NHS Bursaries
Debate between Ben Gummer and Heidi Alexander(8 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)
It is a great pleasure to respond to the motion, not least because I think that this is potentially one of the most exciting things that we will do in the NHS in the next five years to increase opportunity and quality, and the presence of nursing staff on wards. We will be able to do that because of the reform that has helped so many other students throughout the country in the last five years.
The hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) entered the House at the same time as I did. In November 2010, we sat on opposite sides of the House and contributed to a debate; many of us expressed anxiety about the outcome, not least because of the enormous pressures that we were experiencing from our constituents. Members who have been here for many years will know that that was the first occasion on which a riot taking place outside the House could be heard from the Chamber. The rioters were complaining that we were going to destroy people’s ability to go to university. We were going to make it impossible for people from disadvantaged backgrounds to go there, and we were going to set back years of progress in the closing of the inequality gap in this country.
Members on both sides of the House who spoke in that debate felt very passionately about the issue. We believed that it could be resolved by different means, but over the last five years we have been able to see the effect—and, as posited by the hon. Member for Lewisham East, the evidence—of the changes that were made. That evidence is quite clear. This year, 394,380 people were given university places in this country, 35,000 more than were given places in 2010, the year of the debate. If those 35,000 were to make up a single university, it would be the fourth largest in the country: one university, the fourth largest in one year, following the expansion of opportunity that resulted from the reforms that the House passed in 2010.
The hon. Lady made the most important point, however, when she asked how the reforms extended opportunity to the people who most needed to go to university. I regret the tone that she adopted in that portion of her speech; it was, I am afraid, beneath her. It was indeed wrong that when I was at university my fees were paid for in part by nurses paying tax on low wages. That was wrong, and we accepted that it was wrong. We also accepted that the system was not helping the people who most needed to go to university in order to escape their backgrounds.
The result that we should be looking for now is the number of people from disadvantaged backgrounds who have been helped to get into university in the last five years, and I can tell the hon. Lady that it has increased by 10,150. That is a massive increase. Had someone said back in 2010 that that would be possible, I doubt whether anyone would have given 5,000:1 odds on it, but I can also tell the hon. Lady that 10,150 is the number of people at the University of Leicester. That is the number of people whom we have brought into the university sector as a result of the changes that we have made. We have the equivalent of one more university, full of people from disadvantaged backgrounds, as a result of the reforms that we enacted in 2010.
I know that the hon. Lady’s motivations back then were entirely honest and commendable. I also know that many Conservative Members felt likewise. But we have to accept when we get things wrong, and it is in that regard, I am afraid, that the hon. Lady, rather than us, is failing to learn from history. During the 2010 debate, in an intervention on one of my hon. Friends, she said that the proposed changes would force on students a “huge debt”, and that
“the huge debt that they could now face will act as a greater disincentive to go to university than it will for students from more affluent backgrounds”.—[Official Report, 9 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 579.]
The hon. Lady has made exactly the same point in today’s debate. She was wrong then, and I humbly suggest that she is wrong on this occasion. She should listen very carefully to the evidence that has been presented, not by me but by so many institutions, about the progress that has been made in reducing inequalities, and the reasons why we need to press ahead. In this instance, for one reason alone—and I will come on to others—we need to bring about the reforms to nursing bursaries.
Heidi Alexander
Does the Minister not accept, though, that healthcare students have very different characteristics from other students, and that their behaviour will not necessarily be same as that of students affected by the reforms in the last Parliament?
Ben Gummer
I accept that there are differences—I will come to them in a second—but implied in the hon. Lady’s point is an acceptance that she was wrong in 2010, and she should therefore be more measured in her proposals, or lack of them.
Ben Gummer
Contrary to what the hon. Member for Lewisham East said, I did consult the royal colleges. I have spoken at length with the Royal College of Nursing and with Unison. As I would expect, we differ on key parts—though not every part—of the plan, but the royal college’s initial response accepted that the premise on which we were proceeding was, in significant part, correct. In the consultation, I want to find areas we can agree on and improve the proposals we have put before the public. We were open about the consultation and offered the full 12 weeks—many people said we would not do so, but we did—precisely so that we could listen to the concerns, proposals and exciting challenges from people across the sectors, and thereby improve the proposals we have put before the NHS.
The motion suggests a series of things, but not a proposal from the Opposition to do anything different. They are not offering the NHS any new money—they offered £4.5 billion less than we did at the last election—so I can only presume that the money would have to be found from cuts elsewhere in the service. The hon. Lady will have no credibility unless she tells the House that she will pay for the 10,000 additional training places out of taxpayers’ money, rather than by finding an alternative funding mechanism. I will not offer the House a series of suggestions that might or might not be better, or merely criticise proposals, rather than offering constructive improvements.
Ben Gummer
The hon. Lady is welcome to contribute to the consultation. She is doing so now, although sadly we heard no solutions or alternative proposals. I intend to set out not suggestions, but a clear announcement of our plans, the reasons for them, and how we will enact them over the year to come.
Ben Gummer
The hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting), who has concerns about the proposals, has discussed the matter with me several times and offered some useful suggestions about the detail. I have accepted his points and incorporated them into our thinking. I am very willing to listen to people from across the House when they come with helpful suggestions, and I am sure that the Minister for Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), would be interested in the hon. Gentleman’s contribution about the apprenticeship levy. The way not to do it, however, is to come to the House with a series of criticisms but not one suggestion, nor any money to provide for the increased number of training places in the plan.
We should make these changes not only for reasons of social equity, though that is the foremost reason; not only to produce 10,000 additional training places in our university system; and not only because we have a broken planning system, which otherwise would remain broken—even people as intelligent as the hon. Member for Lewisham East cannot predict how many nurses, doctors and allied health professionals we will need in 20 or 30 years, or the skills they will need. Even were it not for all those things, it would still be important to do this, because of the changes it will make to the quality of training we can provide to nursing graduates. Across the rest of undergraduate training, universities have been released to innovate and improve their courses. Satisfaction levels have gone up and drop-out rates have fallen; consequently, people are getting a better experience.
