Criminal Justice System: Adults with Autism

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Nick Hurd

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Sir Edward. I offer my sincere congratulations to the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan)—not just on securing the debate but on how he presented the subject. I had the great pleasure of shadowing him when he adorned the last Labour Government as Minister for the Third Sector, and the sincerity and thoughtfulness of his approach to this sensitive subject today is entirely characteristic of him. I also congratulate other hon. Members who contributed to the debate.

I am entirely with the relatively new hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone): I have sat through enough rubbish debates in this place to know a good one. The good debates are the ones we leave having learned something. I shall be frank: the subject on which I am asked to speak today is not one of which I have a deeply rooted, strong understanding. I shall leave the Chamber better informed. A good debate should also be a catalyst for action by Ministers, and further probing. Ministers are trained to try to exude an aura of all-knowingness, which the hon. Member for Cardiff West knows to be a total fallacy.

I shall try to reassure the hon. Gentleman, and other hon. Members who spoke, that there is recognition of one big central point. Since I became an MP in 2005, this country, society and Parliament have made undeniable progress in our understanding and awareness—the central word—of autism, autistic people’s needs, and the consequences of what the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) described as an often hostile environment. Despite that progress, however, the clear message from the debate, through individual anecdotes and voices from all parts of the United Kingdom, is that there is still insufficient awareness and understanding.

My hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) made clear his view that there is still much to be done in Scotland, as there is elsewhere, but we have heard from all parts of the UK in the debate, which creates a powerful message. The fact that there is insufficient awareness and understanding can sometimes lead to unreasonable judgments and decisions, which in turn can lead to trauma. That can mean extremely traumatic experiences for not just the individual involved but their family. The hon. Member for Cardiff West respected the desire for anonymity in the case he raised, but the debate springs from his experience of trying to serve a constituent, so I begin with the acknowledgement, with which I think everyone agrees, that there is clearly some way to go.

The hon. Gentleman, drawing on his experience as a Minister, clearly understood that there are a number of Ministers who could have represented the Government in the debate. It was his fate to get the Home Office, so inevitably what I shall say will focus primarily on the first point of contact in the criminal justice system. However, I give him and other hon. Members an undertaking that, based on what I have heard, I will speak directly to the new Prisons Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), to test his understanding and his appetite to follow up on specific requests—not least the desire to encourage other prisons to follow the example of the one in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, and to continue down the path of accreditation.

We need to recognise that autism is believed to affect about 1% of the population, which makes it highly likely that police officers will encounter people with autism in the course of their duties. It would not be appropriate for me to comment on the specifics of the case that the hon. Member for Cardiff West raised, but it is quite clear from his account, and the fact that charges were dropped, that mistakes were made in that process, and that the experience has had a profound effect on the individual and the family. I am sure that the House would want to associate itself with the regret expressed for that outcome.

However, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge as a general point that police officers are often called on to make decisions in difficult circumstances. They have a difficult job and often have to act swiftly to protect individuals or the public more generally. He knows that: we all do. They also have a duty to investigate alleged offences, especially where there are alleged victims. Given the nature of autism, brilliantly articulated in the debate, it is also possible that at times the actions of some individuals with the condition may be mistaken for unco-operative or even aggressive behaviour. Again, I do not infer that that was necessarily the case in the specific instance that the hon. Gentleman referred to, but it is clearly a risk, and it happens.

[Mr Sheerman]

We are all on a learning curve today. Back in the mists of time, I was Roy Hattersley’s deputy as a shadow Police and Prisons Minister, so we all have our learning curve. Does the Minister agree that the real change that has happened recently, for all sorts of reasons, has been a great improvement in the joining up of children’s services, running across all services? As my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West said, we have got much better when it comes to children. It is with adults that we seem to have difficulty.

[Mr Hurd]

The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point. We have made considerable progress and the hon. Member for Cardiff West was at pains to point out at the beginning of his remarks that he wanted to focus on adults, because clearly that is where some stubborn and significant problems continue to reside in terms of awareness, understanding, decisions, judgments and treatment. We cannot be complacent. I hope that I can reassure the House that we will take all possible steps to improve the general understanding and responses appropriate within the criminal justice agencies.

The hon. Member for Cardiff West pressed me on training, and I will speak a little to that. He is no doubt aware that the Government have published a national strategy on autism—I think he referred to the “Think Autism” strategy; that was refreshed in January 2016. It sets out a programme of work across Government sectors to improve preventive action and support to those living with autism, to assist them to lead fulfilling and independent lives wherever possible. It included recommendations for further improvements in the services and support available across the health, education employment and criminal justice sectors.

