Draft Intellectual Property (Copyright and Related Rights) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
Debate between Barry Sheerman and Lord Harrington of Watford(5 years, 9 months ago)
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Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I apologise for being late; some of us were trapped in the Chamber for a statement. Was the point that the Minister is pursuing not at the heart of the controversy and fuss around this statutory instrument in the House of Lords? I wonder if he could let me know.
Richard Harrington
I cannot let the hon. Gentleman know, because I do not think that is the case, but I am sure I will be corrected if it is. Certainly, I have not been informed that the statutory instrument caused a problem in the House of Lords, and I am sure that someone would have told me if it had. Their lordships, particularly certain friends of mine, such as Lord Adonis, do go into great detail on such statutory instruments, so it may well have been one of them. I am afraid I cannot answer the question now, but I will try to answer it by the end of the sitting.
Mr Sheerman
Because I am so popular with the Whips, they have been putting me on a lot of these Committees, so I am gaining some knowledge by experience. It seems that we pitch up to clear these instruments and say that we have given them the seal of parliamentary accountability, but so much of the information about these really complex areas is not here and, often, Ministers do not seem to know what the real impact of the measures will be. As far as I understand it, the implications for intellectual property of coming out of Europe are huge, but I am not getting that picture from the few words I have heard from the Minister.
Richard Harrington
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will hear me out, because I do not think it is as huge as he does. We sometimes disagree on things, but I think it is fair to say that his heart is in the same place as mine. However, if he will hear me out—
Richard Harrington
If the hon. Gentleman will give me a few minutes, I will finish. If he is not satisfied with what I have to say, I will be happy to take his questions.
On the point made by the hon. Member for Huddersfield about this being a controversial SI in the House of Lords, as I thought, it is yet to be debated in the House of Lords. That does not, of course, mean that he will not be right in future, but it has certainly not been debated up until now, so I clarify that for the record.
The SI will preserve, where possible and appropriate, existing arrangements in UK copyright legislation by making minor correcting amendments. The only exception to the principle of continuity arises from our implementation of some of the EU cross-border copyright mechanisms. It is unavoidable that the reciprocal elements of those mechanisms between the EU and the UK will become inoperable in a no-deal scenario, because they depend on reciprocal provisions that only apply between member states. We have therefore considered how best to address our implementation of those mechanisms.
In some cases, it is appropriate to continue to extend the cross-border provisions to the EU on a unilateral basis, because providing continuity in that way would be beneficial to UK consumers or businesses. That is the case for the copyright country of origin principle in satellite broadcasting. In that case, the regulations will support UK consumers and give them continued access to foreign television programmes by not introducing new barriers to broadcasts in the UK. For other mechanisms, doing so would be detrimental to those in the UK. For example, continuing to provide database rights for EU creators without reciprocal action by the EU would put UK businesses at a competitive disadvantage. This instrument restricts those mechanisms to operate on a purely domestic basis or brings them to an end, as appropriate.
Mr Sheerman
On a point of order, Sir Edward. I have been on several Delegated Legislation Committees, and this is the most complex SI I have dealt with. I did not have access to this material before I walked into this room. As a Member of Parliament, I find myself floundering, because it is so highly complex—I speak as someone who has a lot of sons-in-law, one of whom is an intellectual property lawyer, and as someone who has been given a little bit of information about how important this issue is to businesses. Could this meeting be deferred so that we can actually read this stuff? I feel that I am not doing my duty, and you, Sir Edward, are more punctilious than anyone else in the Palace in how you regard parliamentary accountability. I have walked in here on a busy day, after three statements, and I am faced with all this material that I have not had advance notice of and have not had a chance to read. How can I do my job as a Member of Parliament?
Richard Harrington
I shall do my best. Impact assessments are worked out on what is called the de minimis threshold. That means that if the impact is expected to be less than, from memory, £5 million, there is no need to do an impact assessment. In the judgment of the people who work these things out, it is below that level. That is why there is no separate impact assessment.
Richard Harrington
Yes.
I will continue and then, if this is acceptable, Sir Edward, I can pick up other points after I have finished, if hon. Members feel that I have not covered them. The shadow Minister usually feels that I have not done so.
In support of the instrument, we have published three impact assessments, each of which has been green-rated by the independent Regulatory Policy Committee. They correspond to three of the most significant cross-border mechanisms: sui generis database rights, the copyright country of origin principle, and cross-border portability of online content services, which allow EU consumers to access their online streaming or rental services as if they were at home when they visit another member state.