We have not, however, been able to spread those advantages to nurses, who, I am afraid, remain trapped in a system that is prescriptive and does not take account of the skills that they and their future employers will need. By releasing universities from their straitjacket, we can make significant improvements to the quality of the training they provide.
Ben Gummer
It is an assertion that is backed up by the evidence of the past five years, and which has received the recommendation of Professor Dame Jessica Corner, the chancellor of the Council of Deans of Health. I can tell the hon. Member for Lewisham East, in answer to her barracking, that Professor Dame Jessica Corner said:
“We recognise that this has been a difficult decision for the government but are pleased that the government has found a way forward. Carefully implemented, this should allow universities in partnership with the NHS to increase the number of training places and also improve day to day financial support for students while they are studying. The plan means that students will have access to more day to day maintenance support through the loans system and recognises that these disciplines are higher cost, science-based subjects.”
Likewise, Universities UK has said:
“We support increasing health professional student numbers and will work with Government and the NHS to secure the sustainable funding system”
that the Government have provided. It is particularly pleased about the impact that this will have on placement training. These are the people who are providing training in our NHS, and they support our proposals because they will release the same kind of innovation that we have seen elsewhere in the university sector.
Ben Gummer
The economic impact assessment is part of the consultation, and the hon. Gentleman should consult that. It will obviously depend on the way in which the student workforce develops over the next 20 or 30 years, but this has been fully costed within the Treasury’s assumptions, and we anticipate that people working beneath the current limits will not be paying back more than they are doing at the moment. That is in the nature of the way in which student finance repayments are calculated. These measures will not land newly qualified nurses with new payments that they might otherwise not have expected.
Heidi Alexander
The Minister has urged me to be careful with my words, which I was, and I recognise that he is being careful with his, too. He is talking about newly qualified nurses. Can he confirm what the average repayment would be for the average nurse?
Ben Gummer
We do not currently have a figure for the average nurse, as the hon. Lady puts it. I cannot project where a nurse’s career path will take them 50 years into the future, for precisely the reasons that we have been discussing. The actual repayments—[Interruption.] I will come to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) in a second. The actual repayments are clearly listed in the consultation document. They are clear about the amount that will be paid back over and above what existing students would be expected to pay.
The only way in which we will be able to square the circle that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North mentioned is by reforming student finance. Rather than shouting from a sedentary position, she might like to know that, contrary to her suggestion that many people in her constituency were none the wiser about this reform, I talked about the reforms to nurses in her constituency a few months ago. I also talked to them about the introduction of apprenticeships and of nursing associate grades, all of which are part of the reforms that I am outlining, and they were very excited about the changes that we are making to the nursing profession. All of this is possible only within a budget that is being carefully controlled, and in which priorities are placed on where the money is spent.
Junior Doctors: Industrial Action
Debate between Ben Gummer and Heidi Alexander(8 years, 8 months ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on what steps he is taking to avoid further industrial action by junior doctors.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)
Yesterday, the junior doctors committee of the British Medical Association, in continuation of their dispute over how junior doctors should be paid for working on Saturdays, announced that they would be withdrawing emergency cover during two days, 26 and 27 April. If the BMA proceeds with this action, it will be unprecedented in the history of the national health service.
Let me be clear first about the impact on patients. We will do all in our power to ensure that patients are protected. However, given that patients presenting at hospitals in an emergency are often at a point of extreme danger, the action taken by the BMA will inevitably put patients in harm’s way. That the BMA wishes to do that to continue a dispute over how junior doctors are paid on Saturdays is not only regrettable but entirely disproportionate and highly irresponsible.
The hon. Lady asks what the Government have done to avoid industrial action. Let me be clear on this also. Consistent with our promise to the British people to reduce variations in care across the seven days of the week, the Government could not have done more in their efforts to avoid industrial action. Although both the BMA and NHS Employers believe the current contract to be seriously flawed, the BMA has walked away from negotiations not once, not twice, but three times—unilaterally thwarting the efforts, made in good faith, to come to a negotiated settlement on a better contract.
Time and again, the Government have implored the BMA to return to talks. Time and again, the Government have extended deadlines. Time and again, the Government have listened and responded to the BMA’s concerns, making agreed changes to the proposed contract. The Government have provided every possible means to ensure productive talks. We have charged the most experienced negotiators in the NHS to work with the BMA. At our invitation, we have discussed the contract at ACAS not once, but twice. We have asked one of the most respected chief executives in the service, Sir David Dalton, to attempt to reach a solution. Yet, despite all this, the BMA has set itself against talks, refusing to negotiate on the few remaining points of contention, even though it had previously promised to discuss them. We are in the very odd situation of being faced with a trade union that is escalating strike action, despite having been consistent only in its refusal to negotiate on behalf of its members.
The country cannot be held to ransom like this. At some point, a democratically elected Government must be able to proceed to fulfil the promises they have made to the people. Governments cannot be held hostage by a union that refuses to negotiate. That is why, having exhausted every single option open to us with the BMA—with the BMA refusing to talk—and having listened to the advice of Sir David Dalton and others to move on from the uncertainty that this dispute was creating, the Government have, to their regret, decided to move on and implement the contract.
We will very soon be presenting the new contract directly to doctors so that they can see for themselves that the new contract is safer than the one it replaces, is fairer than the one it replaces, is better for patients than the one it replaces and is better for doctors than the one it replaces. By seeing the detail of the contract for themselves, I am confident that doctors will see the strike for what it is: disproportionate, ill-judged, unnecessary and wrong.
Heidi Alexander
The Minister has spoken for a number of minutes, but he has not answered the question. I asked what further action the Government will take to avert industrial action and the escalation planned for the 26th and 27th, and there was absolutely no response.
This is a worrying time for patients and the NHS, and it is nothing short of a disgrace that, yet again, the Health Secretary has failed to turn up. If this walkout goes ahead, it will be the first time ever that junior doctors have fully withdrawn their labour. Nobody wants that to happen, so let me focus my questions on how we might find a way through this very heated and deeply distressing dispute.
