Draft Social Security Coordination (Reciprocal Healthcare) (Amendment etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Draft National Health Service (Cross-Border Healthcare and Miscellaneous Amendments etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Draft Health Services (Cross-Border Health Care and Miscellaneous Amendments) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Debate
Full Debate: Read Full DebateDepartment: Department of Health and Social Care
Barry Sheerman
Main Page: Barry Sheerman (Labour (Co-op) - Huddersfield)Department Debates - View all Barry Sheerman's debates with the Department of Health and Social Care
Draft Social Security Coordination (Reciprocal Healthcare) (Amendment etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Draft National Health Service (Cross-Border Healthcare and Miscellaneous Amendments etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Draft Health Services (Cross-Border Health Care and Miscellaneous Amendments) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Barry Sheerman Excerpts(5 years, 1 month ago)
General CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Stephen Hammond
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I am grateful to the Committee for agreeing to discuss these regulations together, which seems logical to me. I welcome the hon. Member for Dewsbury, who is debating with me. I want to put on record at the start that the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), who is no longer on the Labour Front Bench, conducted himself in a helpful and constructive way in this particular part of our discussions about EU exit, which is about reciprocal healthcare and the good of all our constituents.
I would also like to put on record my thanks to the Scottish Government and the Welsh Assembly, and the Labour Government there, for their help with the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill, on which we have had legislative consent motions. That is a record, because it is the only piece of EU exit legislation to which we have a legislative consent motion. It will mean, hopefully, that some of the things that we are discussing tonight will be easier to implement when that Bill comes through, either tomorrow or some other time.
Mr Sheerman
Before the Minister gets into full flow, I would like to say that I have been to lots of these Committees—I do not know if someone up there loves me or the Whips have a grudge—but I have never come across one that is such a rag-bag of things. As a Member of Parliament, I am supposed to give parliamentary scrutiny to this whole rag-bag of very important pieces of delegated legislation. Is that just because the Minister is in a hurry? This disaster of Brexit is coming and we are throwing everything at it. Up until now, we have had one statutory instrument, debated it in some detail and, by and large, felt that we have led some accountability. This looks like a total mess. How can we do our job properly with this large number of documents in front of us?
Stephen Hammond
The hon. Gentleman has been in the House much longer than I have. He will know that it is not unusual to have statutory instruments grouped together. In fact, last week a number of SIs from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs were grouped together and discussed on the Floor of the House, and then voted on individually.
The rationale for this evening’s grouping is simple: they are all to do with reciprocal healthcare, ensuring that our citizens—in either a deal or, particularly, a no-deal situation—have the potential to have the rights that they currently enjoy, which is the Government’s aim. That is why I have asked for them to be grouped together. I am grateful to the Committee for allowing that. Had the hon. Gentleman chosen to do so, we could have discussed them individually. If he allows me the time to progress with my speech, I hope he will see the logic of why we have grouped them this evening.
Stephen Hammond
If the hon. Lady will allow me, I will tackle that in my speech. I will set out the arrangements that are in place with the Northern Ireland Executive, and if she is then not happy I will try to answer any questions at the end.
Mr Sheerman
I have to explain this accountability and scrutiny work I am doing to my constituents, so before the Minister sets sail—I wish him a really nice journey, with no problems—will he be putting the SIs into layman’s language, carefully going through them and saying what they really mean in the sort of language his constituents, along with mine and yours, Sir David, could understand?
Stephen Hammond
The hon. Gentleman can only test that and prove whether he has done his work on accountability after he has heard what I have to say, so I hope he will allow me to say it. I read this speech last week and it went back for re-writing, so I hope that it is now in the sort of language that both he and I and, importantly, our constituents will be able to understand.
Stephen Hammond
Here we go.
The Government are introducing these three statutory instruments under section 8 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, to correct deficiencies in retained EU law relating to reciprocal and cross-border healthcare, and to ensure that the law is operable on exit day. When the UK leaves the EU, that Act will automatically retain the relevant EU legislation and the domestic implementing legislation in UK law. In a no-deal scenario, however, if we did not legislate further, the regulations would be incoherent and unworkable without reciprocity from member states. There would be a lack of clarity about patients’ rights to UK-funded healthcare in EU and European Free Trade Association countries.
Current EU reciprocal healthcare arrangements enable people to access healthcare when they live, study, work or travel in EU and EFTA countries, and in the UK. They give people retiring abroad more security, they support tourism and business, and they facilitate healthcare co-operation. The Government intend to continue those reciprocal and cross-border healthcare arrangements, as they are now, in any exit scenario until at least December 2020.