The hon. Gentleman cited cuts to the police, but the budget of the College of Policing has not been cut, because of our strong commitment to the training and development of police officers. As part of the strategy, the college has committed to developing a new module of the authorised professional practice for the police service. That was included in the revised guidance on mental health and vulnerability, published in October 2016.

The guidance is the primary reference source for police on legal obligations and the appropriate response to incidents involving people with mental ill health, autism, learning disabilities and other vulnerabilities. It provides indicators for police staff about when there may be health or mental health issues underlying apparent behaviour. That can and should lead to better and more appropriate decision making. Guidance is backed by training modules for all staff who may come into contact with vulnerable people. In addition, the National Autistic Society—I join others in congratulating it, the APPG and the Westminster Commission on Autism on their work—has published a national guide for police officers and staff, which has been distributed to all forces. In many areas there is close liaison between police forces and local autism support groups.

I give this undertaking to the hon. Member for Cardiff West. The College of Policing, which is the agency we rely on for the development of police standards and training, is under the new leadership of Mike Cunningham. I undertake to write to Mike following this debate to set out some of the concerns expressed here and to seek reassurance from the college that those are understood and absorbed and that it attributes sufficient weight and importance to this issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hurd]

I agree with the hon. Lady. My experience of talking to police officers—this is the universal theme—is that they want to do the job properly. They do a very difficult job and need the tools to help them in that job.

Our fundamental challenge is the one expressed in this debate: that levels of awareness and understanding are too low. Our responsibility is to help police officers do what is natural to them—to do their job properly and safeguard the vulnerable where they can, but to play their part in executing swift justice as well. Clearly, the process of education, understanding and awareness building has to continue and does not end. I undertake to seek reassurances from the new leadership of the college that they understand that.

The police and other agencies continue to explore innovative solutions to help support those in the community with autism with daily interactions or official contact. In some areas, autism alert cards are available to be carried by those who are autistic. Locally developed systems may include additional information about the person and contact details of family members or other carers. In other areas, similar results are achieved through autism apps held on mobile telephones. Apps can include information such as carer details and the user’s coping mechanisms, as well as useful links to external support sites. So technology can be our friend, but there is no substitute for the training and guidance we talked about.

I will say a word about police detention, because that has been a difficult and emotive subject. If the police encounter a person who appears to be mentally disordered and in immediate need of care and control, it is open to them to exercise powers under section 136 of the Mental Health Act 1983 to take such a person to a place of safety for a mental health assessment. Use of such powers might be appropriate in the case of a person with autism, depending on individual circumstances, and might be preferred over an arrest, again depending on precise circumstances. New legislative provisions, however, provide that police officers should consult a mental health professional before exercising such powers, where that is practicable. That is intended to ensure that the most appropriate decisions are made in each case, in particular where the person may already be in contact with local health or social support services.

If an offence is alleged to have been committed, however, or the person needs to be dealt with through the criminal justice system, notwithstanding any underlying health factors, an arrest may be necessary and appropriate. Under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, codes set out the safeguards that need to be in place for any individual in custody, with particular provisions in respect of the most vulnerable.

Forces are expected to have available easy-read documents using simple language and pictures to show what will happen while those people are in custody. The hon. Member for Cardiff West talked about the need for appropriate adults in situations where such provision might not have been in place. We are clear that an appropriate adult is required to be present in cases involving children or vulnerable adults, including those with autism, during procedures such as being given information on rights, detention reviews, interviews and taking of any evidence. He rightly pressed me about the Government’s response to Lord Bradley’s report—I assure the hon. Gentleman that we have taken the report very seriously, and there is a programme of action on the various recommendations.

The hon. Gentleman may be aware that liaison and diversion schemes now operate in police stations and courts across some 80% of England. Work continues on how best to ensure that appropriate adults are available when required. A working group of the PACE strategy board has been developing an approach to improving provision throughout the country. That involved partnership work between police and crime commissioners and local authorities. The work is expected to be completed and published soon.

[Mr Sheerman]

We are coming to a very sensitive part of the Minister’s speech. I am sure he will turn to the international dimension. Has he any update for us on the Lauri Love case? Many of us in Parliament are fighting to save that young man from being taken to the United States, to a hostile environment, where he might well commit suicide.

[Mr Hurd]

The short answer is no, I am not in a position to give an update to the House on that, but of course I completely understand its sensitivity. An announcement will be made in due course.

