Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill [HL]

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Friday 19th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Uddin for her remarks and, indeed, I echo her final comments to the House.

I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, on successfully introducing her Bill. I also thank her most sincerely for sending me the excellent briefing that she prepared on why she felt moved to bring forward this Private Member’s Bill.

There is no doubt, as this debate reveals, that there is very serious disquiet about the fate of some women who are subject to some religious laws—particularly Muslim women under Sharia law, although, as the noble Lord, Lord Kalms, pointed out, it is not limited to the mediation and arbitration services of the Sharia law councils. We cannot ignore those concerns. What contribution this Bill will make to remedy that discrimination is the question before us today, and the right reverend Prelate posed four excellent questions.

We on these Benches are proud of our record both in government and in opposition in championing women’s equality and fighting hard against discrimination wherever it is found. Indeed, almost all the legislation that seeks to protect women, dealing with discrimination and violence against women, has been introduced by Labour Governments. We massively increased the resources available to tackle violence against women; we recast the legislative framework; and we increased sentences for offenders. An irony here is that, because of the forthcoming reductions in legal aid, women who seek redress on domestic violence grounds will find that even more difficult, and we know that, because of the austerity agenda, things such as refuges will not be as widely available as they were.

It is not surprising that we would be very concerned if the Equality Act, which I helped to steer through your Lordships’ House in 2010, were deficient in the protection that it offers against discrimination. Therefore, my first question is directed at the Minister, as well as at the noble Baroness. Have the Government carried out, as it were, a sweep and identified the loopholes that this Bill seeks to plug, and does the Bill succeed in strengthening the existing legislation in the way that the noble Baroness proposes, or is part of the issue here enforcement of the existing legislation? If so, in what way, and how can we remedy that?

I am aware that many organisations are very concerned about the position faced by some Muslim women in the terms outlined by the noble Baroness and others today, particularly with regard to the rights of women who are not married under British civil law. I completely accept the argument that has been made by most noble Lords—that, as citizens of the UK, we are all subject to the same laws. We have to ensure that that is not just something that we say but a reality, and that is partly what the Bill is about.

I read with interest the media coverage that this issue received when the noble Baroness launched her Bill. I have read her briefing and that of the British Academy, which has already been referred to. I have also read what the Islamic Sharia Council has to say. Southall Black Sisters supports the Bill in general but is concerned about some of its detail. I was also very struck by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, many of whose reservations I think we may share.

I come from and grew up in Bradford, and this whole discussion has reminded me of something that we have had to deal with in Bradford in the past few years. The issue was the treatment of children, particularly boys, in the madrassahs and mosques. The IPPR think tank, with the support of the Gulbenkian Foundation, published a generally very positive report about the work of the madrassahs and supplementary schools. However, it pointed to the ill treatment of children, particularly boys. There was also a television programme and a radio programme, which noble Lords might remember.

I will reflect on how that was dealt with in Bradford. Using existing powers and the current legal framework, Bradford Council required that all supplementary schools receiving its support, including madrassahs, had to comply with certain conditions. All staff working with children had to undergo enhanced CRB disclosure; there had to be a fully operational child protection policy and a designated person for child protection; and there had to be attendance at child protection training.

To encourage supplementary schools, the council, through its diversity and cohesion service working with the local safeguarding board, produced a model child protection policy in 2007. This was translated into the many community languages that we have in Bradford, including Urdu and Bengali, to ensure that staff working with children in faith-based organisations fully understood their roles and responsibilities when it came to safeguarding the children and young people in their care. This was backed up by child protection training from the council. Positive behaviour management courses were introduced in 2009 to help the supplementary schools address challenging behaviour by young people. In 2011, the Council for Mosques and the local safeguarding board jointly funded a child protection social work post, based in the Council for Mosques, to advise madrassahs on safe childcare practices.

The reason I mention the ongoing programme in Bradford is that no new legislation was required to remedy what was clearly a matter of very great concern. What was required was the enforcement of existing legislation and practice and a great deal of communication on the ground. A great deal of sensitive work was carried out with local mosques and community leaders, and very firm signals were given about how child protection law applied in this case. The programme was led by members and officers of the council, and it remains part of its ongoing community cohesion work.

My question to the noble Baroness, and to the Minister is: how much work has been done to have those types of discussions and to apply those sorts of approaches to enforce the existing legal framework and ensure that the anti-discrimination law that we already have applies across the piece in the way that was intended? My question is about discussions that the noble Baroness may have had with the Government, law officers and community leaders to explore ways of ensuring that our equalities legislation is enforced and underpins the work of the arbitration and mediation services, as it should.

I was struck by a suggestion that the British Academy made. It stated:

“The EHRC should introduce a benchmark within its Equality Measurement Framework to capture the experience of women users of minority legal orders. The result should be published as part of the Triennial Review which monitors progress on equality, dignity and respect for UK citizens. This could form the basis for considering whether the EHRC has a role in supporting religious women who are users of minority legal orders, as suggested by the EHRC’s recent research on understanding equality and human rights in relation to religion and belief”.

I wonder whether this has happened, and whether it would be a very good idea.

We are tackling a very serious problem. It may be that equalities and other legislation need to be strengthened. I was very reassured when the noble Baroness said that the issue is complex, sensitive and delicate, and that it would be a very good idea to open it up for broader examination and debate in Committee. Ultimately, if action needs to be taken, there is no question that we will support it, but it needs to be at the end of that process. I accept that. The proposals in the Bill are very important. We on these Benches will dedicate ourselves to finding legislative or other solutions to the discrimination that has been outlined. We support the Second Reading and look forward to working with the noble Baroness and the Government to find solutions to these problems.