The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the European Statutory Instruments Committee commented that the assessments did not provide sufficient detail on the impact of no deal on UK stakeholders. The reasons for that are the same in each case: the impacts on UK consumers, broadcasters and other stakeholders will result from the UK’s being treated as a third country in a no-deal scenario, not from these regulations, which amend the UK’s portion of the cross-border provisions and will primarily affect EU right holders, consumers and broadcasters.
In line with the “Better regulation framework”, the impact assessments consider the effects of the instrument under consideration and not—this is significant—the impacts that arise from other countries’ legislation, which we cannot avoid in a no-deal situation. However, we recognise that those impacts exist and that UK stakeholders will need to be aware of them. That is why in November 2018 the Government published a long-term economic analysis of the impacts of leaving the EU. We have also published technical notices and detailed guidance on what a no-deal Brexit would mean for copyright and related rights. This gives consumers, right holders, businesses and other organisations the information they need in plain English to make informed preparations for all outcomes.
Richard Harrington
I now fully understand what the hon. Lady was saying. The Government did not carry out a formal consultation. Given that it was during the negotiations with the European Union on the future trading relationship, it was felt at the time that making everything public would have impaired our ability to do that. However, I can confirm that the Department conducted industry roundtable discussions with individuals from a range of organisations across all sectors. In this sector, that included the Commercial Broadcasters Association, Directors UK, the PRS for Music—the performing rights society—techUK, which represents over 900 technology firms, the Libraries and Archives Copyright Alliance, the British Library, the Publishers Association, the Society of Authors, the Association of Photographers and the Authors Licensing and Collecting Society, among others. In roundtable discussions, the Department talked to and listened to the concerns of stakeholders from right across the affected industries.
The Chair
Mr Sheerman
Can I have a further intervention? Were any senior figures in the industry involved, such as Richard Branson or the heads of the big conglomerates? There are a number of key players in this area of intellectual property, and it is vital for the vibrancy of our film, television and creative sectors. The Minister and I get on very well and I like him—I do not like all Ministers, but I like this one.
Mr Sheerman
No. The fact of the matter is that I am learning the lessons, Sir Edward. It has been a heavy day and I have been trying to catch up on this as the Minister was speaking.
Mr Sheerman
No, I am not wandering. I have been in so many Delegated Legislation Committees in which I have asked the Minister, “What is the downside of this?” Ministers keep saying to me, “It’s all going to be all right. These few regulations will make it all right,” and then I go out and talk to the industry, which says, “It’s not all right. There’s going to be severe dislocation.” Is the Minister suggesting that participants in those roundtable discussions said, “It’s all right, Minister, wonderful; steady as you go,” or did they have serious reservations about leaving the EU and about the impact on their sector?
Richard Harrington
I can answer that question in the following way. The hon. Gentleman knows that I have a lot of respect for him and that we share many views. I do not know what the views of the stakeholders on leaving the EU were—I imagine they would have thought it detrimental to their businesses, but I was not party to that. Today, we are talking about a specific piece of secondary legislation for the event of crashing out of the EU—a hard Brexit.
I do not know the rank of the people involved, and I cannot say whether Richard Branson was involved. He is offshore and is allowed only 90 days here, so perhaps he was not allowed to come. I cannot comment on that. However, I assure the hon. Gentleman that there were proper senior people representing proper companies and proper entities. I do not think that the Department had a plan for only low-level people to attend. I cannot say who was there. I am not withholding information; I am afraid I do not know. Having had more than two years’ experience of the Department, I can say it is fairly thorough in its consultations with stakeholders.
Richard Harrington
I must apologise for not sitting down, Sir Edward. I have never had so many interventions in an SI.
Richard Harrington
Yes, it is. The hon. Member for Huddersfield has been to far more than I have.
I hope the shadow Whip will accept that I am not generally one for waffle on this kind of thing. I do not know the answer to his question, but I know that formal minutes were not published because there was a discussion rather than a formal consultation. He does not have a copy of the minutes in his pack because there are not any.
Richard Harrington
I thank the hon. Lady for that contribution. I disagree with her because there has been a fairly thorough informal consultation, although I fully accept that is not the same as a formal consultation. I noticed a look of disdain on the shadow Minister’s face, which his face does not normally give away, but it did in this particular case.
