Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

Could I just clarify for the noble Baroness that I do not claim that my wording is perfect? I brought the National Commissioning Board in—slightly against my better judgment, I have to admit—because it has the responsibility for, in a sense, approving the commissioning arrangements and spending the money. My instincts were that it would not support this unless it had been consulted and was satisfied with the commissioning arrangements.

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I will be very brief because my noble friend and other noble Lords have pretty much covered the territory here. This small group of amendments is rather important and significantly improves the Bill. I realise that they are probing amendments, but they do three things. The first amendment is about changing culture. It talks about the manner of the integration of services, not just an integrated manner. The second one says that we need to define integration. This must be perhaps the third or fourth debate that we have had on integration in the past however many weeks. It seems quite clear that there needs to be some definition of integration in the Bill. My noble friend Lord Warner explained that. Given that many parts of the Bill offer a list of different ways in which things can be described and done, I see no reason why the same list on integration cannot be included. The third point in the amendment to which I was pleased to be able to put my name is about encouraging co-operation across the piece. Having the national Commissioning Board mentioned in that is rather important.

Those three points about changing the culture, defining what you mean and encouraging co-operation seem to me to be the type of message that any health and well-being board will look to as it starts up its work. It will look to what is in the Bill, what is in guidance and what is in statutory instruments to help it to work out what to do. To have something that defines the kind of culture that is expected, defines integration and the way the bodies should work, lists the bodies that should work together, if not in the Bill then certainly in guidance, and explains the manner in which they are expected to work seems to me to be a very helpful way forward.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, these amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Warner, are primarily concerned with strengthening the role of health and well-being boards in promoting integration between health and social care and wider aspects. I completely understand why noble Lords have felt moved to support these amendments. They are undoubtedly well intentioned, but I am afraid that I have a problem with them.

Amendment 336, which I will speak about more fully in a second, could be seen to enable changes to be made to the fundamental responsibility for functions, which we are clear would not be right. Amendments 332 and 335 would also introduce a prescriptive definition of integration. I resist that idea not just because it would be counter to the principles of localism, which we believe are very important, but because it could act as a diversion from effective integrated working between commissioners. I do not see the need for a definition beyond what the clause already says, which seems quite clear.

We have a shared intent on the importance of integration, but I cannot agree that this cause would be aided by pinning down a definition in primary legislation. I see no need for that. Apart from anything else, having a definition set in primary legislation would risk creating inflexibility as times and practices change. We should focus on removing barriers on the ground to ensure integration. That is where the Government’s response to the Future Forum’s work will, I hope, make a difference. We aim to publish our response to the Future Forum’s report before the Report stage of this Bill.

I am sure that Amendment 336 is intended to be helpful, but it might create confusion between the arrangements mentioned in the amendment and those made under Section 75 of the NHS Act, which would enable local authorities and CCGs to enter into partnership arrangements such as lead commissioning and pooled budgets. Existing provisions in the Bill are designed to encourage and enable the NHS and local government to improve patient outcomes through more effective co-ordinated working. The Bill provides the basis for better collaboration, partnership working and integration across local government and the NHS at all levels. I hope that that, in part at least, answers the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Patel.

Indeed, health and well-being boards will have a strong role in promoting joined-up commissioning between health, public health and social care. Through their duty to promote integrated working between commissioners, they will also be in a good position to promote more integrated provision for patients, social care service users and carers. They will also be able to encourage close working between the commissioning of social care, public health and NHS services and aspects of the wider local authority agenda that also influence health and well-being, such as housing, education and the environment. Through statutory guidance on preparing the joint health and well-being strategy, and the Government’s mandate to the NHS Commissioning Board, we will be encouraging lead commissioning and integrated provision.

There are enough levers and mechanisms in the system to encourage every part of the system to look for ways of joining up services, and the commissioning of those services. I hope that I have reassured noble Lords of our intentions, and that the noble Lord feels able to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Thornton]

If a new health and well-being board got in touch with the Minister, or perhaps with the Commissioning Board, and asked whether it would please say which form of integration it should be using or how it should be doing this, would he tell it to work it out for itself?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, we have to give credit to people on the ground to be the professionals that we know them to be. Integrated working can take many forms, as we have discussed quite often in Committee. I will not rehearse the various manifestations of integration. Once we have mandated the duties in the Bill and issued statutory guidance on what good practice looks like, I really think that it will be up to people on the ground to decide how best to set about fulfilling the duties and expectations placed on them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

My Lords, I shall add a few words because a pharmacist contacted me. Pharmacists are being encouraged to take on more and more, and the drugs are extremely difficult. Some drugs are the same but have different names. It is extremely difficult for patients too, and as they often go to pharmacies for advice it is really very important there this is openness and honesty when a mistake is made. However, I would not like this amendment to open a door for more mistakes to be made.

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I support the amendment. I would have put my name to it, had I had the opportunity. However, in Committee those on the Liberal Democrat Benches have tended to block up their own amendments and have not sought support from across the House, which is a great pity.

My experience in dealing with the many drugs that my mother takes is that in fact pharmacists are often those who spot the doctor’s mistake. Our local pharmacists do an excellent job. My wider interest in this Bill and in pharmacists is that they play the proper, important role they need to play at local level in the health and well-being boards and with the planning at a local level of both preventive medicine and their jobs at dispensing.

This is also about a level playing field in regulation, which is very important. This Bill offers probably the only opportunity that there will be in the next few years to put right this wrong. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will support this amendment—and if not this one, then one like it at a later stage in the Bill—and rectify this error.