Railways (Safety, Access, Management and Interoperability) (Miscellaneous Amendments and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 30th October 2019 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I will start by explaining why we are considering this instrument under the urgent “made affirmative” procedure provided for in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.

This instrument is important for ensuring clarity and certainty for the rail industry and passengers. It fixes deficiencies in a number of pieces of rail-related legislation, including important changes to the rail safety legislative framework and corrections to minor issues in previous Brexit-related instruments raised by the JCSI.

The Government committed in previous debates on rail Brexit legislation in this House and to the JCSI that the rail safety amendments and the issues identified by the JCSI would be fixed in time for the UK’s exit from the EU. We gave very careful consideration to the appropriate procedure for this instrument. Providing certainty and clarity to industry and passengers is an absolute priority.

We concluded that in order to provide the right level of certainty and fulfil commitments made to this House and to industry, this instrument needed to be in place for exit day. Therefore, this instrument was signed and laid on 7 October using the urgent “made affirmative” procedure. Noble Lords will be aware that the Article 50 extension letter was not sent until 19 October, and the extension was agreed only on 28 October.

Turning to what this instrument does, its most significant provision is to introduce in Great Britain a two-year recognition period for Part A safety certificates issued in the EU before exit day by amending the Rail Safety (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. It will also make corrections to EU implementing legislation that has come into effect since 12 April 2019, as well as some further minor corrections to earlier implementing legislation.

I will now provide some background information on the changes being made by this instrument, including Part A safety certificates. Part A safety certificates are valid for up to five years and are an essential piece of documentation for operators seeking to operate trains in Great Britain. They are issued by the ORR and set out the essential safety arrangements and systems a train operator has in place to run trains competently and safely.

This instrument will introduce a two-year recognition period for existing Part A safety certificates issued in the EU as part of establishing full regulatory control of our rail safety regime. This gives certainty that EU-issued Part A safety certificates will continue to be recognised for the purpose of operating trains on the mainline railway in Great Britain for two years after Brexit or until they expire, whichever is the sooner. A train operator will then need to apply to the ORR for a new Part A safety certificate and accompanying Part B safety certificate. Two years provide an appropriate amount of time in which industry can prepare and align itself with the GB domestic certification regime and are consistent with recognition periods introduced in other rail-related Brexit legislation. This SI also enables GB-appropriate control, which we will use to maintain our excellent safety record. Safety is always the number one priority on the railway.

Only one operator has been identified as providing services in Great Britain using a Part A safety certificate issued in another EU member state. The operator is RTS Rail Transport Service GmbH. Officials from my department and the ORR have actively engaged with the operator concerned to ensure that it is prepared for Brexit, and its application for a new Part A certificate is well advanced.

Turning to the amendments correcting issues in previous Brexit-related instrument, I reassure noble Lords that the instrument we are considering today has been through pre-legislative scrutiny by the JCSI which returned it without comment. It was also considered by the JCSI in its meeting of 16 October and was not identified as an instrument to be brought to the attention of the House. The JCSI identified minor drafting issues in two previous rail Brexit instruments. I am sure noble Lords will remember that I detailed at least two of those drafting issues in a previous debate, but just in case I will do so again briefly.

In specific terms, the JCSI identified three missing words in the Railways (Safety Management) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2019. They were a definition relating to the Northern Ireland Department for Infrastructure’s monitoring of safety targets, namely the term “risk to whole”. The committee identified that the term,

“risk to society as a whole”,

appears in paragraph 12(3)(f) of Schedule 7, and that this term should have been defined in paragraph 2 in place of “risk to whole”. The committee also considered that the words,

“risk to society as a whole”,

should have been set out in full rather than the label “whole society” in the table at the end of the schedule.

In addition, the JCSI identified minor drafting errors in the Railways (Access, Management and Licensing of Railway Undertakings) (Amendments etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. Specifically, they were a duplication of a sub-paragraph and an incorrect cross-reference to other legislation. Those errors are corrected in this instrument, and the Government would like to thank the JCSI for pointing them out.

My department has also identified small analogous errors in two other Brexit instruments, the Rail Safety (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 and the Railways (Interoperability) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. These errors are also corrected in this instrument.

This instrument will also make the usual Brexit-related corrections to EU implementing legislation that has come fully into effect since 12 April 2019. These include corrections such as removing references to “member states” and replacing references to European legislation with references to domestic legislation wherever possible. The instrument also makes some further minor corrections to earlier implementing legislation.

It is important to emphasise that officials have worked closely with the industry throughout the preparation of this instrument and it will welcome the clarity and certainty that it will provide. The provisions contained in this instrument will enable the rail legislative framework to continue to operate effectively after exit day. This instrument provides certainty to the railway industry and passengers and will ensure that the rail legislative framework continues to function effectively after the UK leaves the EU. I commend these regulations to the Committee. I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and her officials for talking us through these regulations at a meeting yesterday. I am very grateful for her time. Despite her enthusiasm, I had to supress a weary sense of déjà vu about this, but then I thought of an upside. When the history of this Parliament is written, this SI will go down as one of the significant pieces of legislation passed during this Session which, after all, has lasted only a couple of weeks, so it will have its place in history and therefore I set my mind to looking at it with rather more attention and diligence. But my whole spirit protests at the amount of time that we, and particularly officials, have spent preparing for a no-deal Brexit—an issue which is so damaging that it should never have been a credible option.

This SI fixes deficiencies in previous drafting, as the Minister has noted. I believe that there are four of them; that is quite a lot for such a short piece of legislation. My concern is that officials have been under such pressure to churn out such no-deal legislation, if I can call it that, that it has been very difficult for them to maintain the usual high standards. I had a quiet laugh at the opening line of paragraph 2 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which tells us:

“The Government is committed to leaving the European Union on 31 October”.


I will come back to this later on.

The core purpose of this SI is to put in place a system of recognition of Part A safety certificates for rail operators. It introduces a two-year recognition period, which is flexible according to the renewal date. As the Minister has pointed out to us, this affects only one company but it is symptomatic of the ridiculous position that we are in. Part A certificates are currently EU-portable; the company concerned therefore only has to get them once, and they apply in all EU countries where that company operates. It is proposed that, in future, the ORR will issue Part A certificates. As a result, as the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report observes:

“ORR issued Part A safety certificates will be substantially the same in terms of content compared to EU issued Part A safety certificates, including the requirements necessary to obtain one. However, after the UK leaves the EU ORR issued Part A certificates will not have EU identification numbers, EU symbols or references to the EU. ORR issued Part A safety certificates will not be valid in the EU”.


This is about creating something which is identical in intent but has a different badge. It creates more complexity and bureaucracy; it is very far from the rosy image we were sold in 2016. The effect is of course that the company concerned, and any other company which might come along and need this certificate, will have to get two certificates rather than only one. What is more, since it is a criminal offence to operate a railway without a Part A certificate, the criminal offence has to be adjusted too. What will happen to the mountain of paperwork and complexity that we have created when, or if, we decide not to leave the EU after all? Are we going to have to unwind it painfully, SI by SI, or could we have just one mega-piece of legislation saying: “Forget what we have done for the last year”?

Electric Scooters

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 29th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord is quite right. As I mentioned, it is illegal to ride e-scooters on any land that is not private. The police can enforce the matter, they can issue fines and can sometimes confiscate the scooter.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I have hired electric scooters in countries where it is legal to do so. Dockless bike hire schemes in this country cause similar problems with disposal and parking at the end of the hire period. They are left lying around and cause an obstruction. Do the Government accept that at least part of the answer lies in giving local authorities more power to regulate and manage bike and scooter hire schemes?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I cannot guarantee to the noble Baroness exactly where we will end up in the relationship between local authorities and hire scheme providers, but she is quite right to say that different countries and different cities have taken different approaches. For example, in Barcelona, there are only hire shops—you cannot just pick up one of these things from the streets—but in Paris, for example, they are currently legislating to treat e-scooters much like e-bikes. Different countries are doing different things. I want to ensure that we do the right thing for London and other big cities where, no doubt, such schemes would take off.

