Advisory Committee on Business Appointments/Ministerial Code

Debate between Ben Gummer and Wes Streeting

Monday 20th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Ben Gummer]

My right hon. Friend is right that our constituents are the ultimate judges of our behaviour and performance. There are very strong arguments for allowing people to have outside interests, and there are also strong arguments against. Those arguments need to be reconciled with more time and thought than is possible during consideration of an urgent question. I repeat my earlier point that when we make such decisions we all have a duty not just to our own interests but to the wider reputation of our democracy. We have that duty in everything that we do, whatever post we hold in government or in Parliament.

[Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)]

At the risk of upsetting the new editor of my city’s newspaper, may I point out that there is an air of complete unreality around some of this afternoon’s exchanges. The public’s trust in both politicians and the media has never been so low, so what does it do to that trust if there is the idea that politicians can have a number of roles, including editing a newspaper? In an era of fake news, what does it do for the reputation of the media to have someone editing a newspaper who has no qualifications to do so? My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) asked about apprenticeship funding during Question Time. As a London MP, I want apprenticeship funding in London, as would the editor of my local newspaper, but what would the right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne) think?

NHS Bursaries

Debate between Ben Gummer and Wes Streeting

Wednesday 4th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[Ben Gummer]

I accept that there are differences—I will come to them in a second—but implied in the hon. Lady’s point is an acceptance that she was wrong in 2010, and she should therefore be more measured in her proposals, or lack of them.

[Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)]

It has not all been plain sailing since the reforms, not least as regards the impact on applications from mature students, who make up a significant proportion of the nursing cohort. Does the Minister not accept that there is no proposal in the consultation on how to mitigate the risk to good recruits from mature student backgrounds, who make up a significant proportion of the nursing workforce?

[Ben Gummer]

I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is wrong on both points: more mature students are applying now than in 2010; and there are specific recommendations in the consultation to deal with mature students.

NHS Bursary

Debate between Ben Gummer and Wes Streeting

Monday 11th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Ben Gummer]

I was merely making the point that there is a lot of exciting thinking out there, outside the workforce planning that we are doing. Through our reforms, I hope to be able to encourage more of that. I know that there is some very innovative thinking in my part of the country. People want to get on with it in the NHS and university sectors, but at the moment they cannot, because of the constraints on how nurses are trained and recruited.

I turn to the issues raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, who introduced the debate on the petition. He asked four specific questions. One was on specialist courses, and the shadow Minister repeated that point. Some specialist courses have suffered shortages for many years. For several years, the Higher Education Funding Council for England has been dealing with the wider attribution of training funds and university tuition funds across the sector, and it will take on responsibility for making sure that very small and specialist courses are properly funded and promoted. In liberating the universities sector a little, I hope that we will be able to excite interest in some of the more specialist courses, which have been suffering for several years, and better match foundation trusts’ workforce requirements with universities’ ability to deliver.

My hon. Friend asked whether foundation trusts will be able to pay back loans as an inducement. I do not know whether that will be possible for foundation trusts specifically, but they are free to offer pay premiums to aid their recruitment—they have been able to do so for many years. I imagine that will continue.

My hon. Friend asked about the number of placements and the financing of them. That will be determined by the consultation and in discussions with Universities UK. He also asked about the arrangement for placement expenses, and I have heard his point. I know it is a unique problem that is specific to student nurses—although to some extent, it also applies to student teachers—and again, we want to look at that in detail in the consultation to ensure that we get the implementation right. That is why it is not just a matter of pure detail; it is about how the policy works as implemented.

The hon. Member for Ilford North raised a number of points in addition to the ones he raised in his Adjournment debate. I apologise for not having answered all of them previously; I had a short time and he raised a huge number, with his usual eloquence. However, I hope I can answer some of his specific points on this occasion.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the problems of recruiting into community-based settings. There is a shortage in that specialty, which has traditionally suffered from problems in recruiting. I am well aware, just as he is, of the need to improve recruitment into community settings and primary care settings if we are to get the proper integration of primary and secondary care, and more importantly, of social care and the NHS. That is one of the key challenges facing us in the years ahead. Health Education England has a scheme under way called “Transforming nursing for community and primary care”, which it launched just over a year ago, precisely to incentivise nursing applicants into that specialty. Again, I hope that universities will respond positively, as they have in the case of other courses, so that they step up to the workforce demands placed on them as a result of the reforms that we are making.

