanctuary, and will exacerbate inequality and harm. In their words:

“Wales is a welcoming nation and we will always stand with those who need us the most.”

Yes, Minister, we do keep a welcome in the hillsides and valleys of Wales. Will he scrap this inhumane Bill, end the hostile environment, put in place safe and legal routes, and stop undermining the responsibilities and aspirations of the devolved nations?

[Tom Pursglove]

The short answer to that rather long intervention is no. It is not the first time that I find myself disagreeing with Labour politicians, and I am afraid that I disagree with the Welsh Government on this point. All parts of this United Kingdom have a proud record of welcoming to this country people from around the world who are fleeing persecution and conflict; that tradition will continue, as I am sure the hon. Lady knows.

This country has to have a system that is fair but firm, and that brings to an end the abuses in the system previously and to date. Those who are not acting in the spirit that I think all of us would like to see are actually making it more difficult for genuine asylum seekers who are seeking sanctuary, and there are inevitably considerable associated resource implications.