Transport: Buses

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Thursday 24th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to encourage more people to travel by bus.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are boosting bus services, harnessing bus data and tackling congestion. To boost services, the new bus deal includes an additional £30 million on top of the £43 million already paid to local authorities. To harness data, the bus open data digital service will collate real-time location and fare data. On congestion, we will update guidance to local authorities on bus priority measures.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, despite some one-off initiatives, which of course one welcomes, we continue to face a bus emergency. For instance, 65% of local authorities no longer provide free transport for 16 to 18 year-olds, and many bus services have been cut. Does the Minister agree that we need a national bus strategy to promote increased usage, zero-emission buses and more integrated services? Do the Government intend to reform and significantly increase funding for bus services to address the £650 million funding gap faced by local authorities and operators over concessionary fares?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am pleased to be able to agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. It is critical that we have a national bus strategy. The Government have already announced that we will put in place such a strategy. Going alongside that will be our commitment to long-term funding for the bus sector.

Air Services (Competition) (Amendment and Revocation) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Monday 7th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are working to secure a new deal with the EU. However, if we have to leave with no deal, the Government are committed to preparing for this outcome.

With regards to commercial aviation, we have already conducted intensive work to ensure that there is a functioning legislative framework and an effective regulatory regime for this critical part of the UK economy. This new instrument will ensure that the legislative framework and regulatory regime for this sector remain robust. The Government have given very careful consideration to the appropriate procedure for progressing this instrument. For the reasons I will shortly outline, it is important to have this instrument in place by exit day. That is why we have selected the “made affirmative” procedure which, while allowing for parliamentary scrutiny, should ensure that outcome. These draft regulations will be made under the powers conferred by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, and amend EU regulation 2019/712, which sets out an approach to safeguarding competition in air transport.

Fundamentally, this instrument ensures that, w responding to anti-competitive practices, the UK will have the same powers to protect UK airlines as will be available to the EU to protect EU airlines. Previously, regulation 868/2004 provided for redressive measures to be imposed when subsidisation and unfair pricing practices by third-country airlines caused injury to EU airlines. The previous SI on this subject introduced corrections to that regulation to ensure it would apply when the UK left the EU. However, since the extension to the UK’s departure from the EU, regulation 868/2004 was repealed and replaced with regulation 2019/712. The reasons given were that the previous regulation was judged to be ineffective in respect of its underlying general aim of fair competition. For instance, there was a lack of definition around the initiation and conduct of investigations or the criteria for doing so.

The new EU regulation provides the European Commission with the power to conduct an investigation where there is prima facie evidence of anti-competitive practices causing or threating to cause injury to EU air carriers. Areas where discrimination could occur include the allocation of slots, administrative procedures and the arrangement for selling and distribution of air services. If such evidence is found, redressive measures can be taken to offset any injury. Such redressive measures include financial duties.

The withdrawal Act will retain regulation 2019/712 in UK law in its entirety on exit day. The draft instrument being considered today makes the changes necessary so that this EU regulation continues to function correctly after exit day. The policy content of the retained regulation will remain substantially unchanged. The changes that have been made are primarily technical and necessary to ensure the correct application of these measures after the UK leaves the EU.

As part of these changes, the UK Civil Aviation Authority will assume some of the responsibilities previously placed on the European Commission. For instance, the UK Civil Aviation Authority will examine and investigate any complaint of this nature. The UK CAA will report on these findings to the Department for Transport, where the Secretary of State will take a decision whether to adopt any redressive measures. Such measures will be adopted by statutory instrument, using the affirmative procedure.

In the event of no deal, the EU could apply its regulation to the UK or its airlines if they were engaged in the practices described in the regulation. Therefore, the changes being made by this SI also ensure that EU member states and their airlines will be subject to the UK’s measures. This preserves a level playing field from exit day and is why we have selected the “made affirmative” procedure, which ensures this important measure is in place on 1 November, if required. While we would prefer to leave with a deal, this instrument will ensure that, in any scenario, the UK and UK airlines will have equivalent access to the type of measures EU member states and EU airlines can take against anti-competitive actions. I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her introduction. I am sure she will be delighted to hear that I have only one substantive question. However, I want to comment in passing that this statutory instrument applies a rule to ensure a level playing field, as the Minister said. It ensures that the CAA will examine complaints in future, rather than the European Commission. The CAA comes in at every possible turn, and I question whether it has the expertise and the resources needed for this. It is used by the Government for a wide variety of activities—everything from repatriating air passengers to space travel—and is therefore extremely broadly stretched. My concern is always that it should be given the resources it needs for this.

The Explanatory Memorandum says that, while the CAA will investigate in future if there is no deal,

“it is possible that the Department for Transport will play a supporting role”.

Exactly what supporting role do the Government envisage the Department for Transport playing? It strikes me that this is an unsatisfactory blurring of the edges. The proposal that the CAA does this follows a well-established principle: you have an independent or arm’s- length body that investigates a situation, makes a recommendation to the Minister and the Minister makes the decision. However, if the Government now envisage some kind of blurring of the situation, with the Department for Transport involved in a supportive role with the CAA and the Secretary of State making the final decision, you have a mixing of roles in a way that is not normal and which could lead to discussion, argument and even court action if a company is accused of anti-competitive practices. Could we have a little more detail on that from the Minister? That is my significant concern on this.

Draft Heavy Commercial Vehicles in Kent (No. 1) Order 2019

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Monday 7th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the draft Heavy Commercial Vehicles in Kent (No. 1) Order 2019 and the Heavy Commercial Vehicles in Kent (No. 2) Order 2019, along with the Heavy Commercial Vehicles in Kent (No. 3) Order 2019, which requires the negative procedure, are a package of measures and it is important that they should be debated together. I am grateful to the House for facilitating this.

As noble Lords will be aware, the Government have been supporting partners in Kent to develop Operation Brock. Brock is a co-ordinated multi-agency response to cross-Channel travel disruption, specifically when capacity for heavy goods vehicles to leave the UK through the Port of Dover or the Channel Tunnel is significantly restricted. We are prepared to use Brock should cross-Channel disruption occur because of the UK’s departure from the EU in a no-deal Brexit, although it could, of course, also be deployed as a result of disruption resulting from bad weather or industrial action. These orders are a vital part of Operation Brock, as they will significantly expand and strengthen the enforcement regime that underpins it.

Operation Brock replaces Operation Stack, and the difference is that it has been specifically designed to keep the M20 motorway in Kent open in both directions, with access to junctions, even in periods of severe and protracted disruption. Operation Brock consists of three phases, the first being a contraflow queuing system on the M20, between junctions 8 near Maidstone and junction 9 near Ashford. The contraflow system enables all other traffic to travel in both directions of the M20 on the London-bound carriageway when cross-Channel heavy goods vehicles are stored on the coast-bound carriageway. When the M20 queuing system—the first phase—is reaching capacity, cross-Channel heavy goods vehicles bound for the Port of Dover would be diverted to Manston Airport. That is the second phase. The third and final phase is the use of the M26. If needed, the M26 can be used as a last resort to store trucks heading to Europe via the Channel Tunnel.

It is important to note that the Kent Resilience Forum, which comprises bodies such as the county council and the police force, is responsible for the Operation Brock plans. Any decisions relating to the activation and timing of the different phases of Operation Brock will be taken by Kent Police as the Gold Command, in consultation with the Kent Resilience Forum.

We are undertaking an extensive communications programme to inform traders and hauliers of new requirements resulting from our departure from the EU. We recognise that if there is widespread non-compliance, it could lead to serious congestion on Kent’s roads. In the summer of 2015, when Operation Stack was deployed for an extended period of time, compliance with the traffic management system was low. Almost a third of cross-Channel heavy goods vehicles avoided the system, causing serious traffic problems on the local road network, with parts of Kent becoming gridlocked. Over the past year, the department has held regular discussions with the Kent Resilience Forum and other stakeholders in Kent. They have been keen to see gaps in the legislative framework addressed and measures to strengthen the enforcement of Brock.