The hon. Gentleman asked what the amount of debt to be written off was. The long-term loan subsidy—he will understand the phraseology—remains at 30%. That is the figure that the Treasury has set. As a consequence of that and because of, as he put it, reliable reports from newspapers, which he imputed to be fact, he asked whether there would be an increase in student fees above inflation. I can say to him that there are no plans at all to increase student tuition fees above inflation.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether I would be willing to meet those who disagree with my point of view and that of the Government on this matter. I would, of course, and I have done already. I would be delighted to meet anyone whom he wishes to bring to me, including the demonstrators he mentioned.

The hon. Gentleman began his speech, however, by talking about a burden of debt. It is important for all of us here to remember that the loan is an attachment against earnings, which is time-limited and limited according to the ability to earn, so it is not like debt such as a mortgage. We made the same argument back in 2011 and 2012, and it is important that we use language correctly in this place. We saw an uptake in university courses after the 2012 reforms. Once prospective students understood how the financing worked, how they would pay back the tuition fees and that it was not a debt that would saddle them in the same way that a mortgage or hire purchase agreement might, as was suggested at the time, university applications increased significantly. We all have an interest in this place in making sure that the number of people going into nursing increases. It is important, therefore, that even if we disagree with the policy, we do not misrepresent it.

[Wes Streeting]

After leaving the National Union of Students in 2010 when my term in office expired, I worked with Martin Lewis from MoneySavingExpert.com and the coalition Government to try to communicate the facts behind the tuition fees system, so I endorse what the Minister says about getting the facts across. Martin Lewis and I are concerned that the Government are seeking to apply retrospective changes to the terms and conditions of student loans without a parliamentary debate and vote. We would have a much better airing of all the issues, and this issue specifically, if we had that debate and vote in the House of Commons. Will the Minister commit to that process now?

[Ben Gummer]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I cannot commit other Ministers to debates, but I will certainly represent his concerns to the Minister for Universities and Science, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Orpington (Joseph Johnson). He makes a strong point. It seems that I am the only person in this Chamber not to have a close acquaintance with Martin Lewis, but I will ensure that the hon. Gentleman’s points, including the one about the Delegated Legislation Committee—I sat on such Committees for a few years and never received anything nearly as exciting as student grants—are represented to the Universities Minister, so that he can answer him directly.

I wish also to address the points raised by the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes), who talked about equality impact assessments. We have worked up an assessment of the impact that the changes will have on recruitment into nursing—of course we have—as part of our policy generation. That will culminate in a full equality impact assessment and a business case, which will be published at the time of the consultation, not long from now. I hope that that will inform the discussions that take place, so that we can have a robust and evidence-based debate.

The hon. Lady talked about housing costs, which was reflected in an intervention by the right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith). Housing costs are a considerable pressure for many students—not only those applying for nursing courses, but those in high-cost parts of the country. That is partly why we want to increase the amount of maintenance we can provide. To return to my central point, within the current spending envelope we can do that by such a considerable amount—25%—only through a reformed system. To do it in other ways would be prohibitively expensive, and I do not believe the Opposition have proposed that.

The hon. Lady asked about NMC registration fees. At the moment, they are incurred at the point of registration when the university course has finished and are tax-deductible. They have risen in the last year, which I know has caused disquiet among nurses. I have spoken to the regulators, including the NMC, and implored them to keep their fees at a sensible level and to avoid rises whenever possible. The NMC has had to deal with a considerable increase in fitness-to-practise cases, but I hope that with internal cost savings it will be able to mitigate further rises. I have certainly asked it to do that, although it is an independent body.

The hon. Lady cited someone she had spoken to who was, if I understood her correctly, halfway through a degree. It is important to state that the change is for new students only, so those on existing courses will not be affected.