Yesterday, the Health Secretary was reported to have said that “the matter is closed.” May I urge the Minister to think again? He should think about how it will look to patients if the Secretary of State spends the next four weeks sitting on his hands, instead of trying to avert this action. Was the Government’s former patient safety adviser, Don Berwick, not right to have called on Ministers to de-escalate the situation? How does describing the junior doctor element of the BMA as “radicalised”, as the Minister did on Monday, help to de-escalate things? May I gently suggest to him that his tone and choice of words are making a resolution harder, not easier, to achieve?
The Minister is an intelligent man, and I know he will be talking to the same senior NHS leaders I talk to. Deep down, he knows that this contract has nothing to do with seven-day services and everything to do with setting a precedent to save money on the NHS pay bill—change the definition of unsociable hours in this contract and pave the way for changing it for nurses, porters and a whole host of other NHS staff. Am I wrong, Minister?
Finally, may I simply ask the Government to start listening to patients? The Patients Association has said:
“The Government’s decision to impose contract terms on junior doctors is unacceptable…It is clear that the acrimonious dispute…is unnecessary and damaging.”
National Voices, which represents 160 health and care charities, said yesterday:
“We are calling on government to drop the imposition of a new contract”.
The Government have 32 days to prevent a full walkout of junior doctors. The Secretary of State may think that the matter is closed; I say that that is arrogant and dangerous in the extreme. This is an awful game of brinkmanship and the Government must press the pause button before it is too late.
Ben Gummer
I thank the hon. Lady for her detailed questions, put with her customary grace—and I mean that. She raised a number of issues, and I will deal with her first point last, if I may. She mentioned the Secretary of State’s comments to the Health Service Journal earlier this week. We have been negotiating a contract for three and a half years and have reached the point where the counter-party—the British Medical Association—refuses to discuss the remaining 10% that is not agreed, despite the best efforts of the most experienced of negotiators and one of the most respected chief executives in the NHS. In his judgment, there was no further purpose to negotiations, because the BMA refused to discuss those points. The Government are therefore faced with a choice: either they allow the BMA, with that refusal, effectively to veto a contract, or they implement the 90% of the contract that has been agreed and make a decision on Saturday pay rates, on which they have provided considerable movement from the recommendations of the independent doctors and dentists pay review body. I suggest to the hon. Lady that it is not the Government who are causing or calling industrial action, but the British Medical Association.
Ben Gummer
The hon. Lady asks both in her urgent question and from her seat about our actions. All I can say is that I personally have implored the leaders of the BMA to come to talks on a number of occasions, but there is a point at which it is not possible to continue discussions, first because the counter-party refuses to talk, and secondly because the BMA has promised to talk on so many occasions, only to renege on that promise at a future point. We have to move ahead with a contract that is better for patients and better for doctors.
The hon. Lady asked about the reasons for the contract and claimed that it has nothing to do with seven-day services and something to do with the pay bill. Not only is this contract cost neutral, but transition payment is being funded from outside the pay envelope. This has nothing to do with the pay bill; it is about recognising a core concern of the British Medical Association, the Government and NHS Employers that the current contract is not fit for purpose and needs reform.
One of the many reasons for that is to make sure that care can be delivered more consistently across seven days of the week. It introduces for junior doctors terms for Saturday working that in several senses are more generous than those afforded to “Agenda for Change” employees. It could be a judgment for the House as to whether it is equitable for that to be the case, but that was the negotiated position, as far as we reached one, with Sir David Dalton. I ask the hon. Lady and junior doctors to think carefully about resisting a pay offer that is more generous in form and in number than the one that is given to porters and nurses working in the same teams.
The hon. Lady asked whether she was wrong to say that this was part of a wider narrative to reduce the pay bill for “Agenda for Change” unions. I say to her unequivocally that she is. This has nothing to do with the form or payment of “Agenda for Change” staff. It is to do with the terms of contract and employment for junior doctors. It is about making a contract that is safer and fairer for them and better for patients.
Finally, I return to the point that the hon. Lady made at the beginning of her question. It is not the Government who have caused the industrial action. We have bent over backwards to try to avert it, and I suggest that we have done more than some previous Labour Secretaries of State to avert industrial action. The one thing that will help to stop this industrial action is clear condemnation from the Labour party. There is one remaining question in the whole debate, and that is the position of Her Majesty’s Opposition.
The hon. Lady has been assiduous in holding the Government to account. She has been right to do so, and she has done so with the decency that has earned her respect on both sides of the House, but she has not yet told us what the Opposition’s position is. I can understand that, although I do not agree with it, when industrial action is to do with elective, non-emergency care. The call for strike action on emergency care is of an altogether different order, however, and it demands a response from the Opposition, because this is about emergency cover for patients. The Opposition need to say clearly whether they support or condemn the action. If the hon. Lady remains silent on the matter, I will only be able, as will the House, to draw the conclusion that she supports the action. If that is so, it is a very sad day for the Labour party.
Junior Doctors’ Contract Negotiations
Debate between Ben Gummer and Heidi Alexander(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on the junior doctors’ contract negotiations.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)
I would be delighted to update the House on the junior doctors’ proposed industrial action. The Government were elected on a mandate to provide for the NHS the resources it asked for and to make our NHS a truly seven-day service. The provision of consistent clinical standards on every day of the week demands better weekend support services, such as physiotherapy, pharmacy and diagnostic scans; better seven-day social care services, to facilitate weekend discharging; and better primary care access, to help to tackle avoidable weekend admissions.
Consistent seven-day services also demand reform of staff contracts, including those of junior doctors, to help hospitals to roster clinicians in a way that matches patient demand more evenly across every day of the week. In October 2014, the British Medical Association withdrew from talks on reforming the junior doctors’ contract and, despite the fact that the Government asked it to return, did not start talking again until the end of November last year in talks facilitated by the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service. Throughout December we made very good progress on a wide range of issues and reached agreement on the vast majority of the BMA’s concerns.