Mr Sheerman
This is a nice intervention in the sense that we are here to learn. That is our job. Sir Edward is the expert on this and people respect his experience. We are trying to do a thorough job. I apologise for pushing the Minister on this, but what he has just described is almost a secret meeting that took no minutes. There was a meeting. We do not know who was there. There is no record of who was there and no record of what was discussed and whether people said, “Steady as you go, mate. Get on with it,” or whether they had severe reservations. The consultation seems a bit strange.
Richard Harrington
There were roundtable discussions, not a formal consultation that was put online. It was a group of stakeholders that the Department thought were the relevant ones. The Department wanted to hear their views and listen to what they had to say, and that is reflected in this no-deal statutory instrument. The point that the hon. Gentleman makes—he usually makes it—is about the view of industry and business on leaving the European Union. In this case, we are talking about a limited amount of what we might call crash-out, emergency, hard-Brexit statutory instruments. No minute was kept because it was not a formal consultation, but roundtables are like that—people raise their views and officials take note of them.
Richard Harrington
I do not want to mislead my hon. Friend. I do not know about this specific case, but I could give him other examples in which the Department has consulted with stakeholders. I assure him categorically that their views on Brexit would be the last consideration. The Department is a professional organisation run by very professional civil servants. From a ministerial point of view, I have come across no case in which any Minister would say, “We are having that company in, but not that one.” That would be very improper. I reassure him categorically on that point.
Mr Sheerman
The Minister was the first person to start using extravagant language about crashing out of Europe. Most of us still want to see a harmonious process with a smooth transition out of Europe. His term “crash-out” is extremely worrying for people in the creative industries in this country, many of whom would be deeply disadvantaged by our crashing out of Europe with no protection for their intellectual property or their many years of creative work. The Minister used the words “crash-out”. Were there any people at the roundtable like Sir Bob Geldof, who is a leader in the industry and runs a large number of companies? He would have known what to say. Let’s get him in—let’s talk to Sir Bob! [Interruption.] The Minister thinks I am star-struck because I have mentioned two well known figures, but they are well known figures in the industry. Why were they not consulted?
Richard Harrington
I think we have covered the consultation. The hon. Gentleman’s point is that we should have published the response as if it were a formal consultation, but I have accepted that it was not.
I reiterate that the Department hosted a whole series of industry roundtables to discuss no-deal planning generally with publishers, collection management organisations, broadcasters, technology firms, museum archives and educational institutions. During the drafting of the regulations, we listened to the concerns of stake- holders that published their views on the issues and opportunities for IP arising from Brexit, such as the Alliance for Intellectual Property and the British Copyright Council, which are representative bodies that cover a broad range of copyright interests. We also published the technical notices with detailed guidance on what no deal might mean for copyright and regulated rights.
Mr Sheerman
Can I be helpful, as someone who was a Select Committee Chair for 10 years? When we did an inquiry, we put out a call for evidence, which was printed in the papers and shared on social media and so on, so anyone who wanted to give evidence to the Public Accounts Committee or the Education Committee could write in. Was this wider consultation publicised and broadly known about? Were people told about it and could they submit their evidence or signify their interest in the topic? Did the Minister get many responses?
Richard Harrington
I can clarify that it was not like a Select Committee inquiry, which is online and public. This was a series of meetings of stakeholders to talk about the issues, so it is not a fair comparison. I fully accept, however, that in the hon. Gentleman’s opinion, the Department should have held a full public consultation, but for the reasons that I explained before, it did not. We are satisfied with the results, however, and we are happy to stand by the draft regulations.
Bombardier
Debate between Barry Sheerman and Lord Harrington of Watford(6 years ago)
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Richard Harrington
I cannot speak for the hon. Gentleman’s experience in his constituency, but it is my impression, from my dealings with Bombardier and other companies in the Northern Ireland cluster, that they are well integrated and co-ordinated with each other. He asks me to redouble my efforts, however, and I certainly will do. I will bear in mind his point in every visit I make and every conversation I have.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
The hon. Gentleman is a decent man sent to the House to do a dirty job. I say in the nicest way that he should not try to bamboozle the House. Michael Ryan is a good chief executive—indeed, he is a “Make it in Great Britain” industry champion for the Government—and Bombardier is a damned good company. We know it. I have just been to Northern Ireland, and I know how proud Northern Ireland is of it, but the reality is that it is an integrated global business, and the disturbance created by our leaving the EU is having a deep effect, including on Airbus and supply chains. Michael Ryan and his team are very unsettled by what the Government are doing in coming out of Europe and upsetting the supply chains. Behind all this is our leaving Europe. The Minister should take that on board.