I was trying to give reassurance to the hon. Member for Cardiff West, who prompted this debate, about measures taken to ensure greater provision of appropriate adults. I was saying that liaison and diversion schemes operate in police stations and courts in about 80% of England. Such schemes help to assess individual vulnerabilities and any underlying mental health, autism or learning disabilities issues. They can further assist with referring the person to an appropriate health or welfare assessment if necessary, as well as helping to inform the most appropriate charging decision or sentencing outcome.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned that the family in his constituency case were frustrated with the complaints procedure. Let me say something briefly about that. If individuals are unhappy about their treatment by the police, there are avenues of complaint. Individuals may complain directly to the relevant police force, or they can raise a matter with their local police and crime commissioner. Complaints that include serious and sensitive matters such as assault or serious corruption must be referred directly by the police to the Independent Office for Police Conduct. Police and crime commissioners maintain an overview of complaints about the police and they are democratically elected to hold the chief constable to account for the performance of the force, on behalf of the public.

There is a further right to appeal against how a complaint has been handled by the police. Depending on the nature of the complaint, it will be made either to the chief constable or to the Independent Office for Police Conduct, formerly the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Nick Hurd

Tuesday 8th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. The CBI surveys and others are encouraging, but we are determined not to be complacent. Clearly, Brexit raises a number of questions and there are a number of concerns out there in sectors across the economy. It is the responsibility of this Department to engage fully with the sectors to understand their priorities for the negotiations.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Ministers should come to the beating heart of manufacturing in this country in Huddersfield. Throughout the country manufacturers are in turmoil post-Brexit. There is no Government policy and no preparation. We are going to lose markets all over Europe and replace them with nothing.

[Mr Hurd]

That is a very defeatist statement from someone whom I associate with sunny optimism. It is a priority for the Secretary of State that Ministers get out there and engage with areas and with LEPs to understand their priorities fully. The hon. Gentleman is too defeatist about the competitiveness of British manufacturing.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Nick Hurd

Tuesday 13th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his persistence and passion in pursuing this important issue—there are significant risks attached to misuse. I assure him that the Government are taking the matter seriously. A cross-Whitehall group is urgently looking at our options, including the case for further legislation. In that context, I am happy to meet him.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Minister help the leading manufacturer of laser pens, which is situated in my constituency? The company is—or was—a great supporter of the northern powerhouse and will be attending Thursday’s big conference in Yorkshire on innovation and creativity, supported by the all-party parliamentary group on Yorkshire and Northern Lincolnshire. It wants to know why Lord O’Neill was suddenly pulled as a speaker with no substitute offered. We hear that the Government will have nothing to do with elected mayors or the northern powerhouse. What is the situation now?

[Mr Sheerman]

I mentioned laser pens.

[Mr Hurd]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his ingenuity in asking a question that he was frustrated about not getting answered previously. I reject absolutely any suggestion that the Government have lost any commitment to the northern powerhouse. As for the specifics of speaking engagements, if he would like to speak to me afterwards, I can try to throw some light on the matter.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Nick Hurd

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I certainly can confirm that. I have had a number of bilateral meetings with African Ministers and have signed up seven countries to the Energy Africa campaign, which is all about accelerating their citizens’ access to household solar systems. In my experience—I have seen this in Ethiopia—such systems can transform the prospects of a family. It is a high priority for those countries and for us.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Minister broaden his horizons? This country has so much expertise in our universities and our big energy and waste companies. There are also a lot of social enterprises that know about this stuff. Will he bring them together and give us the opportunity to help people in Africa to set up these things for themselves?

[Mr Hurd]

I am absolutely with the hon. Gentleman on this, as on so many things. There is a huge amount of expertise in this country that we can, should and want to connect to leaders in African countries. Those leaders know that making it easier for their citizens and businesses to access energy is fundamental to development. It is a top priority for us.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Nick Hurd

Wednesday 16th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

3. What steps she is taking to encourage the availability of low-cost credit for start-up businesses in developing countries.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Nick Hurd)]

May I place on record my personal respect for the work done by my predecessor and friend the right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), not least his kick-starting of the Energy Africa campaign?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, small and medium-sized enterprises will play a critical role in creating and sustaining much-needed jobs in poor countries. We have a range of programmes that focus on providing support and finance for microbusinesses, SMEs and, I am delighted to say, social enterprises.

[Mr Sheerman]

I know the Minister to be an innovator —he has that reputation—but will he consider carefully one way in which the United Kingdom can help? The UK is now the leading financial technology and crowdfunding centre of the world, and crowdfunding can deliver real opportunities to, in particular, women in the developing world to control their lives, finance start-ups, and do well in life. Will the Minister talk to other people, including the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with the aim of getting some real movement behind this?