Regrettably, we did not come to an agreement on two substantive issues, including weekend pay rates. Following strike action last month, the Secretary of State appointed Sir David Dalton, one of our most respected NHS chief executives, to take negotiations forward on behalf of the NHS. Further progress has been made under Sir David’s leadership, particularly in areas relating to safety and training. However, despite agreeing at ACAS to negotiate on the issue of weekend pay rates, Sir David Dalton has advised us that the BMA has refused to discuss a negotiated solution on Saturday pay. In his letter to the Secretary of State last week, Sir David stated:
“Given that we have made such good progress over the last 3 weeks—and are very nearly there on all but the pay points—it is very disappointing that the BMA continues to refuse to negotiate on the issue of unsocial hours payment. I note that in the ACAS agreement of 30 November, both parties agreed to negotiate on the number of hours designated as plain time and I hope that the BMA will still agree to do that.”
The Government are clear that our door remains open for further discussion, and we continue to urge the BMA to return to the table. Regrettably, the BMA is instead proceeding with strike action over a 24-hour period from 8 am this Wednesday. Robust contingency planning has been taking place to try to minimise the risk of harm to the public, but I regret to inform the House that the latest estimates suggest that 2,884 operations have been cancelled.
I hope that hon. Members from both sides of the House will join me in urging the BMA to put patients first, call off its damaging strike and work with us to ensure we can offer patients consistent standards of care every day of the week.
Heidi Alexander
There is so much that could be said about this dispute that it is hard to know where to begin, so let me ask the Minister four simple questions.
First, the Health Secretary says that his door is open to further talks with the BMA. What does that mean? Specifically, can the Minister envisage a new contract where the definition of plain time working at weekends applies only to a Saturday morning?
Secondly, if a negotiated solution to a new junior doctor contract cannot be found, will the Minister today rule out imposing one? Does he not see how harmful imposition would be to patients, given its impact on staff morale, the risk of a protracted period of industrial action and the implications for future recruitment and retention?
Thirdly, can the Minister confirm that the pay protection offered to one in four junior doctors means that those doing the equivalent jobs in the future will be worse off? Should we not value the junior doctors of tomorrow as much as we value those of today?
Fourthly, and finally, throughout the dispute Ministers have repeatedly conflated the need to reform the junior doctor contract with their manifesto commitment to a seven-day NHS. Can the Minister name a single chief executive who has told him that the junior doctor contract is the barrier to providing high quality care 24/7? If junior doctors are the staff group who have to change their working patterns least to deliver this, which other groups of NHS staff will need to have the definition of unsocial hours changed in their contracts during this Parliament?
In the past year, the Health Secretary has implied that doctors do not work weekends, insinuated that juniors are somehow to blame for deaths among patients admitted on Saturdays and Sundays, and insulted professionals’ intelligence by telling them they have been misled by the BMA. If he was here, I would ask him whether he regrets the way he has handled this dispute, but he has not even got the nerve to turn up.
No one is saying the existing junior doctors’ contract is perfect, but if you speak to anyone in the NHS, they will tell you that this whole episode has been an exercise in using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It is time now for the Government to do what is right for patients, for staff and for the NHS.
Ben Gummer
The hon. Lady wonders where to begin. I would say to her that where we begin is with the promise made to the electorate to deliver seven-day services in order to make care more consistent through the week and thereby bring down the rate of avoidable deaths. That has been the aim of this Government—pursued in the guise of the previous coalition and by the current Government—for some years. The junior doctors’ contract, about which negotiations have been going on for some years, has been framed partly in that respect during that time.
The hon. Lady asks a number of questions, and I will answer them directly. She asks whether the door is open and whether the Secretary of State is willing to see further talks. Of course it remains open. Throughout the entire process—from back in the summer, when the BMA made it a point of principle not to return to talks—we have asked the BMA to come back to the negotiating table time and again. I have done so, as has the Secretary of State, so the door remains open. I hope that, in the coming days up to the strike, such contacts will continue.
The hon. Lady asks whether there can be discussions about Saturdays. The Secretary of State has made it plain throughout the process that every aspect of the contract is open for discussion. What is not up for discussion is the ability of hospitals to roster clinicians on a consistent basis through the week. The one group of people who are refusing to negotiate about Saturdays or anything to do with the extension of plain time is the British Medical Association. Despite its assurance—in fact, its promise—at ACAS at the end of the November that it wished to discuss this issue, it has now refused to do precisely that with Sir David Dalton. We are therefore left at an impasse, where I am afraid that on the one item left to discuss, which is Saturdays, it is refusing point blank to open a discussion because of what it calls an issue of principle. For us, the principle is patient safety, and that is why we will not move.
The hon. Lady’s second question was about the introduction of a new contract. At some point, the Government will need to make a decision. Time and again, we have extended the point at which we will introduce the new contract, precisely so that we can give time for talks to proceed, even though the BMA, in a disjointed manner, refused to discuss it for several years until this point. At some point, we will have to make the changes necessary to get consistency of service over weekends. We cannot delay this any longer. No Health Secretary or Health Minister could stand in the face of the many academic studies that have shown there is an avoidable weekend effect and say that nothing should happen. Of course this should be done in concert with other contract changes—changing the availability of diagnostics, pharmacy and other services—and we have always said that it is part of the piece, but it has to be done at some point and that point is fast approaching.
The hon. Lady asks whether imposition will be harmful to patients. I ask her to consider whether avoiding changing rostering patterns to eliminate the weekend effect would not itself be harmful to patients to the number of several thousand a year.
The hon. Lady asks about pay protection. We have urged the BMA to put to its members the pay protection that we made clear right at the beginning of the process, but I am afraid that it wilfully misled its members about the pay offer that we put on the table. I ask her, therefore, to be careful in what she says. For this cohort of junior doctors, this is a very good deal. Those who are coming into the service can be assured that they will have a quality of contract that the current cohort has not benefited from: a reduction in the maximum number of consecutive nights from seven to four; a reduction in the maximum number of consecutive long day shifts from seven to five; a reduction in the maximum number of consecutive long late shifts from 12 to five; and a reduction in the maximum number of hours one can work in a week from 91 to 72. Those are considerable improvements in the contract that will protect the safety and working practices of future generations of junior doctors.