A final consultation on the package of measures was undertaken this summer. This was targeted to affected stakeholders in Kent, such as Kent County Council, the Port of Dover and Eurotunnel, and freight and road haulage associations. As mentioned in the Explanatory Memoranda, the responses received were broadly supportive and provided helpful points of detail that assisted us in drafting the orders, such as refining when the new restrictions and powers should be used, as well as raising wider points on the deployment of Operation Brock, such as on the provision of welfare for truck drivers. I would like to thank everyone who responded.

It is crucial that these instruments are brought into force by 31 October to ensure that the scheme operates as efficiently as possible and to reduce the impact on businesses and local communities in Kent. I am grateful that time has been found for these debates to take place so quickly and for the speed with which the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Secondary Legislation Select Committee have scrutinised these instruments.

I will now set out what the two orders we are considering today, as well as the associated third order, provide. Under order No. 1, traffic officers in Kent will be able to require the production of documents to establish a vehicle’s destination and readiness to cross the border. If the driver can produce the appropriate documents, they will be given a permit for onward travel. In addition, the order provides powers to direct drivers to proceed to a motorway, removing the vehicle from the local road network, and powers to direct drivers not to proceed to the Channel Tunnel or the Port of Dover except via a specified road or route. Document checks to help make sure that a haulier has the right documents will be carried out on the M20 by temporary traffic officers contracted by, and under the direct supervision of, Highways England, while broader traffic management and enforcement will be dealt with by permanent staff and the police.

This order also sets the amount of the financial penalty deposit for offences relating to Operation Brock, so it may be helpful if I briefly explain the roadside enforcement regime. A driver with a UK address who commits a road traffic offence can be issued with a fixed penalty notice, which must normally be paid within 28 days or it can be enforced by a local magistrates’ court. If a driver does not have a UK address and therefore could avoid that follow-up enforcement action, the police or the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency—DVSA—can require the immediate payment of a financial penalty deposit. If a driver cannot pay the deposit, their vehicle is immobilised. This regime is used for many road traffic offences and ensures that penalties are paid. The amount of the deposit introduced by the other two instruments for breaching the traffic restrictions or for failing to comply with a traffic officer exercising the new powers is set at £300. The fixed penalty notice amount is also set at £300 by the No. 3 order, to which I will return later.

Order No. 2 prohibits cross-Channel heavy goods vehicles using local roads in Kent other than those on the approved Operation Brock routes. To facilitate traffic flow, the legislation also requires cross-Channel heavy goods vehicles to remain in the nearside—left-hand—lane when using those parts of the Brock routes that are dual carriageway local roads. Appropriate exceptions to this prohibition have been provided after consultation with the Kent Resilience Forum and freight associations. For example, a vehicle on a cross-Channel journey can make a local collection or delivery provided the driver can provide information sufficient to satisfy a constable or traffic officer that the vehicle is being driven on a particular road for that purpose alone.

To complete the whole picture, order No. 3, which has been laid using the negative procedure, prohibits cross-Channel heavy goods vehicles accessing the coast-bound carriageway of the M20 between junctions 9 and 13 unless the driver is displaying a permit. As I said, this permit will be issued in the Brock queue between junctions 8 and 9, enabling a driver to demonstrate that they have followed the approved Brock route and have complied with any border document checks that may be undertaken in the queue. This order also prohibits cross-Channel heavy goods vehicles joining the M20 contraflow between junctions 8 and 9 of the London-bound carriageway. It also sets the amount of the fixed penalty for offences relating to this series of instruments.

We have provided that the new powers and traffic restrictions in the orders will cease to have effect at the end of December 2020. This date coincides with the end of planning permission for the holding of heavy goods vehicles at Manston Airport. Manston is of course an integral part of the Brock system, so this is a suitable and consistent date for them to cease to have effect.

Crucially, these instruments introduce powers to require the production of border documents and the obligation for drivers to comply with any readiness check before using the roads leading to the ports. If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the UK will become a third country, and the customs authorities in EU member states will introduce EU border and customs rules. For goods to move smoothly across the border, traders will therefore need to complete new processes for customs and provide documentation to their hauliers, who will need it when carrying goods. If drivers try to take goods across to the EU without the right documentation, it is possible that they will not be able to complete their journey. That may be because the UK port turns them away because they do not have the required documentation; for example, some of the customs documentation must be scanned at Eurotunnel before the vehicle can board the train. Or they may be blocked from progressing through an EU port by a member state customs authority; vehicles could be delayed and fined or returned to the UK, or goods could be destroyed. Both scenarios could lead to congestion at UK and EU ports. This could be particularly severe at the Channel ports of Dover and Calais, given the volume of traffic that they handle and the existence of French passport controls on the UK side of the Channel at these ports, and could lead to significant delays on Kent’s road network.

We propose conducting border readiness checks in the Brock queues. In practice, this means that: if Brock M20 is active, HGVs heading to Dover and Eurotunnel will undergo checks on the M20 between junctions 8 and 9; if Brock Manston is active, because congestion at the ports has worsened, Dover-bound heavy goods vehicles will be queued at Manston Airport, where checks will take place, and Eurotunnel-bound heavy goods vehicles will continue to queue on the M20 and be checked there. A haulier who is deemed to be ready to cross the border will be given a permit that allows them to go to the port. Hauliers who try to go to the port without a permit could be stopped, directed to the back of the relevant Brock queue and receive the proposed on-the-spot £300 fine by the police or the DVSA.

These orders are of vital importance to allow sensible traffic management in Kent. It is critical that we demonstrate to the public and to business that Operation Brock will be ready, fully operational and enforceable on day one should it be needed to deal with the impact of cross-Channel disruption. I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that there has been local consultation on this. However, my word—this conjures up a depressing and distressing picture of the world we might be entering into, and the people of Kent need to be seriously worried about the way in which this will impinge on their lives.

It is worth noting at this point that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee drew these orders to our attention, noting that it believed that the use of Section 8 powers of the Traffic Management Act 2004 was a “significant” issue that the House should be aware of.

The Minister referred to the fact that the third order was not before us. I hope she will forgive me but I could not hear her explanation of why we do not have it. However, I want to hear clearly from her that the third order is being made at the same time. Could she also please address the fact that, as part of this whole package of activity, there are three special development orders which apply to Manston Airport, Waterbrook in Ashford, and car park D at Ebbsfleet station? They all allow the use of land for the stationing of vehicles, for facilities for drivers and for the pre-processing of papers required in order to export goods if there is no deal. As they are an intrinsic part of the package—although I realise that they will not be part of the Minister’s responsibilities—I think it is important that we know how that will all fit together and when all the information will have come to us that needs to.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to a very thorough debate today. A number of issues have been raised. I will do my absolute utmost to cover as many issues as I possibly can, but of course I will write, as I am already fairly sure that there are certain issues I cannot cover in great detail.

I start with the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. She started by painting a rather grim picture that this is some sort of a takeover of Kent by the Government. It certainly is not. She mentioned that there has been local consultation, but the request for these powers very much came from the local resilience forum.

[Baroness Randerson]

I specifically welcomed the fact that there had been local consultation. I am afraid the Minister misheard me.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am sorry if I phrased that incorrectly. I know that the noble Baroness welcomed the local consultation. The point I was trying to make is that this was more than the Government just going to Kent and saying, “What do you think of this?”. This was more about Kent saying, “Actually, given what happened with Operation Stack, we’d really like these powers, and if the Government could sort it for us, that would be great”. So that is what the Government are trying to do today. As has been mentioned by a number of noble Lords, these powers are available in the event that there is congestion at the border caused by a no-deal Brexit, but they can also be used for bad weather and/or industrial action.

The noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, noted the use of Operation Stack in 2015. I, too, was unfortunate enough to drive through Kent at the time, and it was a nightmare. It caused great trouble, so we are well aware of the issues that can happen, and they do not have to be Brexit-related. Having said that, however, these powers are limited to 31 December 2020. That is right, in that we would not want to extend powers then leave them hanging for a long period of time if they are not needed in future. Certainly, should we or a Government in the future decide that they are useful and benefit the people of Kent, I would expect similar legislation to be passed again in future, once these powers have fallen away on 31 December 2020.