[Mr Hurd]

I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman, who is a long-term, passionate supporter of the power of the crowd. If we get the regulation and the technology right, the arrangements will be very sustainable. The hon. Gentleman may not know this, but we have a manifesto commitment to develop crowdfunding, and that is exactly what we are doing. We are backing the Global Village Energy Partnership, which will support 10 to 15 crowdfunding platforms in the energy sector in sub-Saharan Africa, and that is just the start.

Social Economy

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Nick Hurd

Tuesday 2nd September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Nick Hurd (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)]

As I speak, phones will be ringing in garages across Salford with anxious Volvo drivers seeking reassurance that their cars were not serviced by the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). I do not know how good a mechanic she is, but she is a brilliant politician. I congratulate her on securing a debate on a subject about which we are both passionate, on her track record of supporting social enterprise for many years, on keeping my feet to the fire when I was a Minister and on sending a strong signal to the builders of the social economy that there was strong cross-party support and interest in sustaining the work.

For me, the debate is about two important things. First, how do we find better solutions to the social challenges that undermine this country and carry unacceptable costs—both financial and, more importantly, human? Secondly, as the right hon. Lady herself asked, how do we help British business to sharpen its competitive edge in the modern world, to build trust—a crucial but fragile ingredient of value creation—and to generate social value? Those two opportunities come together within the social economy.

I want to make three brief points to complement what the right hon. Lady said. First, there is a substantial global movement here. We must seize the moment. We spend a lot of time in this place observing the waves on the surface of the ocean, which means that we sometimes miss or are slow to pick up on some of the substantial shifts in the current beneath the surface. What we are discussing today is such a shift in terms of how we think about the economy and its future. I see stars realigning across the three pillars of our society in a way that I have not seen in my lifetime, which suggests that people are now prepared to think and work in different ways—above all, critically, in government.

Government has to change. Across the world, Governments in developed nations face the same challenges of economic recovery—not only getting economies going, but ensuring the fairness of the recovery and its sustainability. There are also the issues of how we shape the competitive future of our countries and, as the right hon. Lady mentioned, how on earth we meet the public’s demand for better public services when we have substantially less public money. We are only halfway through the cuts, whoever wins the next election—let us be clear about that.

As John Micklethwait and Adrian Wooldridge said in their excellent latest book “The Fourth Revolution”, countries in the developed world face the same challenges in the global race to redesign government. The greatest political challenge over the next decade is fixing government. In this country, government has to work in different ways; gradually, that penny is beginning to drop, at the central Government level and at the local authority level, but it is hard, because we operate in a risk-averse environment. Doors and minds are open to doing things in different ways, however, and that has simply not been the case for the previous 25 years.

Furthermore, as the right hon. Lady said so powerfully, social attitudes to business are changing at the same time. In a transparently connected world, values matter much more to business. How businesses behave matters much more, and that will arguably be a source of competitive advantage in future. More and more of us are choosy as consumers about who we do business with; more and more of us, as savers and investors, are choosy about whom we invest in.

To correct the right hon. Lady, I should say that there are social ISAs at the moment, in response to that trend, and the socially responsible investment market is worth trillions of dollars now that savers are becoming more discerning. Employees in a tight labour market are clearly much more discerning, too, and want to feel prouder of where they work. We hope that commissioners, people spending public money, will also be sending strong signals to the market about the competitive advantage potential of being able to demonstrate social value.

No more powerful sign of social change is evident than in the surveys of young people and the generation coming through at the moment. Survey after survey tells us the same thing: coming through now is one of the most socially responsible, entrepreneurial generations that this country has ever seen, with different attitudes to the workplace, to businesses and to what their place in society is. The young generation will underpin the social economy.

The right hon. Lady talked about one in three start-ups in Europe being social; in this country, 15% of SMEs are social enterprises—15% and growing. There is not only change in government and in social attitudes to businesses, to which business is responding, but the social sector is having to change its attitudes as it is buffeted by change on all sides, which carries both risk and opportunity. Now, minds are much more open to working in partnership with different types of organisation and to seeking different funding models, such as social investment.

I see the stars realigning in a way that gives a fantastic engine to the move towards a more social economy and more collaborative models, which must be part of the future.

[Mr Sheerman]

The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent speech and I am absolutely rapt. As he was speaking, it came back to me that we are sometimes a little precious—not him personally, but those in the social economy. A lot of entrepreneurs have come to life through social enterprise. They may stay with social enterprise, but they get their training and become successful private entrepreneurs. There is a big move between the two.