When the hon. Lady wrapped up her remarks, she asked whether we had any regrets about the way this process has proceeded. We do have regrets. We regret that the BMA wilfully misled its members at the beginning of the process, making them believe that there was going to be a cut to pay and an increase in hours, neither of which was true. We certainly regret the fact that the BMA refused to talk to us for months on end, when many of these issues could have been dealt with. We certainly regret the fact that the BMA has gone back on its promise to discuss plain time hours—a promise made at ACAS that it has now reneged upon. I am afraid that in dealing with the BMA, we have not been able to address the matter that is most important to doctors, which is protecting patient safety. That is why, in the end, we will have to come to a decision on this contract for the betterment of patients and the consistency of clinical standards through the week.
NHS Trusts: Finances
Debate between Ben Gummer and Heidi Alexander(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on what steps are being taken to improve the financial position of NHS trusts.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)
The House will know that in 2014, the NHS itself set out its plans for the next five years, which included a front-loaded funding requirement of £8 billion. As our economy is strong, this Government have been able to honour that request and will be funding it in full, including a down payment of £2 billion in this financial year ahead of the spending review period.
Next year, there will be an increase of £3.8 billion and taken together, we shall, therefore, be providing £10 billion towards the NHS “Five Year Forward View”. Within that context, there are a number of hospital trusts that are running a financial deficit, in large part because of the need to staff wards safely after what was learned in the aftermath of the scandal of Mid Staffs.
It is also the case that the best hospitals have begun to transform along the lines required by the NHS “Five Year Forward View”, but some have not. This has made the management of their finances all the more difficult. NHS Improvement expects that NHS hospital trusts will report an overall deficit for the current financial year, 2015-16. Savings achieved in the rest of the NHS have ensured that this overall deficit will be offset, so that the system as a whole will achieve financial balance.
For the next financial year, NHS Improvement will continue to work with trusts to ensure that they improve their financial position. To help them in this endeavour, the Department has introduced tough controls on the costs of staff agencies, a cap on consultancy contracts, and central procurement rules as proposed by Lord Carter in his review on improving hospital efficiency.
The House should know that the savings identified by Lord Carter come, in total, to £5 billion a year by 2020. The chief executive of NHS Improvement, Jim Mackey, is confident that taken together, these measures will enable hospital trusts to recover a sustainable financial position next year.
Heidi Alexander
I am afraid the Minister seems to be in a state of denial. He claims that the settlement secured by the Department of Health in the spending review will sort the financial pressures that hospitals are under, but either he does not understand the scale of the problem or he simply has his head in the sand.
In the past few weeks it has become abundantly clear that hospitals across the country are buckling under the strain of providing healthcare with an inadequate budget. Four out of five hospitals are now predicting a deficit. Monitor is reportedly assembling teams of management consultants to dispatch to up to 25 trusts in need of turnaround, and now we learn that, along with the Trust Development Authority, it has written to every hospital asking it to take urgent steps to regain control of its budget, including
“headcount reduction, additional to the current plan”.
Was the Minister or the Secretary of State aware that this letter had been sent? Did it receive ministerial approval? How many hospitals have subsequently had meetings to discuss headcount reductions? How many job cuts have been agreed as a result of these meetings? On the one hand the Care Quality Commission is telling hospitals they are unsafe, and on the other, Monitor is telling them to cut staff. So which one is it, Minister? What proportion of these so-called headcount reductions will involve clinically trained staff?
On Saturday the King’s Fund said:
“Three years on from Robert Francis’s report into Mid Staffs, which emphasises that safe staffing was the key to maintaining quality of care, the financial meltdown in the NHS now means that the policy is being abandoned for hospitals that have run out of money.”
Will the Minister now accept that his Government’s financial mismanagement of the NHS has made it impossible for some hospitals to provide safe patient care? Is it not the case that this Government have fundamentally lost control of NHS finances? Is it not clear that the only way Ministers are going make their planned £22 billion worth of efficiency savings will be to cut staff, cut pay and close services? I say to the Minister that it is time to stop the NHS doublespeak and just come clean.
Ben Gummer
The hon. Lady started by claiming that the Secretary of State and I were in a state of denial. Were she to look at the outcomes of the NHS this year compared with the last year that her party was in power, she might consider that the performance of the NHS has improved beyond measure. We have 1.9 million more accident and emergency attendances, 1.3 million more operations, 7.8 million more outpatient appointments and 4.7 million more diagnostic tests. This is an NHS that is performing more procedures, helping more patients and doing more for the people of this country than at any time since its foundation. I would therefore gently suggest that those in denial are her party and her. The service is working hard to try to deliver better patient care in a challenging environment.
The hon. Lady asked a number of subsequent questions about staffing levels and letters sent out by NHS Improvement, and I will endeavour to answer each in turn. She asked about the settlement the Treasury has reached with the NHS, and I would point out that that is precisely the settlement that the NHS itself asked for and that the Labour party refused to endorse at the last election.
The hon. Lady’s second question—or statement—related to the fact that there are teams of management consultants. That allows me to remind her that the numbers of management consultants have been cut considerably—by the previous Government and by this one—in contrast to what happened under the Labour Government, who increased the numbers of managers in the 13 years they were in power. We will make no apology for the fact that NHS Improvement and its constituent bodies are working hard with some of the most challenged providers to help to turn them round and to try to address the issues of efficiency and quality they all have. Is the hon. Lady somehow suggesting that they should not be doing that? Should they not be going round hospitals trying to help those that are not able to control their own finances? Should they not be doing what is needed to try to improve the quality of the care those hospitals provide? If that is her suggestion, it is a quite remarkable one, and one that should be more widely shared with the people she seeks to represent.
The hon. Lady talked about the letter sent out by NHS Improvement. Yes, the Department was aware of it, as it was aware of the letter sent out the same day by Professor Sir Mike Richards, of the Care Quality Commission, addressing the issues of quality that need to be tackled across the service. I know that this is news to Opposition Members, but there are not separate parts of the NHS issuing separate diktats. The letters issued on staffing and other issues in the last few months have been co-signed by Professor Sir Mike Richards, the chief inspector of hospitals, by Dr Mike Durkin, the director of safety at NHS England, by Jim Mackey, the chief executive of NHS Improvement, and by Simon Stevens, the chief executive of NHS England. This is one system addressing the particular problems that are evident in some challenged providers and making sure that those providers level up to the best. If the hon. Lady is not convinced of that, she should look at the co-signatories of those letters to see how they correspond one with the other.