In a deal scenario, the in principle agreement we have reached with the EU under the withdrawal agreement is that during the implementation period—until 31 December 2020—all reciprocal and cross-border healthcare entitlements will continue. There will be no changes to healthcare for UK pensioners, workers, students, tourists and other visitors, and the European health insurance card scheme and planned treatment will continue. That would all be legislated for in the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill. The Government want to secure a wider reciprocal healthcare agreement with EU and EFTA states following the end of the implementation period, which will support a broad range of people. We will negotiate that with our European partners during phase 2 of the talks on our future relationship.
In a no-deal scenario, our proposal to all EU and EFTA countries is to maintain the current reciprocal healthcare arrangements for at least a transitional period lasting until December 2020, to ensure that UK nationals can continue to access affordable healthcare when in the EU.
Mr Sheerman
When we get our EHIC card and go across to anywhere in Europe, we are sure that if we need medical attention it is covered by those reciprocal agreements. Is the Minister saying that for a short transitional period the continuity of that process will be maintained but that it will all end when we leave the European Union?
Stephen Hammond
No, that is not at all what I am saying. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman was listening carefully. I was saying that in a deal scenario all current arrangements will continue and in a no-deal scenario we are seeking to put in place interim arrangements. In both scenarios we seek to have an arrangement that will continue reciprocal healthcare after the implementation period. Were he to vote for the withdrawal agreement, the EHIC card he was talking about would continue to be used, certainly until December 2020 and possibly much later depending upon what we negotiate. These regulations seek to ensure that UK law is consistent, so that the arrangements that are in place in a potential no-deal scenario can allow reciprocal healthcare arrangements to continue.
Mr Sheerman
When I discussed the subject with a junior Transport Minister, who is a good colleague of the Minister’s, he said that the green card—which ensures that UK drivers who are hit by an uninsured driver when driving in Europe, whether they are in their own car which they have taken to the EU or one they have hired there, are insured—will disappear as we leave the European Union and it will no longer work. He was very final about that. The hon. Gentleman is now saying that he is not sure if that is final. It is the end of a reciprocal relationship and after 2020 everyone will be uninsured when they travel abroad.
Stephen Hammond
The hon. Gentleman is putting words into my mouth that I did not say. What I said was that in a deal scenario all reciprocal arrangements will continue as per now until 31 December 2020. As I have pointed out, during that period clearly the Government will seek to negotiate an EU and EFTA states-wide continuing reciprocal arrangement. Everything we have now will immediately go into that transitional period when we negotiate. If there were a no-deal scenario, we would have to put in place interim arrangements to ensure that the current arrangements pertain. Again, during the transitional period it is the Government’s intention to seek to negotiate an EU and EFTA states-wide continuing reciprocal healthcare arrangement. However, we might also have to do that on a bilateral basis with individual states. There is no intention or expectation from the Government—or from the EU or EFTA states—that 31 December 2020 is a break point. I hope that I have satisfied the hon. Gentleman on that point.
Stephen Hammond
I am not going to respond to the chuntering from the floor, other than to note very clearly what—
Stephen Hammond
The Government want to secure a wider reciprocal healthcare agreement with EU and EFTA states following the end of the implementation period, which supports a broad range of people. That is what I have just explained. In a no-deal scenario, our proposal to all EU and EFTA countries is to maintain the current reciprocal healthcare arrangements for at least a transitional period to ensure that UK nationals can continue to access affordable healthcare when they are in the EU.
The statutory instruments we consider today will support us to do that with the countries we are able to negotiate those agreements with. However, our proposal depends on reciprocity from other European countries and we are in advanced discussions with member states to ensure continuity. In the event that an agreement cannot be reached, healthcare cover for those nationals may change.
We have approached and are in discussion with other member states and are prioritising those that are the major pensioner, worker and tourist destinations. The UK and Irish Governments are committed to continuing access to healthcare arrangements within the common travel area and both Governments are taking legislative steps to ensure we can implement the arrangements in time for exit day.
The Government welcome the action by EU member states who have prepared their own legislation for a no-deal scenario, including, but not limited to, Spain, France, Portugal, and Belgium. Depending on the decisions by other member states, it is important to acknowledge that access to healthcare could change.
Mr Sheerman
Did I hear the Minister right? Forgive me for another intervention, Sir David. Did the Minister say that he thanks those other European states, because they are negotiating this? It is not final, is it? As I said earlier, this is a “coming home on a wing and a prayer” policy. Our constituents should know the position, surely. We are Members of Parliament; we are paid to come here and represent our constituents. The Minister is telling me that this legislation will mean that after 2020 they will not be insured for their healthcare when they travel abroad. That is what he is saying, because there is no certainty in what he says.