Student Nursing (Finance)

Debate between Ben Gummer and Wes Streeting

Monday 14th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)]

It is a privilege to respond to this debate, and the hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting) made a powerful speech. I know that he has experience and expertise in student finance. He was on the front line when we had discussions in this place some years ago, albeit outside the Chamber, and he brings passion and knowledge to this debate. He may feel that I am rehearsing points that he has heard previously, but before I address some of the specific and detailed questions that he rightly raised, I hope he will not mind if I run through some of the issues and reasons why the Government feel that this measure is the right thing to do at this time.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that nursing remains one of the few subjects not within the purview of the current student finance system. To our mind, the current system is not delivering as it should for either students or patients. Simply put, nursing is one of the most oversubscribed subjects in the whole academic range, and the fifth most popular subject that UCAS offers. Last year, there were 57,000 applicants for the 20,000 nursing places available.

I do not wish to go down the route of discussing NHS finance, because it will lead us to a place that is not easy for the hon. Gentleman’s argument and not particularly realistic. There is no way that any Government of any stripe would be able to offer a place to every single person with the necessary qualifications who wished under the current funding system to apply for a nursing place. The question for us is this: how do we change the system to give more people the opportunity to study nursing, and do so in a way that we are able better to supply the nurses and the nursing positions required in the NHS?

The hon. Gentleman asked a very important and pertinent question, which is why in his hospital, which I know from having gone there and from discussing this with him in other debates in this place, he should be seeing a shortage of filled nursing places. It is a function of parts of London that there are problems in recruiting—I was in Hull last week where they have a similar problem, albeit for different reasons—and yet there is an oversubscription for places. He could have added that we almost have a record number of nurses in training at the moment. So how does that add up?

Under the Government, we have seen a significant expansion in the number of nurses in the workplace. The response to the tragic events at Mid Staffs, the subsequent Francis report and the results of the Morecambe Bay inquiry led us to the conclusion that had eluded previous Governments: we needed safe staffing levels on wards that were not, in some parts of the country and in some hospitals, safely staffed. That required a significant increase in nursing numbers, which could be provided in the short term only by agency nurses. That is why we have not only increased the number of nurses in training—clearly, they take a while to come through—but have been required to take action on the cost of agencies taking advantage of the situation. That does not change the fact that it is simply not possible, within the current funding set-up, to satisfy either the demand for or the supply of nursing places.

There are other reasons. Even if we did not need to do something to get a better match between the number of nursing places and what the NHS requires and students want, I would want to push this reform. It is for that reason that I directly disagree with the hon. Gentleman’s assessment of student finance reform. I disagreed with him when we had this discussion in 2011, albeit not in this Chamber. If I may gently put it, I think those on the Conservative side of the House were proved right by those reforms. The simple fact is that we now have more applications from disadvantaged students to higher education than ever before in the history of higher education. We have seen a significant expansion in the number of students full stop going into higher education. Eighteen-year-olds from the most disadvantaged areas were 72% more likely to apply to higher education in 2015 than they were in 2006. It has happened in precisely the opposite way to what he and his friends on the Labour Benches, when they were making the argument in 2011, expected to happen.

[Wes Streeting]

The Minister should look more carefully at what happened to mature student applications following the reforms—they plummeted—and think about the profile of the people applying to be nurses and midwives. Does he accept that the majority of loan debt will never be paid back, including by graduates who will earn far more than nurses?

[Ben Gummer]

I will turn to mature students, but I hope the hon. Gentleman will concede my central point. The significant majority of students going into nursing are doing so at an undergraduate point at 18 or 19 years of age. For that cohort across the rest of the higher education sector, we have seen the most spectacular expansion in opportunity than at any time since higher education was opened up more broadly to people after the second world war. That is something that Members on both sides of the House should celebrate. I know that those on the sensible wing of the Labour party also embrace the reforms and see why they were a good thing.

I disagree with many in the Opposition, but to be direct with the hon. Gentleman, I want to bring those advantages to student nursing. I want to expand the number of places available to people from all backgrounds to give them the opportunity to enter nursing, and I want to secure the advantages that come from bringing people from non-traditional and disadvantaged backgrounds into nursing, in the same way as we achieved in the rest of the higher education sector. I believe passionately in that. Even if the NHS and the students themselves—the 37,000 who applied but did not get a place last year—did not require this change, I would still be making it, because it is the right thing to do for those who otherwise would not have an opportunity. Under the new student financing arrangements, they will have that opportunity.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ben Gummer]

I expect to be held account for this significant reform right the way through the changes that are envisaged. I hope to be able to return to provide good news about progress, as has happened in other student areas. That is why we want to be very deliberative about the way in which we form this consultation, because it is important to get it right.