The hon. Lady asked about the line in one of the letters about reductions in headcount. I point her to the reductions in the headcount of administrators that the Government have achieved over the past five years. We have managed to reduce the number of administrators in the NHS by 24,000, while increasing the number of clinicians by 16,000. Would the hon. Lady, while not promising the money to the NHS that it has asked for, ask it to maintain the same level of administrators in the years ahead, or would she back NHS Improvement’s plan to find efficiencies across the NHS, precisely so that the money that is spent on administrators can be spent better—on clinicians, on increasing the number of clinicians and on directing resources to the frontline? I know the hon. Lady is earnest in what she says about the NHS, but I cannot believe that she is really riding out in defence of increasing spend on back office at the expense of the frontline.
The hon. Lady asked about safe staffing ratios. She made a number of statements that, in retrospect, she might feel were somewhat irresponsible. The reason for that is that the letter issued about safe staffing in October last year, which built on advice given by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, was co-signed by Professor Sir Mike Richards, the chief inspector of hospitals, and by NHS Improvement and its two constituent bodies. It was a co-signed letter because quality and efficiency are two sides of the same coin. Those hospitals that are providing the highest quality of care in this country tend to be those that are also in control of their finances. Likewise, those that are struggling with quality tend to be those that cannot control their finances. If the hon. Lady were to suggest that, somehow, there is a binary distinction between the two—that there is a choice to be made between quality and efficiency—I would gently say to her that she is about a decade behind all current thinking on how a successful health service is run. It is about making sure that quality and efficiency go hand in hand, and the very best hospitals can achieve both.
In all this, the hon. Lady should avoid falling into the trap that her predecessor so often did of assuming that that there is some kind of trade-off between quality and efficiency, and also attempting a pretty low-level politicising of the NHS—an approach that was roundly rejected at the last election. I ask her to consider the counterfactual—that were she standing at this Dispatch Box now, having won the last election, she would not have had the £8 billion to invest in the NHS that we have managed to have, and she would not therefore be able to assure the public of continued improvements in the number of patients treated, an increased number of operations, GP numbers in excess of 5,000, which we have promised to deliver by 2020, record numbers of A&E admittances, and record numbers of out-patient appointments. She would have been able to promise none of that. That is why Conservative Members are proud to reaffirm that we are the true party of the NHS.
NHS Bursary
Debate between Ben Gummer and Heidi Alexander(8 years, 10 months ago)
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Ben Gummer
That is the case at the moment. The hon. Gentleman must answer the question of precisely how we increase support for people who are working in clinical learning placements. Converting the bursary regime means that we can increase that support by 25%.
It is easy for the hon. Gentleman to make a play to the gallery about how the reforms might work, but I ask him again to look carefully at the experience of other students and at the 47,000 applicants who are unable to secure a place because of the constriction in places. He is not able to give those people an answer about how we expand places without resources that I imagine he is not willing to commit from his position. The best way of giving those people the opportunity is reforming the education system. I am afraid that it is simply not credible for the Opposition to decry the proposals, which is their right, without providing an alternative of how we might fund the additional places and the maintenance of those who are in position.
Heidi Alexander
The Minister talks about the ratio of applicants to nursing students. Will he say what proportion of the applicants who failed to secure a place met the entry criteria to the course? What guarantee can he give that removing the bursary will increase the number of successful applicants?
Ben Gummer
The hon. Lady mentioned in her speech, as did the hon. Member for Ilford North, the need by some trusts to recruit from abroad and to use locum and agency nurses. I hope she will understand therefore the internal logic of our argument: even at the moment, we are not able to fill places from the domestic supply of nursing graduates. It is precisely our wish to expand that supply. Planning the workforce will, in large part, be controlled through the placements that Health Education England buys from universities on behalf of the taxpayer and the NHS.
Several hon. Members raised the issue of clinical placements, on which we are now in deep discussions with Universities UK. The hon. Member for Ilford North raised that issue, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes. I urge them both to look at the example of the University of Central Lancashire, and its relationship with Central Manchester University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust and Bolton NHS Foundation Trust. They are delivering innovative and exciting ways of providing new placements outside the scope of the existing placement scheme, even without any Government support or change in the rules.
There is an appetite for delivering additional clinical placements, and we will see how that progresses in our discussions with Universities UK. All the while, it is important to point out that the Nursing and Midwifery Council has to register nurses at the end and ensure that the degrees are satisfactory. All of this will have to abide by the NMC’s recommendation that the placements are up to scratch, so we are constrained, quite rightly, in anything we might want to do by what it decides in that regard.
Heidi Alexander
The Minister gave the example of the University of Central Lancashire. Does he accept that one reason that pilot is successful is that individuals are guaranteed a job at the end of it, which would not be the case for the students to whom he proposes applying these more general changes?
Ben Gummer
In the course of taking interventions, I am skipping around the points that hon. Members have raised, which I want to address. The hon. Lady is right that the University of Central Lancashire has worked up a really good course, which is partly about job security at the end of it. It is exactly the kind of scheme we are looking at to improve attrition rates, which were another point that my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes raised. We have to do better to help nurses complete their courses, and again, that metric has improved across the rest of the university sector since 2012. I hope that in freeing up nurse training a little through our reforms, we will be able to provide better incentives for foundation trusts and NHS trusts to have an end-to-end training offer for student nurses—if not modelling the one that the University of Central Lancashire has brought in, then a variant on it.
There is a lot of exciting thinking out there in universities, foundation trusts and NHS trusts about how we can implement the reforms to make nurse training better, expand the number of places and solve their workforce problems. My job is to release that thinking. I cannot do it within the straitjacket of the existing system, but I can through the reforms I am able to make.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Ben Gummer and Heidi Alexander(8 years, 10 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)
I will certainly join my hon. Friend in praising the work of hospices. It is a unique contribution in the world of healthcare and we should be proud of their efforts. He will know that I have a commitment to end-of-life care and to improving it. I hope shortly to make announcements in response to last year’s NHS Choices review. I have been talking intensively to people from the sector about what might or might not be possible.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
It is a sad state of affairs when a new year starts with the prospect of industrial action in the NHS. Nobody wants strikes, not least the junior doctors, but they feel badly let down by a Health Secretary who seems to think that contract negotiations are a game of brinkmanship. When will he admit that changing the definition of unsocial hours and the associated rates of pay for junior doctors is a forerunner to changing a whole load of other NHS staffing contracts to save on the NHS pay bill? That is what all this is really about, isn’t it?
