Baroness Warsi
Main Page: Baroness Warsi (Non-affiliated - Life peer)
Baroness Warsi (Con)
My Lords, I start by apologising for the fact that I may not sound completely coherent today. I am suffering from a migraine and not able to see my notes properly, so I am going to have to guess at what I was going to say. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, for calling this debate as it is an important subject to be discussed but I urge her to read back the speech that she just made in Hansard. I say that because it is important for us to work out what it is that we are debating here today. If we are debating a series of headlines which regularly appear in the Daily Mail about what may have happened around the country, then that is a completely different debate. Invariably, as we have found out, those newspapers are incredibly good at headlines but carry very little factually. I urge the noble Baroness to look at a fantastic programme made by Peter Oborne—
Baroness Flather
The noble Baroness says I am relying on headlines and newspaper reports. I am not. There is so much evidence which has been collected by various researchers and taken from women. These are their own stories and views; this is not about headlines. I am sorry, I cannot accept that. It is an easy-peasy way to put it down.
Baroness Warsi
I urge the noble Baroness to listen to an incredibly interesting programme by Peter Oborne, “It Shouldn’t Happen to a Muslim”, where he unpicks some of these stories about takeovers in Birmingham, girls and boys at Leicester University, et cetera.
Let me take this back to what I think it is about: a distinction between Sharia and Sharia law. Sharia exists in the United Kingdom in our multicultural society. Noble Lords will be aware that only this year Britain announced to a loud fanfare that we had become the first western country in the world to issue sukuks—Islamic, Sharia-compliant bonds with which we raise funds to finance government, among other things. We announced that we would put in place Sharia-compliant student loans, start-up loans and home loans to ensure that the Muslim community could take full advantage of the opportunities this country has to offer. We have Sharia in the form of dietary requirements, with clear responsibilities in relation to halal and to shechita under Jewish law. We have very clear Sharia responsibilities in relation to births and deaths—for example, the way in which circumcisions are conducted in hospitals around this country in accordance with people’s religious rights. Sharia, like other religious practices, is therefore an everyday part of British life and has been for many years.
However, what I think we are debating today is whether we have Sharia law. As I am sure the Minister will answer, we do not. We have one system of law in England and Wales; it is English law, and that is paramount. Even within Sharia law as those discussions go—predominantly those discussions in the Daily Mail—there are two distinctions. There is a civil aspect and a criminal aspect. A criminal penal code has never been part of a discussion in the United Kingdom but civil practices have been, predominantly in domestic situations when marriages break down, and so-called Sharia councils have been set up as an alternative arbitration system for people to resolve their disputes.
The most important point that the noble Baroness makes is that all women in this country deserve the same protection, irrespective of their religion. The noble Baroness says that this is an abuse of the system. My argument would be that it is a failure of the system that Muslim women find themselves having to go before Sharia councils, because the mainstream system in the form of the civil courts does not allow them the support and protections that they deserve.
Dealing with it on that basis, we must look at what the mischief is. It is that Muslim women are not protected in the same way as other women when their marriages break down. There is a simple answer to that: recognise their marriage. That would deal with the mischief and meet all the concerns that the noble Baroness raises today. If I conduct a Muslim marriage with a Muslim man which is recognised under English law, I am afforded exactly the same protections as any other woman who conducts a marriage in this country. This means that when my marriage breaks down, I do not have to go to a Sharia council but to the civil courts. That option has been presented to both this Government and previous Governments. It is a simple amendment which can be made to allow for the recognition of such marriages. It would mean, effectively, that if any further religious marriage were conducted, the man would be charged with bigamy. Both would be legally recognised and we would therefore have the evidential basis on which to put a case of bigamy. That is what it boils down to.
If the Government can formally recognise a nikah in the way in which many government papers have submitted that it is possible to do, we will deal with this issue. If, despite having that civil protection, system and recognition, there is still a thirst out there for alternative dispute resolution, let us make sure that the alternative dispute resolution has a code of conduct, that there is a sense of training and education for people who take part in it and that it is properly monitored. Let us also make it clear that the alternative dispute resolution option is subject to English law. That is the way in which we can deal with this issue, without any reference to the plethora of other issues which are not part of this debate.
Baroness Cox (CB)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Flather on initiating this debate on a very important subject. I appreciate the way in which she opened it. She did not rely on headlines but on some very substantive issues. I take the distinction made by the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, between Sharia and Sharia law. Sharia is much wider. It contains many aspects of ways of life, including times of prayer and so on, and no one can take issue with those. However, what we are looking at today are those aspects of Sharia law which adversely affect women in this country.
I take this opportunity to raise some of the concerns that are reflected in my Private Member’s Bill, which is currently in your Lordships’ House, with particular reference to aspects of religiously-sanctioned gender discrimination and threats to the fundamental principle of liberal democracy and of one law for all. However, first I emphasise my primary and fundamental commitment to the essential freedom: freedom of religion and belief, as enshrined in Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I do so as a vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on International Freedom of Religion or Belief.
There may be various institutions and aspects of different faith traditions which embody gender discrimination, both in policies and practices. If women are aware of the implications of these discriminations, make an informed choice and are happy to accept these provisions then they have every right to do so. However, where women and girls involuntarily suffer as a result of such policies and practices, this should be a matter of concern in a country committed to the eradication of unacceptable gender discrimination and the promotion of gender equality.
The concerns that I will highlight in this debate are associated with the fundamental tenets inherent in many interpretations of Sharia law, which are inherently discriminatory with regard to provisions for men and women. The establishment of Sharia courts or councils in this country has promoted the application of such gender-discriminatory provisions in ways which are currently causing considerable distress for many women. I am not relying on headlines but on talking to Muslim women and their organisations.