Richard Harrington
I hope you would agree, Mr Speaker, that I am not a bamboozler by nature, and it is certainly not my intention to bamboozle the House or the hon. Gentleman. On the serious point, the company has said this is not a Brexit-related decision.
Richard Harrington
It has said that very clearly. As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, aerospace is a truly international business and frictionless trade is an important part of it, and I believe that the deal the Prime Minister has been negotiating, which will provide for frictionless trade to help manufacturing industry in the future, will help Bombardier and all other companies remain strong. The Irish trade unions have issued a statement urging the deal to happen.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Barry Sheerman and Lord Harrington of Watford(6 years ago)
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Richard Harrington
Actually, I correct my right hon. Friend. I said that six sector deals had been concluded and more are in the pipeline. They are very complex. They involve a lot of industry money and many industrial partners who have never been involved in deals with the Government before. I would be delighted to meet him at any time to discuss how I am pushing these on as quickly as I can.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Is the Minister aware that tourism, just like the manufacturing sector, particularly in Yorkshire, is finding it very difficult to get skilled people, especially as more Europeans go back to their home countries in fear of Brexit? What is he going to do about attracting and retaining skilled workers in tourism and manufacturing?
Richard Harrington
I am very aware of the hon. Gentleman’s point. Only last week, I met with Hilton Hotels and Resorts, a big employer in this sector, while the Grove, in my own constituency, has raised exactly the same point. The industry has a high turnover of labour and, as he says, has depended for some time on labour from abroad. I hope that more UK people will enter the hotel and hospitality industry, but the fact is that in many areas there is almost full employment.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Barry Sheerman and Lord Harrington of Watford(6 years, 5 months ago)
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Richard Harrington
I agree with my right hon. Friend. This is a very important project for him, as the Member of Parliament for Whitby. It is an important developing business, and I agree that it is exactly the kind of business that would benefit from our industrial strategy.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I worked for some years in the chemical industry, so let us talk in real terms. We are talking about potash, and as one of the biggest reserves of potash in Europe, this business is seriously important. On a day like today, when we face the ruination of Brexit, when my local engineering companies are desperate about losing their markets in Europe and when Ministers are resigning, it is vital that we use this resource to compensate for the disaster in the rest of the economy.
Richard Harrington
I agree with the hon. Gentleman; this potash project is very exciting and very good for the UK. It is exactly the kind of business that he would want in his area, and it will help businesses throughout the United Kingdom.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Barry Sheerman and Lord Harrington of Watford(6 years, 7 months ago)
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Richard Harrington
As usual, my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) makes a good point—although, unusually, on this occasion he did not mention the John Lewis Partnership. Our Faraday battery challenge, which he indirectly refers to, will ensure that this country is at the forefront of battery technology, and JLR and other companies are firmly behind it.
Draft Electricity Capacity (Amendment) Regulations 2017
Debate between Barry Sheerman and Lord Harrington of Watford(7 years, 1 month ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Electricity Capacity (Amendment) Regulations 2017.
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Southampton, Test. The Opposition Whip and I were texting him, but I knew he would be here. I am sure I will face a reasoned and thought-out speech, which we Ministers do not like, but which will be a pleasure to hear in his case.
The draft regulations will amend two secondary legislation packages for the capacity market. The powers to make and implement the secondary legislation are found in the Energy Act 2013, which received Royal Assent in December 2013 with, I am pleased to say, cross-party support following scrutiny in the House and the other place. I will explain the changes in detail, but first, for hon. Members who are less familiar with the capacity market, I will explain it in terms as I understand them.
The capacity market is an insurance policy to ensure that the necessary supply is always available. The money is used to ensure that power is available as demand from the grid goes up and down, perhaps because a particularly interesting horse race or an episode of “EastEnders” is on the television, or more typically because of a good cold snap—or a bad cold snap, depending on how one looks at it. In many cases, suppliers are paid when supply is not needed, but the market has allowed us to have a consistent and readily available source of capacity for all contingencies. That main purpose received cross-party support. It is for Members on both sides and for the Government to secure that capacity, and they have done it pretty well.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
This stuff will be quite difficult to digest not just for the Committee but for our constituents, who have to pay a hell of a lot of money for their electricity. I hope the Minister will go into some detail about risk finance schemes and applicant credit cover, because I cannot go back to my constituents in Huddersfield, who are highly intelligent people, without an explanation.