Junior Doctors’ Contracts
Debate between Ben Gummer and Heidi Alexander(9 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)
Junior doctors form a critical work force in our national health service. They are critical in the truest sense of the word: they are indispensable to the care of NHS patients. They work around the clock, and they are crucial to the cure of millions of people every year. That was recognised in the powerful speeches that have been made today, not least the very personal speeches made by my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman) and the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh). It is clear that every Member appreciates the central importance of junior doctors, and the extent of their training was made plain by the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford).
The critical importance of junior doctors makes their career unique. Few professions are so rewarding, but few are so challenging. I know from my own experience in hospital and from listening to junior doctors how many strive to provide the very best care, how they devote themselves to advancing their knowledge and level of training, and how they frequently make sacrifices in their private lives that others in comparable professions are not asked to make. That is why I understand why there is such a sense of frustration and anger when junior doctors are told by a trusted source that they will soon be asked to work more hours for less money. I know it will be of small consolation to them, but we on this side of the House are as frustrated because we have always recognised in the contract negotiations that we have initiated with the BMA that no such situation would arise.
The assurances that my right hon. Friend has made in a series of letters over the past few weeks, and the assurance he has given today that no junior doctor working within the legal limits in their current contract will lose money as a result of these changes—
Ben Gummer
I cannot because I have to conclude.
They are precisely the offers that were made privately both by the Secretary of State and negotiators in their discussions with the BMA. Our frustration is compounded by the fact that right from the beginning of this process, we have sought in the new contract to eradicate the slew of injustices in the current contract which make life unfair, and in some cases unbearable, for junior doctors.
Let me give a few examples raised by hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer). It is unfair that doctors who take time out for valuable medical research receive precisely the same increments as colleagues who might take time out to do something completely unconnected with their training and with service to the NHS, and the same increments as those who take time out altogether from the health service, working only part-time perhaps to develop a career in business or another field. They retain the same increments and basic pay through their career as the doctor who works diligently five, six, sometimes seven days a week, progressing through their training, passing their exams—yet getting exactly the same level of pay as the doctors who do not.
The greatest injustice arises for doctors from the perverse incentives in this contract—for example, hospital management choosing to use the current contract to avoid difficult decisions in rostering staff, paying doctors to work unsafe hours rather than getting to grips with the roster they should be putting in place to ensure safe care for patients.
Let me make it clear to the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), who spoke for the Labour party, that the reductions so far since the 2000 contract are a result not of the penalty payments put in place as part of that contract, but of the working time regulations which have made a significant impact on the working hours of doctors, and quite rightly so. Does he not see the logic of his own argument? There are still doctors in the national health service who are working dangerous hours despite the fact that there are penalties in place to stop them doing so. By extension, the only way we can ensure that we have a proper, safe working environment in the NHS is to ensure, once and for all, that in contract and through review, and by exposure to regulatory bodies, junior doctors are not permitted to work unsafe hours. When we are asked whether we back the mis-statements by some of the people involved in this debate, or whether we encourage people to—
NHS: Financial Performance
Debate between Ben Gummer and Heidi Alexander(9 years, 1 month ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
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Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on the financial performance of the NHS.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)
I thank the hon. Lady for giving me this opportunity to come to the House and make a statement on the financial performance of the NHS.
On 9 October, Monitor, the regulator of NHS foundation trusts, reported that foundation trusts ended the first three months of the financial year with an estimated net deficit of £445 million. Monitor’s publication noted that performance in the first quarter of the financial year is usually worse than it is over the rest of the year. The NHS Trust Development Authority also published that day the financial position of NHS trusts for the first quarter of 2015-16, which showed that the NHS trusts sector ended the first quarter of the year £485 million in deficit.
The financial position of the NHS is undoubtedly challenging. It is important to recognise that, despite the difficult decisions we have had to make as a result of the calamitous deficit we inherited, it is the Conservative party that has chosen to prioritise funding for the NHS. That is why we are committing an additional £10 billion over the lifetime of this Parliament, starting with £2 billion this year.
However, additional Government spending is not the only answer to the challenges faced by the NHS. The Government have taken action with our arm’s length bodies to support local organisations to make efficiency savings and reduce their deficits. In the first three months of this year NHS trusts spent £380 million on agency staff, while foundation trusts spent £515 million. That is nearly £10 million a day across the NHS. We need to reduce that spending and challenge the agencies that are charging, frankly, outrageous amounts for their staff. To that end, a package of measures, including a ceiling on the amount each trust can spend on agency nurses and mandatory central framework agreements, was announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in June.
The Government and NHS leaders have taken national action to support local leaders in managing down those deficits. I very much welcome a constructive discussion with the Opposition on where we might be able to go further in driving the efficiency savings that the NHS must find if it is to provide the exceptional standard of patient care that we all, on both sides of the House, wish to see.
Heidi Alexander
I thank the Minister for that response. Where possible, I hope that we can have a mature and constructive relationship. However, he should make no mistake that when responses are as poor and lacking in detail as the one we have just heard, I will provide strong and robust opposition.
Ministers are accountable to patients, and their silence on the growing black hole in NHS finances has been deeply disappointing, as is the absence of the Health Secretary today. Not a single Minister was available to be interviewed about the NHS on Friday: it is not good enough. The deficit for the first three months of this financial year was larger than the deficit for the whole of 2014-15.
So, first things first: what advice has the Minister issued to hospital chief executives and finance directors about managing these pressures? Does he honestly think it is still possible for hospitals to balance the books, maintain current services, and deliver safe patient care? Given that the figures relate to quarter 1 and we are now in quarter 3, will he provide his latest assessment of the NHS financial outlook?