As I have mentioned, these powers are very much for the benefit of businesses, residents and people who—like me—travel through Kent. They are being made under a variety of different Acts, which is why—I am sure noble Lords understand—one is draft affirmative, one is made affirmative and one is negative. They stem from different parts of our legislative scope and the different things we have available to us. They are a series of instruments and will not come into effect without Parliament’s approval, so the negative does not come into effect on its own.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned the SDOs and referred to three different sites. The SDOs are in place for Manston, which has been in place since January 2019; Ebbsfleet, which has been in place since September 2019 and will be used as an HMRC transit site; and Ashford, which has been in place since September 2019 and is an HMRC transit site and turnback site so that HGVs that arrival at Eurotunnel and are found to be not compliant will have somewhere they can go that will have facilities for them to try to get themselves compliant, so that they can be border-ready and can head across to the border.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned empty lorries. These will be treated the same as other lorries. I will be honest with noble Lords: we looked at whether we could treat empty lorries separately, but there are various issues around, for example, packaging. Some packaging, although it is empty, must have the relevant certification with it because obviously there is no way of making sure that that packaging is empty. Therefore things such as beer kegs need some customs documentation. An empty lorry that does not carry beer kegs will not need it.

This brings us on to the general discussion about the documentation needed, who is checking it and how qualified these people are. There are levels—layers—to this entire system. The traffic officers, whether they be temporary or permanent, will look for the existence of certain documents. This is not a shadow French or EU customs operation; they are looking for the existence of the documents. If those documents exist, they assume that that HGV is compliant; it will get a permit and continue. They do not have to be experts. However, I take the point: training is under way and is being done in order that the traffic officers, whether permanent or temporary, recognise the documents that we will require when they get to the border.

The classes of documents we are looking for are fairly straightforward: for travel documents, it is a passport or ID card, and for customs, it is the movement reference number from two different types of document. Only in the case of phytosanitary certificates, export health certificates or export licences for chemicals and drugs will we look for additional documents. The training is under way and will continue. To do the checks, the traffic officers will have screens. It is done online. The software is translated into 11 different languages so that if the traffic officer speaks to somebody who does not speak English but perhaps speaks one of the languages in front of them, we can make sure that the person has the documents and can be on their way with a permit as quickly as possible. To help noble Lords’ understanding, the traffic officers are doing the checks; they are also responsible for traffic movements. We are looking to the police for enforcement, not checks, and to the DVSA, which has similar powers.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, went on to talk about the contraflow. We are very seized of the issue that the contraflow brings to the M20. We completely understand that it is not a permanent solution. I can give the noble Baroness some hope. I have seen some proposals for what the permanent solution may be. We are getting to the bottom of them, and I very much hope that in the not too distant future we will be able to share with noble Lords what the permanent solution will be. I do not believe it will be as terrifying—as the noble Baroness mentioned—as driving down that stretch of the M20 can be at this moment in time.

Turning to the local lorries, I suppose there are two issues here. First, there are lorries that need to do a delivery or pick-up within Kent before they proceed to the border. I would expect them to have all the appropriate documents because they are heading to the border. In all this there is an overarching assessment of reasonableness. They should have the right sort of documents. We spoke to the Kent Resilience Forum about the other local lorries, and the police are well aware of the rat-runs that HGVs trying to get to the border might use. They know where people are going. They will not be covering every single road in Kent. Most of the local traders in Kent will be able to get from A to B with no trouble. Many noble Lords have recognised that a lot of these hauliers—well over 80% —will be operating businesses based out of the EU. I suggest to noble Lords that the number plate might be a bit of a giveaway anyway, but of course it is clearly not 100% fool-proof.

I turn to the impact assessment or lack thereof. A de minimis assessment was undertaken with these SIs about the actual or potential imposition of this contingency plan. We followed the approach agreed with Defra advice. The more general issue of potential disruption in Kent in the event of no deal has been assessed by the Kent Resilience Forum with input from the border delivery group and DfT.

I turn to points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. I have what I hope are some helpful numbers that will put his mind at rest about the additional staff. If operational, it is true that this will need a significant number, but remember that these powers are only needed if Operation Brock is in. We are probably looking at 125 temporary traffic officers. They will do the traffic checks on the M20 and will be on three-month contracts extendable by three months. We will be looking at about 130 DVSA enforcement staff, 60 of whom will come from outside Kent. There will 120 Highways England traffic officers. There will be 350 police officers, 160 of whom will come from outside Kent, given the very well understood structures that exist for when police forces need to help one another. Any deployment from outside the Kent area will be time limited. Appropriate arrangements will be put in place to ensure that roles are covered as people move to different responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Viscount raises an important point, but those people are already recruited. Although it sounds like a huge and responsible role, the temporary traffic officers will have a very specific role—which is for the M20, to do the border-readiness checks. They are recruited and are undergoing training.

[Baroness Randerson]

I would like to press the Minister for a little more information about what information is currently on the GOV.UK website to help hauliers. The Minister referred to warnings about getting ready for a no-deal Brexit. That brought to mind those irritating adverts on the television that tell you absolutely nothing; they tell you to get ready for a no-deal Brexit but do not say what you should be doing. We need much more precision in this case. Is that information on GOV.UK already, so that hauliers and their employers can look at it?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Baroness for reminding me to go back to this. I know that I am not supposed to have extra documents in the Chamber, but I have one here. There is a document, which has been available for quite some time, and there is also a shortened version. This document, Transporting Goods Between the UK and EU in a No-deal Brexit: Guidance for Hauliers, is available on pop-up stands as well as on GOV.UK. On the basis of my answers to these questions, and that I will write, I hope noble Lords will see fit to approve these regulations.

HS2: Cost

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 24th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, HS2 has benefits of £92 billion overall; it would be a mistake to scrap it. Also, if that money were suddenly to become available, it would not necessarily be immediately transferrable to the north. My noble friend may be referring to northern powerhouse rail, which is a very important railway project, but it is not an either/or situation. We can have HS2 and we can have northern powerhouse rail; indeed, for both of them to work, they both need to be built.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister is very firm in her assurances, and I would like to think that we can be convinced that HS2 will be built. However, the new Prime Minister has cast serious doubt on it and the Minister has referred to HS2 being subject to review. I therefore ask her to explain why £9 million has been given as compensation to Heathrow Airport in preparation for HS2, despite this ongoing review. Can she confirm the press reports that the £9 million will be paid even if HS2 does not go ahead?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Work continues on HS2 and that £9 million was part of that work. To date, HS2 has spent £7.4 billion. The review I referred to was done by the current chairman of HS2; it may be that there is a separate, second external review. I welcome the new Prime Minister’s reported focus on infrastructure. Infrastructure is critically important to our country and very complex, and sometimes it represents a large and slow-moving target for criticism. It is essential that we get infrastructure right and that it is fit for purpose.

Egypt: Suspension of Flights

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Monday 22nd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the decision by British Airways to suspend flights to Cairo for seven days is an operational matter for the airline concerned. The airline has stated that this is a precautionary measure. The Government take security very seriously and remain in close contact with all UK airlines in relation to security matters that could affect their operations.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, there is undoubtedly some confusion about the situation, not least among the responses of airlines. BA and Lufthansa suspended all flights to Cairo on Saturday—although Lufthansa resumed flights on Sunday—whereas Air France and EgyptAir flights have continued normally. Meanwhile the Egyptian aviation Minister has expressed to the British ambassador his dismay at BA’s response, and the Foreign Office advice still does not warn against air travel to Cairo, although it continues to warn against travel to Sharm el-Sheikh. I realise that the Minister cannot discuss in this Chamber the details of security issues, but could she clarify exactly what the Foreign Office advice is about flights to Cairo? She will appreciate that it is holiday season and many people are anxious about this. Why is only BA responding in this way?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

This is an operational matter for BA. It has taken the measures it has as a precaution, and it is up to it to decide how it operates. I am happy to confirm to the noble Baroness the travel advice currently on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website, which has not substantively changed. While it does not advise against travel to or from Cairo Airport, it reminds visitors that:

“Terrorists in Egypt likely maintain the intent and capability to target aviation. The greatest threat is on the Sinai Peninsula where Daesh operate with greater freedom, but terrorists are active in Mainland Egypt, including Cairo”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am sure the noble Lord will understand that I cannot go into much further detail about the security information, where it might have come from and who might have had it, whether that is airlines or nation states. Suffice it to say that we maintain a good and open relationship with all UK airlines and they are able to make their own operational decisions.