I have taken note of the careful questioning of the hon. Member for Ilford North, who clearly understands the full gamut of the issues that need to be addressed in this consultation. Let me answer some of the questions he raised, and I shall write to him about any that I do not answer.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the funding of clinical placements. We have already started discussions with Universities UK about that, and it will form part of the wider consultations. The Barnett consequentials will be a matter for Her Majesty’s Treasury, as is the case for everything else connected to Barnett consequentials. I know that BIS officials are discussing the issue in the normal way.

The hon. Gentleman asked about research into financial hardship, and I know that that will form part of the consultation. The Government will be open to any further research beyond the economic impact assessment.

I was asked whether I would be happy to meet students. Of course I would. I have already met Unison and the Royal College of Nursing to discuss the changes I wish to make. I should not pretend to answer for them, but I have had productive discussions with both, especially about the apprenticeship route. I know that we will disagree with both Unison and the RCN about bursaries, but I think there is an understanding, particularly on the part of Unison, of how we are trying to open up different routes to nursing for different parts of the workforce. If we get it right, the apprenticeship model will be a strong one.

The hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) made an important point in her intervention about agency nurses, so let me answer that as I am passing. As I alluded to earlier, part of the reason we are looking at that issue is to ensure that we provide a more sustainable workforce throughput, so that we do not need to rely on agencies and bank staff for the peaks in NHS demand. That is why we need to do something about numbers, and I hope that, as a result of the Chancellor’s announcement, we will increase the number by 10,000 over the course of this Parliament—a very significant increase in the establishment of student nurses. In fact, it will be the largest increase in student nurses under any Government since 1948.

I hope I have answered the majority of the questions put by the hon. Member for Ilford North—

[Wes Streeting]

rose—

[Ben Gummer]

Clearly I have not. I will allow him an opportunity to intervene once more, but I do not want to detain the House much longer.

[Wes Streeting]

I particularly welcome what the Minister said about treading carefully and thoughtfully around the consultation. The one issue he has not addressed, however, is whether extending the tuition fees regime to nursing, midwifery and other allied health subject students will be subject to a full and thoughtful debate followed by a vote in this House and the other place.

[Ben Gummer]

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a definitive answer to that question yet. Let us wait and see the outcome of the consultation, so that the House can be best informed. I imagine that there will be ample opportunities in Backbench Business Committee debates and indeed Opposition day debates, and I know that the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues will want to bring these issues up for further debate. I will reflect the hon. Gentleman’s concerns to the Secretary of State and to the Leader of the House, and I am sure they will receive them with interest.

I genuinely thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing forward this debate, which has provided an opportunity for the Government to explain our plans and the rationale behind them. There will be points on which we will disagree, but I hope the hon. Gentleman will see the force of our arguments about wanting to expand the nursing workforce, to provide different routes into nursing and to provide the sort of opportunities to 18 and 19-year-old undergraduate nurses that have been extended to other parts of the higher education sphere. These are big proposals. They could mean a remarkable and rapid transformation of the NHS workforce, and a significant expansion in the number of nursing students. We need to get it right, and I hope that, through a constructive discussion across the House, drawing on the kind of expertise we have heard from Members in this short Adjournment debate, we will indeed get it right.

Question put and agreed to.

NHS: Financial Performance

Debate between Ben Gummer and Wes Streeting

Monday 12th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)]

The House of Commons Library estimates the cost to the NHS from falls this year at around £2.45 billion. At a round table that I chaired last week with our local NHS trust it was clear that although the will is there to tackle the cost of falls, the resources are not. Is that a good example of how the under-resourcing of the NHS is harming patient outcomes and undermining the efficiencies that the Minister hopes to achieve? How will he address that and wider inefficiency in the NHS?

[Ben Gummer]

I point the hon. Gentleman to parts of the country such as Torbay, Greenwich and the soon-to-be-devolved Greater Manchester authority where the relationship and integration between social care and hospitals is producing exactly the kind of linked up action that he identifies for falls. If we can achieve that at local level we will have a truly integrated health and social care system that is not imposed from above but created by those who deliver care on the front line.