There is clearly not enough money in the current budget to cover existing costs. How on earth does the Minister plan to fund more services spread over seven days? The Conservatives’ election promises of more money have yet to materialise, and now their commitment to transparency in the NHS is looking decidedly shaky. For someone who prides himself on being open, the Health Secretary has been suspiciously silent about the delayed publication of these reports. Let me quote what a senior official in Monitor said just over a week ago:
“We are being leaned on to delay them and I have a suspicion that the sensitivity would be less after the Tory party conference”.
Will the Minister say whether these allegations have been investigated? The figures were presented to the board of Monitor on 30 September, so when was he told? Was it before the Tory party conference?
It may be an inconvenient truth for the Health Secretary and his Ministers, but the public have the right to know what is going on and what the Government plan to do. People across the country depend on NHS services, and Labour Members will stand up for them.
Ben Gummer
First, I welcome the hon. Lady to her place. Although he is not in the Chamber, I pay tribute to her predecessor, the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), who occupied her position, both as shadow Secretary of State and as Secretary of State, for a considerable period. I hope we can develop our relationship as constructively as possible in the months and years ahead.
The hon. Lady rightly said that Ministers are accountable to patients. That is precisely why we will not make the same mistakes as her predecessors in trying to trade off patient care and patient safety with the finances of the NHS. That is why we have been entirely open not only about the size of the deficit but, in a manner that the previous Administration were not, the failings of care in the NHS when they occur.
The hon. Lady said that the deficit is larger than it was in the whole of last year. That is not accurate. The deficit is traditionally larger in the first quarter of any one year. [Interruption.] She questions that, but it is a statement of fact.
We took action as soon as we came into office to give providers the opportunity and ability to bear down on deficits: it was one of my right hon. Friend’s first actions in coming into government. In three specific areas—agency staff required because of our need to take urgent action following the calamitous and scandalous events at Mid Staffs, the high and excessive pay of NHS managers and consultancy spend, and NHS property—we have given trusts the ability to bear down on deficits. We expect to see the use of those new tools in the past few months bear fruit in the months to come.
The hon. Lady asked if it is possible to balance books and deliver safe patient care. I point her in the direction of the trusts that are, and have been, successfully balancing their books and providing exceptional patient care. Indeed, it has been observed not only by me and other Ministers, but by those outside the Department of Health, that the trusts that best manage their finances and the efficiency of their hospitals also tend to provide the best patient care.
The hon. Lady made an interesting statement about there clearly not being enough money, but she will be aware that the NHS itself asked for £1.7 billion in this financial year and that we responded not with £1.7 billion, but with £2 billion. We have met the NHS’s own funding requests with more than it has anticipated. For the remainder of this Parliament the NHS itself has requested £8 billion of funding, and we have pledged to give it every single billion—a pledge that was not matched by the Opposition and that they tried to undermine at the last election. They pledged to give only £2.5 billion, as opposed to the £8 billion we promised the electorate. The hon. Lady says that promises have yet to materialise, but the money that we promised, not at the last election but in the previous autumn statement, is already flowing through the system.
The hon. Lady asked specifically about the relationship and the nature of the release of the figures. I completely refute her suggestion and I am certainly looking at investigating why such comments were made. I speak for the ministerial team when I say that we did not put on pressure as she might have suggested.
Finally, the hon. Lady says that the public have a right to know what is going on. We have been completely straight, and I have been direct, about the financial challenges facing the service. The reason for those financial challenges is the extraordinarily challenging situation resulting from the demographic changes in our country. On the Government’s part, that requires making very big decisions about the transformation of the service. We best do that not by making the NHS a political plaything, but by working together to deliver precisely the plan that the NHS has delivered for this Government and that we intend to deliver for the patients and people of this country.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Ben Gummer and Heidi Alexander(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Ben Gummer
The strength of the NHS forward view is that it is a creation of the NHS itself, and we, as the only party to back it in full with cash, will give it the kind of support it needs to make sure it is delivered.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
How many maternity wards or emergency surgery departments currently located in district general hospitals will close as a result of the Government’s seven-day NHS plans?
Ben Gummer
It is telling that the hon. Lady wishes to talk about wards rather than outcomes. Over the last five years, we have seen a significant increase in the number of patients treated in emergency wards, and we will continue to see an increase, and the difference is that they will operate seven days a week, rather than just five days a week, as is currently the case for many services across the NHS.
A&E Services
Debate between Ben Gummer and Heidi Alexander(9 years, 5 months ago)
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Ben Gummer
I will after I have finished this comment.
It is important to put all this in the financial context. I have been through the Lobby with the shadow Minister and with many Labour Members who were in the previous Parliament. We went through the Lobby just before the election when we agreed to cuts in public expenditure in the first two years of this Parliament and the former shadow Chancellor committed the Labour party to cuts in local government spending. Difficult choices are forced on us by the catastrophe and chaos that we were left in 2010. Labour Members need to confront those difficult choices. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot, on the one hand, say that we need massive increases in payments for social care and, on the other, say that they are going to constrain public spending. The answer to that dilemma is surely to try to find a better way of integrating social care that I hope would see cross-party consensus rather than the politicking we have just seen at the Dispatch Box.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
The Minister is talking about the financial context. My worry is that a lot of NHS managers in London talk about a Lewisham-sized hole in the NHS budget in south-east London. We stopped the Secretary of State closing Lewisham’s A&E last time. Can the Minister promise me today that he will not be coming back to Lewisham for another go?
NHS Success Regime
Debate between Ben Gummer and Heidi Alexander(9 years, 5 months ago)
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This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Ben Gummer
I thank my right hon. Friend for that, and he has got to the nub of the point in a way that the shadow Secretary of State did not. This is about patient care and the excellence we expect from it. That is precisely why I agree with him that success regimes will be successful only if we ensure that we are improving patient care, and that might well include improving access to care at a local level.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
I am confused: the NHS success regime is not about success—it is about failure. Will the Minister confirm that services in the areas affected are delivering safe care? Should patients be worried?
Ben Gummer
The hon. Lady should not be confused because the success regime is indeed dealing with local failure and we intend to turn it into a success. That is the point of what we are doing. We have made these decisions where the NHS has assessed areas as having quality and financial problems. We intend to address them rather than just talk about them, which is why I am so glad that this will be locally led, finding local solutions to local problems.