Stephen Hammond
The hon. Gentleman is completely wrong: that is not what I am saying. I will say this once again for him. If the withdrawal agreement is signed—I urge him to vote for it, because that would provide certainty for his constituents—the current arrangements will continue, and it is the Government’s intention, during the transitional period, the implementation period, to negotiate an EU and EFTA states continuing arrangement. In a no-deal scenario, we will have to put in place interim arrangements, and that is what we are discussing now. It would still be the intention—it is a very clear expectation of the Government and is very clear from the stated ambitions and comments of the EU—that reciprocal healthcare would be the subject of a negotiation, either on an EU-wide basis or by individual member states.
I accept that there is some element of uncertainty, but I hope that I can now reassure the hon. Gentleman. Each of the 27 EU member states is a country with universal healthcare, and in general people have good options for obtaining healthcare, provided that they take the appropriate steps. Depending on the country, it will be possible to access healthcare through legal residency, current or previous employment, or by joining a social insurance scheme. Less frequently, people may need to purchase private insurance. It is always the advice when people travel overseas, including to Europe, that they should purchase appropriate travel insurance. People have always been encouraged to do that. However, I appreciate that it can be difficult for some people with long-term conditions, and it is important that people make the best decisions for their circumstances when choosing to travel.
As is the case now, UK nationals who return to live permanently in the UK will be able to access NHS care. UK nationals who currently have their healthcare funded by the UK and are resident in the EU on exit day can use NHS services in England without charge when they temporarily visit England. We recognise that that might mean change, and in some circumstances additional expense, for UK nationals living abroad. It is to avoid that that we are bringing forward these statutory instruments.
I would like to reassure the Committee that the Government have issued advice, via Government and NHS websites, to UK nationals living in and travelling to EU and EFTA states and to EU citizens living in the UK. The advice to UK nationals explains how the UK is working to maintain reciprocal healthcare arrangements, but that their continuation depends on decisions by member states. It also sets out what options people might have to access healthcare under local laws in the country that they live in if we do not have bilateral arrangements in place, and what people can do to prepare.
Mr Sheerman
The Minister has lifted the lid on this. It is horrific news for our constituents—for people who live in Huddersfield and Dewsbury and all the constituents we represent. It is, in stark terms, the end of the assurance that people can travel around Europe. We all had our little card and we knew that we did not have to go out and get private health insurance; we would be covered. We had that peace of mind. What the Minister is saying today, in plain language, is that that peace of mind will end. He has just read that out. It will end unless by luck, some wing and a prayer policy that arrives from this incompetent Government actually delivers something that they cannot promise and cannot deliver.
Stephen Hammond
The hon. Gentleman is a noble exponent of the art of opposition, but he is sensationalising and misunderstanding what I say. I have not said that the arrangements are not going to continue; what I have said is that in a no-deal scenario there may be some circumstances where people have to consider different arrangements from what they have already. It is the Government’s intention, in both a deal and a no-deal scenario, that these arrangements should continue, and that is what we will put in place this afternoon, if we ever get there.
Stephen Hammond
It is correct only in the unlikely circumstance of a no-deal scenario, and only in that there may not be interim arrangements put in place immediately after exit in a no-deal scenario. That is why I am setting out what the possibility might be, but I stressed that this is not what the Government hope for. Neither is it something that the Government expect or that is the Government’s ambition. What I have said is that, in the unlikely circumstance of a no-deal scenario, there may be some changes that some people need to make.
Mr Sheerman
On a point of order, Sir David. I know this Minister to be a very honest man, but I think he is in danger of misleading the Committee, only in this sense—that he keeps saying “only if we crash out without a deal”. I am sorry, but as I read the documents and listen to him when he reads from them, that does not appear to be the case. It seems to me that, whatever happens when we leave the EU, the security of being insured as people travel around Europe will disappear, whether we crash out or whether we achieve a deal.
The Chair
As a Member of 40 years’ standing, the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that no one can be accused of misleading anyone, so I am sure that he did not mean to say that. And as far as the point of order is concerned, it was not a point of order; it was a point of exasperation.
Stephen Hammond
What I am telling the hon. Lady about the specific statutory instrument, the Health Services (Cross-Border Health Care and Miscellaneous Amendments) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, is that consent was sought from the Northern Ireland civil service, and was provided by the permanent secretary for the Department of Health for Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland civil service may make decisions in the public interest under the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018. Again, following decisions by UK Government Ministers, in the interest of securing legal certainty in Northern Ireland, the UK Government will progress the necessary secondary legislation in close consultation. As I have said, consent was sought from the Northern Ireland civil service, and was granted.
Stephen Hammond
It is not a constitutional point. I will not take the hon. Gentleman’s intervention.
The Chair
Order. We can have only one person on their feet at a time. Is it the case that the Minister is not giving way?
Stephen Hammond
I have given way on a number of occasions. I am bound to say to the hon. Member for Huddersfield that I have been clear about the legal position and the legal certainty. I have given clarity that the Northern Ireland civil service and the Northern Ireland Department of Health are clear and are consenting to what we are doing.