[Baroness Randerson]

Will the Minister clarify whether the Government are warning people of danger in flying to Cairo or not? The information she read out from the Foreign Office website appears to be a middle way, which is what caused me to ask the Question in the first place. There is a lack of clarity. I am not questioning the Government’s decision, but it is their role to provide clarity and certainty, if necessary on a strongly precautionary basis on issues of this kind.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

In 2018, 415,000 people visited Egypt and the vast majority of those visits were absolutely trouble-free. The Government keep all travel advice on their website up to date and as I mentioned, the advice has not substantively changed. It is the Government’s duty to provide advice to their citizens, so that they can make the decision for themselves.

Railways: South-eastern Franchise

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Thursday 4th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for his observations. As he well knows, this process is ongoing, so any increases are not yet confirmed. But my department expects the independent regulator, the Office of Rail and Road, to provide a robust and rigorous challenge to HS1’s proposals, as part of the review process. I am aware that this process has been going on for 18 months and is continuing.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, Eurostar operates in a multimodal travel market that includes airlines, and HS1 is already the most expensive railway in Europe by a big margin. If the Government are serious about reaching zero carbon by 2050, this is just the kind of cost that needs to be kept firmly under control. It is not acceptable for the Government to hide behind the regulator. Can the Minister give me an assurance that the Government will make it clear to the regulator that costs like this must be well controlled?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I assure the noble Baroness that the Government are making it clear to the regulator that we expect a robust and rigorous challenge. It is of course independent, but we recognise the importance of Eurostar, both for environmental reasons and for providing extra capacity on a different mode of transport. We support high-speed passenger services to Europe.

Bus Services

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 4th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to encourage more people to use bus services.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, using buses can lead to less congestion, greater productivity and more connected communities. We are pioneering technology such as the bus open data digital service which will give passengers the information they need to catch a bus with confidence. The Bus Services Act 2017 also enables enhanced partnerships for buses. This means that local authorities and the bus operators in their area can work together to improve services.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, local authority funding cuts mean that they can no longer afford to subsidise many services, so we need to encourage more people to use the buses to make them commercially viable. Does the Minister agree that since young people now have to stay in school, education or training until the age of 18, it is grossly unfair to expect them to pay full fare as they have to in many areas from the age of 16? Does she agree that a nationwide scheme of concessionary fares up to and, hopefully, beyond the age of 18 would help to encourage young people to use the buses?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I have some good news for the noble Baroness. More than 50% of people use the bus twice or more a year but young people aged 17 to 20 use buses at a much higher rate—nearly 70%. I also point out that 71 of 89 travel concession areas already offer discounted fares to young people through the operators. Other discounts are available from local authorities and, of course, it is up to them to offer discounts in their areas.

Transport Act 1985 (Amendment) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Monday 20th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for asking that question. I will certainly have to write, as I do not have those numbers in front of me, but he makes an important and valid point and I will write to him.

There are three exemptions in EU law which can be used. The Section 19 and Section 22 permits guidance explain how two of them can be applied to the community transport sector. The first is the “main occupation exemption”. The guidance that we published explains how this exemption can be used by organisations whose primary activity is not transport; for example, schools, community groups or local authorities. We believe that this represents around half of the community transport organisations, which will fall into this group.

The second exemption is the short-distance exemption. This allows organisations which have a minor impact on the transport market, due to the short distances they travel, to be exempt. In defining 10 miles as a short distance, as noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, the Government believed that it was important to consider how these bus services work across the country. What is a short distance in a rural area may be a very long way in a big city, and rural areas are of specific concern when it comes to community transport. Where community transport operators provide bus services in rural areas, they have the flexibility to make the case that a short distance is longer than the automatic 10-mile distance. The noble Baroness noted some discrepancies in the application of the guidance. I would be grateful if she could share the specific pieces of evidence with me, then we will be able to review them and perhaps get to the bottom of what is going on.

Finally, the third exemption relates to the services which are non-commercial. The Government are not able to provide guidance on this exemption, as there is an ongoing judicial review in respect of it. However, as noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, the Government are clear that it would be premature for any local authority to end or withhold community transport contracts while this legal action is ongoing. The High Court has not yet given us a date for the hearing but we hope that it will be soon. Once the High Court has reached a decision, the Government will revise their guidance to give effect to it.

[Baroness Randerson]

Will the Minister extend that very welcome assurance and say that the Government will promptly contact the offices of the traffic commissioners to ensure they understand that that is the Government’s intention, and that they are not applying different rules?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Without having seen the evidence, I obviously cannot make that commitment right now but I should imagine that if we can give any further guidance, we will certainly do so.

The Transport Select Committee acknowledged that this uncertainty has already impacted some community transport operators—there has been lots of concern about it in Parliament. There are real costs from uncertainty and implications from doing nothing at all, so the Government are able to provide clarity on two of the three exemptions. Where community transport operators can use either the main or the short-distance exemption, they do not need to wait for a High Court judgment. They can plan for the future and deliver important transport services with confidence.

We recognise that in certain circumstances, according to the impact assessment, there will be an impact on some operators. We believe that 50% of the operators will fall under the main occupation exemption, but there is the extent to which the remaining 50% will be able to take advantage of the new short-distance exemption. We hope that many of them will really consider that option, and that we will therefore be able to reduce the number of operators impacted.

International Road Passenger Transport (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Monday 20th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in our short debate today. It is an important debate, however, and is vital for the 900,000 journeys made across the Northern Irish border. A number of issues were raised. I will start by discussing how we ended up with this slightly odd mismatched date situation, with the September and December dates, and then I will cover the Interbus agreement, cabotage and what this means for new services in Northern Ireland.

The arrangements for both regular services and cabotage by Northern Irish operators were set by the EU in its contingency regulation on basic road transport connectivity—I think we are clear on that. However, much of the content of the regulation was put in place in Article 50 format, which means that the UK was not in the room at the time this was agreed. We worked hard with our Irish colleagues to raise the importance of access, including cabotage, on the island of Ireland. The date for regular services—the one at the end of September—was set to allow sufficient time for the protocol to the Interbus agreement on regular services to enter into force. The date for the cabotage services was set at the end of September—noble Lords will recall that, at that point, exit day was going to be in March—to enable alternatives to be put in place for cabotage. Now that the date of exit has been pushed back to October, obviously we will work hard with the Commission and member states to make sure that the dates are extended if they need to be.

We need to extend the Interbus agreement to regular services. The EU is one of the four parties that needs to sign the agreement to extend the coverage, and the Commission is the secretariat to the Interbus agreement. In our conversations with the Commission, and specifically with DG MOVE, it has indicated to us that it will be extended. We will continue to work carefully with the Commission and member states to encourage them to sign; I feel that the process that is likely to happen is that the EU will sign and then others will follow. We therefore have confidence that the Interbus agreement will be signed and, if it is not, we will seek to negotiate an extension with the EU or to put in place bilateral agreements with specific countries as needed.

On cabotage, which is the transport of passengers between two places in the same country by a transport operator from another country, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked a question about what limited cabotage was. In this case it is limited because it is only an operation for the six counties in the Republic of Ireland which border Northern Ireland. That is the limitation of this cabotage. The no-deal legislation that we already have in place would allow EU operators to continue such cabotage operations. Under the EU regulation, cabotage is allowed for regular and special regular services within the Irish border counties, as I have noted. I can therefore assure noble Lords that the Government recognise the importance of cabotage, particularly on the island of Ireland, and that we will work closely and fairly rapidly with the Republic of Ireland and the EU to make sure that cabotage can continue.