Richard Harrington
I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s analysis of the good burghers of Huddersfield, because I come from Leeds—
Richard Harrington
I could not possibly comment, but we are all Yorkshiremen, including you, Mr Davies—not that that would affect your chairing of the Committee.
From memory, the actual cost of the capacity for our constituents is about £2 a year on their bill. I am not making light of it, but for what we get from it as a country and for what suppliers get for their customers, I think it is good value for money. There have been power cuts in other countries—even in quite developed places such as California and Australia—where they did not have such a sophisticated system, so there is a risk. When I said it was for hon. Members on both sides to ensure capacity, I did not mean just members of this Committee; the whole of Parliament in 2013 realised that this was a good thing to do.
I will go into more detail, and if the hon. Gentleman then feels that I have not answered his questions I will be able to do so—it will be nearer lunch time, and he may feel that I have covered most of it.
Richard Harrington
I agree, as I think most other people would, because generally the system works. To use the layman’s language I always use—being a Yorkshireman, I try to simplify things in a way so that I understand them; I cannot claim to have the technical expertise of the shadow Minister on this—the regulations propose a tweaking of something that works, rather than radical and complete change. I will make some progress, and if hon. Members would like to ask questions or intervene, they should obviously do so, subject to your largesse, Mr Davies.
The five changes in the draft instrument are essentially technical. They will improve fairness, ensure the competitiveness of auctions and provide important clarifications to scheme operations. The Department held a fairly lengthy public consultation on the changes and the majority of respondents agreed with them—more than 75%. I agree that it is important that people know how much the market costs, but if we did not have a capacity market and every individual had the choice of paying £2 or x pounds to make sure they do not have blackout periods, I am sure that most people would probably pay it anyway. It is not like that, but thinking about it in terms of what it means to customers and our constituents is right, as the hon. Member for Huddersfield mentioned. All the technical stuff we are here to discuss does not matter if in the end it boils down to continuity of supply at that price. He was absolutely right to mention that, as was my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire.
We have the capacity market to ensure—as is the Government’s job—that we always have sufficient electricity capacity in Britain for the winter periods and for periods of exceptional demand. We need to give generators the confidence that they will receive the revenues they need to maintain, upgrade and refurbish their existing plants, and to finance and build new plants to come on stream as and when existing assets retire. They have to think ahead, and knowing that they are going to get these funds is part of their planning.
The capacity market also ensures that those who are able to shift demand for electricity away from periods of greater scarcity, without detriment to themselves and the wider economy, are incentivised to do so. It does so by offering capacity providers who are successful in these competitive auctions—there are two types; some bid for one year ahead and some for four years ahead—a steady, predictable revenue stream on which they can base their future investments. In return for those capacity payments, providers must meet their obligations to deliver electricity at times of system stress, or not deliver it if it is not needed, or face penalties.
Mr Sheerman
On the longer four-year period, we have a rapidly changing energy market, and many of us are delighted with the diversity of more sustainable energy providers coming on and providing a lot of our energy needs. Will the four-year period allow us to have that more flexible, diverse energy market?
Richard Harrington
That is a valid question, as I would expect from the hon. Gentleman. Having both four years and one year takes care of that. Four years is needed because of the investment cycle; suppliers have to plan and have some consistency. Things change a lot, and there is a lot of uncertainty when predicting four years ahead.
Richard Harrington
I believe that is extremely unlikely, but we all have our views on that subject; certainly, if this measure is voted down today, I am sure the Prime Minister will have no choice. In all seriousness, the hon. Gentleman makes a valid point, but if it were left only to the shorter, one-year cycle, I cannot see people taking the kind of investment decisions needed. Of course, it is arguable—some might say they want 10 years. When the rest of the electricity supply market—not the capacity market but the normal supply market—starts to build huge wind turbine farms and gets planning permission to build nuclear power stations and all those other things, those are all judged on 20 to 30-year cycles, so it is difficult.
The officials think that four years and one year are right, but it is always up for review, and if the market changed completely we would want the flexibility to be able to act. For the moment, it works. It sounds arrogant for Government to say it, but I think most people think the capacity market is working. Self-evidently, it is working.