These provisions include unequal access to divorce. As has already been said, in many situations a husband can obtain a divorce merely by saying “I divorce you” three times. Women, on the other hand, have to obtain permission from a religious authority, often a Sharia council or court, and they may have to pay and fulfil other conditions. Sometimes their husbands will not give them money, so they are trapped in the marriage. One Muslim lady described to me how, in theory, she knew she could obtain a divorce. However, she had to pay for it and, as she could not obtain the money—her husband would not give it to her—she felt as though she was in a room with an open door to freedom, but tied to a chair so that she could not walk out of that door to enjoy that freedom. Conversely, the husband usually does not have to pay anything to obtain his divorce.
Another lady, a devout Muslim, described how her husband had divorced her. When she asked her imam for a divorce, he told her that she must bring her marriage certificate, but this was in her husband’s possession. When she asked for it, he told her that it was with his family, back in their country of origin. When her family there went to his family to ask for the certificate, they beat her younger brother because she was bringing shame on the family by asking for a divorce. She is a devout Muslim, so she will not remarry without a religiously-sanctioned divorce. She is trapped and, several years later, still very lonely in this country. When I asked an imam from a major mosque why a man does not have to pay, and indicated that it takes two people to divorce, I never received a reply.
Another problem for many Muslim women is their lack of knowledge regarding the implications of having only a religious marriage, without an accompanying legally registered civil marriage. This leaves them and their children without any rights in law if they are divorced. Many say that they are not told that their religious marriage does not simultaneously provide for a legal marriage, while others say that their husbands-to-be and/or the families discourage them from obtaining a legal marriage. Of course, this leaves the husband free to practise polygamy without breaking the law against bigamy. Another aspect of gender discrimination which often applies in the practice of Sharia law relates to polygamy. A husband is entitled to take up to four wives, provided he takes responsibility for making appropriate provision for them all.
Baroness Cox
No, I am sorry; this is a timed debate. If I have time at the end, I will answer.
In many Muslim communities in this country polygamy is commonplace, although in this nation bigamy is legally forbidden. A report written by a courageous Muslim woman named Habiba Jaan, Equal and Free? 50 Muslim Women’s Experiences of Marriage in Britain Today, has just been published. In this report, Habiba describes the marital situation of 50 Muslim women in the West Midlands. Two-thirds of those who are married are in polygamous marriages. Some say that they did not know that they were a second or third wife when they were married. Of these, almost all said that their husbands fail to provide them with financial support, in contravention of Islamic teaching. Many of these women are desperately unhappy.
A related aspect of these practices of polygamy and unequal access to divorce is the number of children which one man may have. Several Muslim women have told me that men in their communities may each have up to 20 children. This clearly paves the way for children to grow up in dysfunctional families. Those children may become very vulnerable to disaffection, marginalisation and potential radicalisation.
My Private Member’s Bill, the Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill, seeks to address some of these problems by trying to ensure that women know their rights under law in this country, as well as by providing more protection for victims of domestic violence and outlawing the operation of quasi-legal courts. In another initiative last year, I moved an amendment to what was then the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill. This would have made it a requirement for the celebrant of any religious marriage which does not also provide for a legally registered marriage to ensure that both parties to the marriage are aware of the implications of that. The importance of a legal marriage was also alluded to by the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi. For some reason which I fail to understand, the Government did not accept that amendment.
The heart-wrenching, award-winning documentary film “Banaz: A Love Story” depicts the true story of a young girl who was murdered by men in her family for bringing what they saw as shame on the family. A disturbing aspect of that film was the failure of the police to provide protection for Banaz, despite her having made several visits to the police station to seek help. The Government do not support my Private Member’s Bill or my amendment, on the grounds that they are unnecessary because every citizen in this country ostensibly has access to the law of our land. However, this implies that every citizen knows their rights, and this is clearly not the case. It also ignores the reality that many closed communities can put a great deal of pressure on families and individuals not to bring what they deem to be shame on the community.
The chasm between the Government’s de jure position and the de facto reality for so many women and girls in this country today is resulting in widespread suffering, intimidation and such gender discrimination as would make the suffragettes turn in their graves. I hope that in the Palace of Westminster, where there are memorials to those suffragettes for their achievements in obtaining votes for women at a very high price, our modern-day Parliament will not betray their sacrifices or their achievements. While respecting freedom of religion and cultural diversity, I do not believe that we should allow that freedom to override the law of our land or to deny women the knowledge of their rights and their freedom—genuine freedom—to access those rights. At present, we are looking the other way while many women are suffering in our country. That is documented by Muslim women, not by headlines I have read. We have responsibility in our country to protect and promote fundamental freedoms and gender equality. At the moment, we are seriously failing to do so.
Baroness Warsi
Perhaps I may come back on one issue that the noble Baroness raised. Does she accept that if we simply recognised a Muslim marriage—a nikah—as a legal marriage, it would deal with all the issues that she has raised today?
Baroness Cox
I thank the noble Baroness because that is just the point that I was making. It is more than the point I was making, because I have been told that that has not been deemed acceptable at the moment. We have raised it in many discussions and I would strongly support the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, if that could be accepted. The related point that I raised in my speech is that if any religious marriage—I am not talking only about Islamic marriages—does not bring in at the same time a legally registered marriage, the woman ought at least to know the implications of not having a legally registered marriage. At the moment, they do not even know. They are often told by their families that it is a legally registered marriage or think that if it is carried out in the UK, it will bring a legally registered marriage. At the moment, they are in a state of ignorance. The amendment that I moved would go one step towards remedying that situation so that they would at least know. They would not necessarily have freedom of choice because of the pressures put on them by families and local communities, but it would be one step. If the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, were to become an amendment I would support it wholeheartedly.