There was a question about what would happen if neither of those agreements was in place. That is hypothetical—I do not expect that they would not be—but it leads to something slightly more interesting. If we did not accede to the Interbus agreement under the protocol in our own right for regular services, the EU could offer regular services to the UK, but the UK could not, so there would be a mismatch.

Similarly, the EU could offer cabotage, but the Northern Irish or the UK could not. The question is: what would happen if we could not accede to the Interbus agreement or did not achieve cabotage? At this moment, we have something that might be seen as a carrot or as a stick. In the interests of our tourism industry and for other good economic and social reasons, EU operators can access the UK. However, UK Ministers have the power to amend EU operators’ access in future. I am sure we have no intention to do that, but I point out that we have reached agreement on operating in each other’s markets—and I am sure we will in future—because it is not in the interests of anybody for that not to continue.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked whether a new operator could start a service. He is correct: a EU operator could but a UK operator could not. However, there is only one operator anyway: Translink. I am not aware that a second operator would want to come into the market, particularly in the timescale that we are talking about. If there is concern, we should be very interested to hear it; we have not heard it yet, so I leave it at that.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I apologise to him for not having read his report. However, it will be on my weekend reading list. It is a very important topic, and I thank him for bringing the report to my attention and for his contribution today about the broader issues that we face.

It is not in our interests that transportation services between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland fail, and we as a Government will strive extremely hard to ensure that they continue. I hope that I have managed to address the points raised. If there are any remaining, I shall certainly write; otherwise, I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson]

Before the Minister sits down, I wish to clarify the situation. The papers from the Printed Paper Office made clear that no impact assessment has been prepared. I express my concern about that and should be grateful if she would explain why that is the case.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

With apologies to the noble Baroness, I forgot that question. She is indeed right: no impact assessment was published in this case because any impact was deemed to be de minimis, as is normally the custom.

HS2

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Monday 20th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, I join my noble friend in welcoming the report of the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee. We will respond to that in detail, before the Summer Recess, once we have had a chance to consider all the issues therein. As for whether we should have started in the north, obviously we recognise that the infrastructure in the north needs investment; that is why we are investing a total of £48 billion across the network, which is a record amount. The northern powerhouse rail project in particular will be very much welcomed. However, it is in a much earlier stage of development. Our intention is to crack on with HS2 phase 1 and phase 2a, and then phase 2b will link into the northern powerhouse rail, thereby connecting the entire country.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, demanding the cancellation of HS2 has become the new virility test for would-be Tory leadership candidates, and I fear that it might be the next economically damaging decision made by the Government solely to please Conservative Party members. I believe that HS2 is needed, but obviously costs need to be brought under control. The easiest way to do that is to make Old Oak Common the terminus in London, rather than Euston. I ask the Minister: will the Government take seriously that aspect of the committee’s report and act upon it, please?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, we have heard the request that HS2 terminate at Old Oak Common. We are not minded to agree to that, but we will of course read the report and respond in due course.

Heathrow Airport

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 15th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord is completely right. The UK has the third-largest aviation sector in the world; it is very successful indeed. The way in which we will achieve decarbonisation of the aviation sector is twofold: first, by working with all other countries around the world to reach international agreements and, secondly, by making sure that it is successful and able to put money back into innovation so that we can decarbonise aircraft and look for other sustainable fuels.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the percentage of people travelling to Heathrow by public transport has fallen in the last year or so, with more people using taxi services. However, the Government’s plans for Heathrow require an ambitious increase in the use of public transport—one of the red lines that the Minister referred to. That is necessary if the planned reduction in carbon emissions is to be achieved. How do the Government intend to ensure that far more passengers and employees take public transport to Heathrow?

Rail Safety (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Monday 13th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these instruments will be needed if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and are important in ensuring clarity, certainty and confidence for the rail industry and its customers. I shall provide some background. These three instruments make corrections to several pieces of EU and domestic legislation covering rail safety in Great Britain and rail safety, train driver and operator licensing, access and management and cross-border rail workers’ rights in Northern Ireland.

I turn first to the Rail Safety (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which I will refer to as the GB rail safety instrument. This instrument will make technical corrections to the Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 and the Railways (Access to Training Services) Regulations 2006. These sets of regulations, which transposed EU law, set out among other things the requirement to obtain the appropriate safety certificates or authorisations before operating vehicles or managing infrastructure on the railway in Great Britain.

I turn to the two Northern Ireland instruments. Rail is a transferred matter for Northern Ireland, and in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive, it has been agreed that the UK Government will be responsible for the necessary Northern Ireland EU Exit legislation at Westminster. In preparing these instruments, officials from the Department for Transport have worked closely with their counterparts in the Department for Infra- structure in Northern Ireland.

The first of the two Northern Ireland instruments, the Railways (Safety Management) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2019, which I will refer to as the Northern Ireland rail safety regulations, is similar to the GB rail safety instrument. It will correct deficiencies in the Railways (Safety Management) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2006, the regulations that established the legislative regime for managing railway safety in Northern Ireland. The second of the two, the Railways (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2019, also known as the Northern Ireland composite regulations, will correct deficiencies in three pieces of Northern Ireland rail legislation. Among other things, those regulations established a common regulatory regime for licensing and certifying train drivers and operators on the railways. They also implemented rules on aspects of the working conditions of rail workers engaged in interoperable cross-border railway services.

These instruments will correct deficiencies in legislation as a result of the UK leaving the EU. The vast majority of these corrections are minor and technical—for example, removing references to “member state”. It is important to emphasise that the GB rail safety instrument will preserve the status quo, including the requirements and procedures for obtaining safety certificates and authorisations as well as the requirements for rail operators to establish and maintain common safety management systems. The Government’s highest rail priority is to maintain safety and our highly effective safety regime, which is one of the safest in Europe. The regulations secure that regime.

The GB rail safety instrument will remove certain requirements placed on the Office of Rail and Road to share information with the European Union Agency for Railways. However, there will be a power for the ORR to provide certain safety information to EU bodies on a discretionary basis so we can continue to contribute to a safer European railway.

Safety certificates issued in EEA member states will continue to be recognised in Great Britain after the UK’s exit from the EU. However, it is the Government’s intention to lay a second instrument that will limit that recognition to a two-year transitional period after exit or until the relevant certificates expire, whichever is the sooner. This is consistent with previous rail EU exit instruments that have introduced a similar recognition period for train driver and operator licences, and it strikes a balance between allowing for a reasonable transitional period and enabling greater control over the rail safety framework.

The equivalent regulations for rail safety in Northern Ireland will mirror the GB safety regulations, with the exception that Northern Ireland institutions have no plans to introduce a two-year recognition period for EEA licences and certificates, recognising the greater role of cross-border services in Northern Ireland. These documents will be recognised indefinitely in Northern Ireland to enable the continued recognition of licences and certificates issued in the Republic of Ireland.

As well as making minor changes—for example, removing references to “member state”—the NI composite regulations will preserve the status quo for rail operations in Northern Ireland. In short, that means that operators and train drivers in Northern Ireland will have clarity and confidence about the regime.

It should be noted that the EU has adopted a regulation that will provide a temporary extension to the validity of authorisations, certificates and licences required to run cross-border services. This contingency measure is applicable for nine months in the event that the UK leaves the EU without a deal in place and supplements the extensive efforts already made by the Government and rail operators to secure these important services. While the Government very much welcome the EU regulation, this alone does not provide the necessary certainty for industry which these instruments provide.

These instruments were originally laid under the negative procedure in February of this year. The House of Commons European Statutory Instruments Committee agreed to the use of the negative procedure, but in March the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee of your Lordships’ House recommended that the affirmative procedure should apply as noble Lords might wish to debate the potential impacts on cross-border rail services and those that operate them.

While the Government accepted the committee’s recommendation to lay the instruments under the affirmative procedure, using the standard draft affirmative procedure would almost certainly have meant that the instruments would not have come into effect in time had the UK left the EU on either 29 March or 12 April. Therefore, the Government concluded that, to ensure the instruments were in place for the day expected at that time to be exit day, using the “made affirmative” procedure was appropriate. The Minister responsible for the railways wrote to the chairs of the committees in April to explain this decision and the reasons behind it.