[Mr Hurd]

The hon. Gentleman anticipates exactly my next point. What is so exciting is the signal that we can send about supporting social entrepreneurship across the sectors. He mentioned the private sector, but one of the things that excited me most in office was the evidence of the entrepreneurship within the public sector, unlocked by the opportunity to spin out and run mutuals inside the public sector. There are fantastic examples in the constituency of the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles. It is amazing what happens when we give people the freedom to pursue their dreams as what I define as social entrepreneurs—people who run their own businesses spun out of the public sector. Those values and instincts and that creativity exist across all the sectors of society and need to be nourished.

This is a big idea whose time has come, with the opportunity for collaboration to unlock the spirit of innovation and social entrepreneurship in the country. This country is built on our success in innovating in the process of wealth creation and in the building of our cultural heritage. That is less evident in the area of social innovation, but this is the time to unlock that potential.

Secondly, to reinforce the point made by the right hon. Lady, we lead the world in this area. One of the things that struck me most in office was how many visits I got from representatives from a bizarre range of countries, from Canada to the country that I still call Burma, who said, “We notice what you are doing. We are interested in social enterprise and social investment, and for us the place to come and learn is Britain.” We must not surrender that lead, because if we are right about the movement, it will be a source of competitive advantage for this country as we think about how we shape the future.

My third and final point is to reinforce the right hon. Lady’s message to our Front Benchers—both individuals have earned a great deal of respect and admiration. Let us seize the moment and not lose momentum. I am conscious that for the two gentlemen who aspire to be the next Prime Minister of this country the agenda is full and cluttered, which is daunting, but let those of us who believe in this continue to make noise, saying, “This matters. We have something very valuable and important growing in this country. We must nourish it.”

The right hon. Lady is quite right. We had to compromise to take the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 through Parliament. Respectable voices inside Government were saying, “Be careful here, because we are trying to make the procurement process leaner and more efficient, so what are we doing cluttering it up?”, so we compromised. No voices in the procurement business now say that the Act gets in the way.

Now is the time to look seriously at whether we extend the scope. Such a review needs to happen, but in parallel with a fundamental approach to raise the quality of commissioning throughout the public sector and a modest investment in the kind of learning networks that bring people together and make them ask, “How can we make best use of this?” That is how the system can be helpful. Things such as the Commissioning Academy, which is low cost and high value, are very important.

I also support the right hon. Lady’s comments about the pursuit of other dormant assets. So much time was spent in setting up Big Society Capital and making the system work with the reclaim fund, that we did not have the time to start conversations about pursuing other assets, in particular in the insurance industry. However, they are there, so let us go for them. Let us start those conversations now, because that is money sitting on the table.

I make a plea for cross-party support for the important public sector mutual movement. We must continue to send signals and say, “It is okay, we will support you in this process.”

On social impact bonds, let us be clear that we are at the bottom of the S-curve of the development of that instrument, which is so important because it creates space for social innovation in a system that is risk-averse. They are clunky, take too long and are too expensive to set up, and we have to change all that, but let us be clear that we have only just started and are at the bottom of the S-curve. We now need to find a different gear of ambition to make many more of those things in the marketplace, so that we can test whether the instrument is as valuable an influence as we think it is.

My appeal is fundamental: let us keep the level of ambition, because through that agenda we have the potential to improve so many more lives and to find better solutions to problems that impose unacceptable cost—both financial and human—on this country.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Nick Hurd

Wednesday 20th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I will take no lectures from the Labour party on wasting money on ICT, because the processes we inherited in that regard were absolutely scandalous. I repeat what I said: we see a big opportunity in digital by default. It is a chance to transform the way people engage with the Government. We can see significant savings, which I do not think have been overstated at all. As I said, we have an active commitment to assisted digital, the details of which will come shortly, and to continued activity to support digital inclusion.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

3. What steps he is taking to utilise innovative design to increase the effectiveness and quality of public service delivery.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Nick Hurd

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

Yes, I do. Young people and employers are telling us that. They recognise that the NCS helps young people develop the character skills, leadership, communication, teamwork and self-confidence that will help them succeed in the workplace. That is why we are so proud to support it.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister agree that the NCS ought to go hand in hand with paying attention to first-class citizenship in our schools? Is he aware that citizenship in schools has been run down to almost nothing?

[Mr Hurd]

That is under review by the Department for Education, but I stress that NCS and programmes like it complement what is going on in schools to build the confidence of young people and change how they feel about what they achieve. They are enormously valuable.