Stephen Hammond
Then the hon. Gentleman does not need to ask me, because I have just answered his question.
In addition, I am pleased to report that we have the legislative consent motions for our Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill. To underpin and facilitate the consultation, we have developed and agreed a memorandum of understanding with the devolved Administrations, which sets out a practical and mutually beneficial working relationship. That will ensure that the devolved Administrations will continue to play a vital role in delivering reciprocal healthcare for the benefit of all United Kingdom nationals.
Mr Sheerman
The Minister is a little grudging, but it is an important issue. He has gone through all the people whom he has consulted in Northern Ireland, and they all sounded like bureaucrats and civil servants to me. I did not hear him once say that he had confronted the facts of what is happening, through the statutory instruments, to our parliamentary colleagues or that he had put it to them. For all these years, their constituents have felt that they could go all over Europe and carry with them an extension or a bubble of the national health service that delivered the NHS promise, even though they were travelling. Did they get the picture? Were they told in blunt terms that that will no longer exist for their constituents? For people who are travelling, it is the old Tory dream of privatising the health service.
Stephen Hammond
I was going to say that I can see why the Speaker regards the hon. Gentleman as a national treasure, but after his final remarks, it is difficult to agree.
In closing, I make it clear that the instruments make miscellaneous amendments to EU references in retained EU law—for example, by removing references to EU concepts. Moreover, together with the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill, the instruments are necessary to ensure that the UK Government are ready to deal with reciprocal and cross-border healthcare in any EU exit scenario. They provide us with an efficient and effective mechanism to ensure that there will be no interruption to people’s healthcare in a no-deal scenario.
I thank members of the Committee for their valuable contributions.
Mr Sheerman
I do not want to speak for more than half an hour, but I must make the point about this bundling. I have been on many Delegated Legislation Committees and have become quite an expert on statutory instruments.
Stephen Hammond
If the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Walthamstow did not want the statutory instruments to be bundled, they could have said so at the beginning of the Committee. The Government did nothing other than seek the permission of the Committee to bundle them. Should the Committee have wished, I would have been perfectly happy to unbundle them.
Stephen Hammond
I recognise the concerns of the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady and I will address their points, but the Government asked the Committee to agree, and the Committee agreed to the bundling of the statutory instruments.
Mr Sheerman
I take that point. There has been honest confusion, because when the Minister introduced the statutory instruments, I did not realise that, because they had all been bundled, I could not have a responsible view and single out the statutory instrument relating to Northern Ireland. I would not want to vote against that, but I want to vote against the others. I did not realise that was what would happen; I thought we would vote on each one.
The Chair
Order. I should clarify that there will be the opportunity to vote against each statutory instrument separately.
Mr Sheerman
That is reassuring. Those of us who have become experienced with statutory instruments in these Committee rooms, with brilliant Chairs who keep the peace, try to do our job as parliamentarians and scrutinise them, but there is a large number of them. We trundle up here; very often the Minister gabbles through his or her speech and gets quite sulky if someone intervenes. This Minister has not —he has given way in good humour and I thank him for it—but many Ministers gabble through and get irritated if Members intervene. This hothouse of Committees churning through this stuff is something of a national scandal. We all know that we do not have the time to scrutinise the legislation.
The Chair
Order. The hon. Gentleman’s remarks are very wide; they are general remarks about the way these matters are dealt with.
Mr Sheerman
Quite right; I just wanted to set the context. I am very unhappy that these statutory instruments are scrambled together, but I thought that we would not be able to vote on each one, so I am reassured.
These statutory instruments look quite innocent, but we have unpicked them and asked the Minister questions, and there will be a dramatic impact on our constituents when they travel. They will no longer have the protection that we have all got used to over many years of going round Europe and knowing that we do not have to take up time with insurance because our insurance from the national health service follows us, with this lovely card that we all carry. Most of my constituents and those of Members here will be shocked when they go on holiday and are told, “You have to get private insurance; you won’t be covered. The green card doesn’t cover you because if an uninsured driver hits you, you’ll be in real trouble.” This is a serious issue. We are taking away from the citizens of this country the health protection that they have got used to after many years. The Minister says, “At some point it will all turn out all right because the negotiations will deliver something.” I cannot, hand on heart, say to my constituents that there will not be an abrupt change to all their holiday and business travel plans.
I only wanted to make that point, but I wanted to make it forcefully. I hope the Minister has not taken umbrage—I hope no other Committee members have, either—but it is our job to scrutinise and unpick some of the things that come before us. The Minister has been generous in taking interventions and, although I am not satisfied and will vote against some of the SIs, I am pleased that we have had some debate rather than sitting here supine, accepting stuff that comes down from the Executive.