Noble Lords will be aware that, while the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has cleared without comment the GB rail safety and the Northern Ireland composite instruments, it has drawn the special attention of your Lordships’ House to the Northern Ireland rail safety instrument on two minor instances of “defective drafting”.

Specifically, the JCSI identified three missing words in a definition relating to the Northern Ireland Department for Infrastructure’s monitoring of safety targets, namely the term “risk to whole”. The committee identified that the term,

“risk to society as a whole”,

appears in paragraph 12(3)(f) of Schedule 7 and it is this term that should have been defined in paragraph 2, in place of “risk to whole”.

The committee also considered that the words,

“risk to society as a whole”,

should have been set out in full in the table in paragraph 14 of Schedule 7, rather than using the label “whole society”. This table sets out how accidents to various categories of person—employees, passengers, et cetera—should be calculated, with the label “whole society” indicating the need to show the total number of serious accidents and fatalities across all those categories; namely, across society as a whole.

I am grateful to the committee for its work and for drawing these points to the attention of the House. The Government do not consider that there will be any real impact on the practicable operation of these provisions or that there will be any possibility for confusion by the Department for Infrastructure. It remains very important that the Northern Ireland rail safety instrument, dealing as it does with a critical area, stays in place as law so as to provide the necessary confidence and certainty that the rail industry and travelling public need. I can therefore confirm that the Government will address these minor drafting points in a subsequent instrument that will be laid in advance of this instrument coming into effect on exit day. I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I start by expressing my regret that we are discussing Northern Ireland legislation at all. I would have hoped that the Assembly would be up and running again by now. I am not apportioning blame within this Chamber but simply making it clear that I believe it is a great disadvantage to Northern Ireland that the Assembly is not sitting.

These three SIs are being made by an unusual procedure, as the Minister has made clear. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee recommended that the originally intended negative procedure should be upgraded to the affirmative procedure because of the impact on cross-border operations, especially in Northern Ireland. In the event, because these SIs were not laid until 18 February, it was too late for the usual procedure to be followed, and instead they have been laid under the urgent “made affirmative” process, rather than the usual draft procedure. Northern Ireland deserves better than this. I realise it was not the Government’s intention to have run this as close to the wire as they have, but why was it left so late to lay these SIs? I know that the Government had intended to use the negative procedure, but the fact is that the committee has the right to recommend a change of procedure, and regularly does, so it is the Government’s job to anticipate a change such as that and to allow as much time as possible.

Of course, the irony is that we did not leave the EU on 29 March, and it does not look as though we are going to be leaving any day now. So, in fact, the Government had time to do it by the usual procedure. The Government rather overstate the amount we have to do in this House and in the other place. Business is actually fairly leisurely. Therefore, it could have been done in the usual way, if only everyone had been able to anticipate the situation.

My second question is my usual one. I am concerned once again that the obligation to share information, in this case on safety issues, is being removed and replaced with a power to share information. These three SIs all deal with issues of safety, and my view is that we should not be playing politics with issues of safety and should not be risking the possibility that, either intentionally or unintentionally, safety information will be held back. I ask the Minister: when a safety certificate issued in the UK is revoked by the ORR, what about a rail company that operates in both the UK and the EU? Would the Government then still have a legal obligation to inform the EU?

As the Minister mentioned, there are temporary arrangements to carry the industry over the period after exit. My concern is that EU Part A safety certificates would be recognised for a maximum of two years after Brexit or until they expire. This procedure has been used for other transport-related SIs, and I have previously raised my concern that there is unnecessary uncertainty about this. Some safety certificates will last for two years and some will not, because they will run out earlier. There is uncertainty there.

Meanwhile, the EU has adopted regulation 2019/503, which allows UK certificates to continue to be valid for nine months after exit. My concern is that we are talking about two years in Britain and nine months for British certificates in the EU, so we do not have a consistency of approach. The EU provision appears to apply only to the Republic of Ireland and France, so I ask the Minister: what about Belgium and the Netherlands? They are regularly in receipt of trains which start in the UK, so if these provisions will not apply in Belgium and the Netherlands—as I understand from the Explanatory Memorandum—then what about those trains going beyond those two countries?

Electric Vehicles: Charging Points

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 7th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they plan to introduce to encourage local authorities to install more charging points for electric vehicles.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the private sector has funded the majority of the UK’s 17,000 public charge points, and we want this to continue. The Government’s role is to provide the right policy environment to encourage private sector investment and limited support when necessary. We provide guidance and some funding to local authorities: around £4 million to the on-street residential scheme, £40 million to eight Go Ultra Low cities and further funds for taxi and bus infrastructure funding.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, despite that, the growth in the electric vehicle market is not as rapid as it needs to be. This is a chicken-and-egg situation. Sales of electric vehicles will not increase dramatically until users are confident that they can find a charging point. Will the Government provide stronger leadership and support to local authorities, some of which have not yet installed a single charging point? Fleet owners are responsible for half of all new cars purchased. Will the Government consider introducing a range of new incentives to encourage them to opt for EVs?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Baroness for a number of questions there. I disagree with her that growth is not rapid. We are the second-largest market for electric vehicles in Europe. I believe that the rollout to date has been very successful. For example, within the last 30 days 1,000 charge points have been introduced. The noble Baroness spoke about local authorities and we support the work they are doing. There is no more funding available but we are encouraging the private sector to step up and, with £400 million in the charging infrastructure investment fund, we believe that it will.

Brexit: No-deal Ferry Contracts

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 1st May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord is right that this particular insurance policy falls away because these were six-month contracts, and now that we have the extension to 31 October the contracts are obviously not needed. These contracts are very visible, but they are actually an extremely small proportion of our no-deal planning. A total of £4 billion has been put in place as an insurance package to make sure that, in the event of no deal, which remains the legal default, we will be able to protect our citizens.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, every time I think that the Secretary of State has extracted the last vestige of farce from these ferry contracts, he seems to plumb new depths. I want to take up the point about P&O. Can the Minister explain to us whether the Government are facing court action from P&O and what stage any action is at in that case? The Government claim to have paid £800,000 for the legal advice on which these contracts were based. That is an awfully large sum to pay for duff advice—if indeed the advice that was given was followed. Can we have the Minister’s assurance that the Government will review how and from whom they seek advice on such matters?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

There were a couple of points there from the noble Baroness, for which I am grateful. Knowing what I know now from my short time in the department and from my time as a Defra Whip, I believe that, had I been the Secretary of State, I would have made the same decisions. These are very important contracts. The other thing to be aware of is that the contracts had to be as flexible as possible. Many will say, “Oh, they do not seem particularly flexible”, but this is all dependent on the maritime market, which is not the same as other markets. The maritime market operates in periods of weeks and months rather than hours and days. We believe that the legal advice is appropriate. I can confirm that a case is being brought by P&O, but obviously I cannot comment on an ongoing legal case.

Railways: Midland Main Line

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Thursday 25th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Electrification is merely a form of propulsion for trains. It is not the be-all and end-all. It comes at a cost, sometimes to local communities. For example, if we use bi-mode trains in diesel mode—I refer to modern diesel engines—there is no need for the intrusive wires and masts that concern local communities. The environmental impact of these trains is less than that of current ones. I believe that any thoughts of HS2’s demise are greatly exaggerated.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

Millions of pounds have already been spent on raising the bridges on the 22 miles that will lie in the middle of the two electrified sections of this line. Is it not time to learn lessons from the Great Western electrification, and accept that electrification can now be done for half the cost of that original project and that, as they currently stand, bi-mode trains are heavier and more costly to run and maintain? Does the Minister accept that the whole line should be electrified?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am afraid to disappoint the noble Baroness but the Minister does not accept that. We looked at the costs and benefits of the full electrification of this line and concluded that, in terms of passenger experience, the same benefits can be achieved by going a different way. She mentioned the money that has been spent on bridges. However, it was not wasted: it has improved the stability of those bridges, many of which were fairly old, and means that the passage of freight is now easier.

Honda in Swindon

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 19th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Perhaps the one that will be brought to a vote in the near future.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the best assistance the UK Government can give to our flagging car industry is to encourage sales of more electric vehicles. The Minister has outlined measures that the Government have taken to encourage production, but they have failed to do anything to encourage people to purchase such vehicles. Can the Minister explain when the Government will do something to encourage sales?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, the best way to encourage sales is to make sure that the cars represent value for money. One of the most difficult challenges in the electrification of cars is the battery, as I am sure all noble Lords know. That is why the Government committed £246 million to the Faraday battery challenge. This will make sure that the UK is at the forefront of developing and designing the batteries that we need for these cars. Eventually, the price of the car will come down as the batteries become more effective and their range improves. They will, therefore, become much more attractive to consumers as the cost per car falls.

Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 28th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

What are the Government doing to advertise these new arrangements to people and indeed to the industry as a whole? She is quite right that many travel agents will belong to trade associations, but not all of them necessarily will. Nowadays, people buy their goods online, including from abroad, and they might think they will continue to have the protections they had in the past.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness is quite right, but that is a consequence of regulations that have already been through your Lordships’ House. Significant guidance was published at the same time and goes into some detail about LTAs and what would and would not constitute an LTA. We will work with the trade associations and make sure that the guidance is kept up to date as we move to the next phase.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, for his balanced assessment of this legislation. He mentioned building one’s own holiday, which I am sure many noble Lords do. It is slightly beyond the scope of the discussions today, but if I can get any further information, I would be happy to write to him. I believe that takes me to the end of the questions, and I beg to move.

Bombardier

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Thursday 22nd November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for repeating the Statement. This is a very significant development, because Bombardier is one the biggest employers in Northern Ireland. This is very sad news for the whole of Northern Ireland.

Earlier this month, Bombardier announced that it would have to cut 5,000 jobs across its global operations. Of that, 3,000 would be in Canada. It seems to me that, for a very small country, the number of jobs being cut in Northern Ireland will have a disproportionate effect. It also seems that the loss of 500 jobs, which is a considerable number, does not reflect the assurances the Government said they received from Bombardier when they made their investment in research earlier in the year.

It is a particularly bitter blow for east Belfast, where the company is based, and especially for the workers and families who will be directly affected. It is of great importance, because these are well-paid, highly skilled workers in a relatively low-paid economy. At the moment, Northern Ireland is in a particularly uncertain situation; our whole economy is uncertain, but Northern Ireland’s is more uncertain than the rest.

Bombardier’s struggle to bring in orders for its C series jets was almost certainly exacerbated by the threat of punitive US tariffs which hung over the company for several months. What are the Government doing to defend the rules-based international trade system in the Trump era? Can the Minister tell us if they are still hopeful for a trade deal with the US that benefits UK businesses?

The Government could have a vital role to play in helping these workers reskill and retrain in the face of a rapidly changing labour market. What steps are officials in Northern Ireland taking in this regard, and have the Government considered supporting people with, for example, an endowment, or an individual learning account which they can use at any stage in life to access further education or training?

The Statement says that the Government have no role in Bombardier’s decisions, as it is a private company. But that overlooks entirely the leverage given to them by the £20 million that they invested in the company this year for research, and to help it improve efficiency. Can the Minister explain what efficiencies they anticipated as a result of this investment? From time to time, the word “efficiency” actually means cutting jobs. Was there a clear agreement about job security when that money was invested?

There is, of course, a big supply chain in Northern Ireland which is also affected. Can the Minister give us an estimate of the value of that supply chain, and the number of jobs involved? Will the Government undertake to have meetings with any of those in the supply chain whose companies and jobs will be affected? Finally, the Statement refers to the joint venture with Airbus. Can the Minister assure us that Airbus is still in a good position, despite these job cuts, with its partner?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and the noble Lady, Baroness Randerson, for their contributions. A number of issues were raised, and I will cover as many as I can. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, that it was very good that we managed to fend off the tariffs coming from the US. I pay tribute to the work done by the unions, and to the Prime Minster, who was instrumental in making sure that Bombardier was not hit by these very significant tariffs, which would have had a very difficult impact on its business.

Over the coming days, we will meet with Bombardier —I think the first meeting is this afternoon. We will encourage the company to work with the unions; I am disappointed to hear that it did not. We are at the very start of a 90-day consultation period, which will obviously include numerous meetings with the unions, employees and, indeed, the company.

On the comments in the Statement about the commitments that have been given, these are not at all inconsistent with what is happening. My understanding is that different parts of the business are responding in different ways to the global markets for their respective products. Certainly, the Airbus-Bombardier joint venture is proceeding successfully—that is about a quarter of the workforce in Belfast—and there is no reason to suspect that there will be any job losses at all there. Our ongoing discussions with Bombardier are very good, because it is a key part of the aerospace growth partnership, which meets to discuss the aerospace sector as a whole. The department has a budget of £1.98 billion to invest in R&D over a 13-year period to support the growth of the sector and its transition to new technologies.

On parts of manufacturing going to Morocco and Mexico, that is indeed the case. Some of that involves less-skilled workers and less highly manufactured parts, but what we need to do is to make sure that the R&D is there and that the skilled employment exists to allow those jobs to come back as technology moves on. That is where we are putting our money.

We are confident that the Northern Irish Government have the resources to support the workers to retrain or to find work, but it is important that we understand that we do not currently know who will lose their jobs. We do not know whether that will be compulsory or voluntary, so it is very difficult to talk about retraining or new jobs for these people until we know who they are.

The Government will not be reviewing the £20 million that we contributed to Bombardier in conjunction with Invest Northern Ireland, because it was R&D spending. We have to be clear that research and development is the Government priming the pump. I am afraid that the engine has to run itself, but it is our job to make sure that we put seed funding into projects that we know will be a step change to coming new technologies.

Turning to some of the detail from the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, obviously I cannot commit right here, right now about a trade deal with the US, but she will doubtless be reassured that we will be looking to create as many new trading relationships as we possibly can. That will certainly have benefits when it comes to future tariffs. Regarding the supply chain, again, it is too early to tell because we do not know where the jobs will come from, what elements of the business will be downsizing and what the consequences will be for the supply chain. It might be that the manufacturing elements are slightly overstaffed as technology has improved, and that the impact on the supply chain will be very small because there will still be products going through it. Until we understand that a bit more, I do not think that we can comment on it.

Marine Special Protection Areas

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Randerson

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

It would not be a Question about the sea if there was not an intervention from the noble Lord, Lord West. I am very pleased to be able to tell him that Defra is working very closely with the Marine Management Organisation, the IFCAs, the Royal Navy and the Border Force to make sure that appropriate arrangements are in place. Noble Lords must remember that surveillance matters as well. There are three different types of surveillance: vessel monitoring systems, electronic reporting and data systems, and remote electronic monitoring. Although we talk about the Royal Navy ships as patrol vessels—and we should note that they are indeed being upgraded—these ships are not just wandering around looking for people doing bad things; they are responding to the surveillance. Therefore, perhaps we should call them response vessels instead.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, this sounds like a sledgehammer being used to crack a nut. The economy of the Scilly Isles depends on their peaceful beauty, and the sea-birds there are abundant. The islanders rely on the birds as part of their economy because they are so important to tourism. Is there any evidence of the need for additional protection for the birds on the Isles of Scilly? If that evidence has been found, will the Minister publish it?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The scope for extending the SPA in the Isles of Scilly is being considered at the moment. So far, there has been informal dialogue with stakeholders. Natural England has asked Defra Ministers for permission to extend the SPA and they are considering it. It is our understanding that the proposals before Ministers will protect the foraging grounds of the assemblage of 20,000 sea-birds on the Isles of Scilly. However, Ministers are unlikely to increase the regulatory burden over and above what is currently required. It must be remembered that a number of SPAs have been in force in the Isles of Scilly since 2001, with a further expansion in 2005. The Isles of Scilly have long been protected and they should be in future.