Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 23rd November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I first congratulate my noble friend Lord Hunt on introducing this Bill and all noble Lords on an excellent debate. As the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said, this is the place where we have these debates—sometimes they are painful, sometimes they are excellent and sometimes they are very enlightening. I also thank the Library and others who have given us such excellent briefings in preparation for this debate, including the British Heart Foundation, the BMA, Fight for Sight and many others.

I was heartened by many of the contributions we have heard today, including those from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, who mentioned the issue of organ availability among BAME communities, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Chisholm, Lady Sater and Lady Finlay. As my noble friend Lady Crawley said, in a moving speech which I know was in part based on her family’s experience, the blessing of modern science, which allows lives to be saved, is not fully realised because of the lack of organs.

I also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, on her contribution—it is a pity that she is not in her place now—and I welcome the speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Carlisle. I think I understood that the Church of England is now moving, as it ever does, in a slow and considered way, in what I hope is the right direction and ending up in the right place.

I particularly welcome the remarks of my noble friend Lord Elder, and his bearing witness to the successful outcome of organ donation, for which we are all—particularly those of us in the Labour family—very profoundly grateful.

I think the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, came close to suggesting that the Bill gives the state the right to take organs, but I do not believe that is the point of this Bill at all. I think, as many noble Lords have said, that this Bill is part of a process of shifting the debate, the commitment and the resourcing of organ donation as well as the thinking about what it means and how it should go forward. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on her pioneering work. Personally, I am very happy to follow Wales in this matter.

Without doubt, across the parties it has been agreed that the current law needs to be changed, and I believe that this Bill is the best first step forward in achieving the change we seek to move towards an opt-out system. With so many people who will benefit, it becomes difficult not to support this Bill and it is an honour to be able to support it. As my honourable friend Jon Ashworth said in the House of Commons, it is Labour policy, and I am very pleased to say that is the case. I congratulate Geoffrey Robinson MP and Dan Jarvis MP on the wonderful speeches they made in the Commons, and the Daily Mirror for its tireless campaign to bring about this change.

Like many noble Lords, I have been an organ donor for as long as I have been a blood donor and could sign the forms. All of my family are donors and we have discussed our wishes in this regard. This legislation will mean less ambiguity at what is probably the most stressful and sensitive time for family members. The idea that adults and children die waiting for an organ that could save their lives is painful and unnecessary. The gift of giving is part of our human condition. Following the death of my father-in-law, Henry Carr, I know that my family felt proud of and comforted by the fact that people benefited—at least two or three lives were transformed through the gift of organ donation.

Given that the Prime Minister and the Government have expressed support for legislation of this nature at various stages, I hope that the Minister can assure your Lordships’ House that the remaining stages of the Bill will take place early in the new year. Doing so will send a strong signal to the outside world and bring hope to many families across our country.

Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 1st February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I think I am with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others in having been sceptical of an opt-out system, not least when we came to discuss it at some length—I see the noble Lord, Lord Reid, there—during the passage of the Human Tissue Act back in 2003 or thereabouts. We looked at it at some length. That prompted the pursuit by subsequent Governments, including the coalition Government in which I served, of every available opportunity to try to increase donor rates, not least by improving the system of transplant co-ordination and the supply of specialist transplant nurses.

My first point, to which I hope my noble friend the Minister will respond positively, is that I do not share the view that under this Bill resources for information and for the transplant system—in particular for an increase in specialist transplant nursing support—are in any sense in competition. We need to do both, and I hope the Minister will be able to confirm that we will seek wherever possible to have exactly that support through transplant nurses. It is really important that we do. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, was referring to that when she referred to Spain. At the time, we looked in some detail at the Spanish example. Spain said to us that probably the bigger element in its success was not that it was an opt-out system but that it had really effective transplant co-ordination and strong support for families through trained nursing and support staff. That is the most important thing.

However—not to rerun Second Reading, to which I contributed—we have an ethical obligation to secure the maximum availability of organs for those waiting for them, some of whom, sadly, continue not to get access to organs and to die while waiting. We have an ethical conflict, because it is right to say that the state does not own our bodies. We have a right to determine what happens. My noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy was absolutely correct in pointing out that the Bill offers an opportunity for those who wish to control what happens to their organs and bodies after death to make that explicit.

This brings me to my final point, which is to further thank my noble friend Lord McColl for raising these issues. If we are to go down this path, it is absolutely essential that the families of everyone who may be—sadly after death—a donor must be aware that they had an opportunity to consider this. Whether they took any action is a matter for them. We must be confident that the information, not only in the first instance but subsequently, is such that nobody could reasonably be expected not to have been presented with this as an issue they should consider. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, asked what happens if the family disagree. They may, but the law is then very clear that the transplant co-ordinator, nurse or whoever must take the decision must do so seeking to determine what the loved one who has died would have thought. The evidence is not: what do you think, as the person in a qualifying relationship? It is: what can you say about what the view would have been of the person who has died and whose organs are potentially to be donated? That is the issue and the judgment that has to be made, and of course that is where the ethical issue really bites. It is not what we might think about our loved ones, but what we know about what they themselves thought about what should happen to their own organs. For those reasons, my noble friend’s amendments—I know he will not press them, and I think that is absolutely right—have very helpfully given an opportunity for the Minister to give us reassurance on both those points.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall say just a few words. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lords, Lord Carlile, Lord O’Shaughnessy and Lord Lansley, have made the arguments extremely well, so there is no need to repeat them. I just make the practical point that if we want this on the statute book it has to be unamended. We can have these discussions— they are helpful—but that is the truth of the matter. We will all have received a briefing yesterday from Kidney Care UK, which stated that three people die every day waiting for a kidney. That is what we need to bear in mind.

[Baroness Manzoor (Con)]

I was expecting the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, to talk for a little longer, so I thank her very much.

I thank my noble friend Lord McColl for initiating this discussion on the role of the deceased’s loved ones under the proposed new system. This is an important issue that has rightly been the focus of much of the debate in the other place and here. My noble friends Lord McColl and Lord O’Shaughnessy rightly stress the issue of trust. As both my honourable friend the Member for Thurrock and the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, have confirmed on a number of occasions, the family will remain at the heart of the new arrangements, as now. I believe this reassurance has also been given in correspondence to my noble friend and has been confirmed by NHS Blood and Transplant’s medical director and national clinical lead for organ donation. I am happy to give further clarification on this point.

The legislation sets the framework for consent to organ donation and reflects what we already know—that most people support donation and agree that the decision of the potential donor should be paramount. We have, however, always said that, as now, organs and tissues will not be taken without full consultation with persons in a qualifying relationship—that is, the deceased’s close family and friends. There will always be a personal discussion between the specialist nurses for organ donation and the family. This is NHS Blood and Transplant’s current policy and will not change under the new system.

In addition to this policy, the Bill as drafted allows for a person in a qualifying relationship to the deceased to provide information about the deceased’s wishes on donation of their organs and tissues. This is an important safeguard, to find out what the deceased would have wanted and the best way forward. I remind the House that healthcare professionals have a duty of care not only to the patient but to the family. Specialist nurses for organ donations are highly trained professionals from an intensive care or emergency medicine nursing background. When nurses join NHS Blood and Transplant, they initially receive extensive training over a six-month period. This covers supporting families to make end-of-life care decisions, including on organ donation. A key focus of the training is to enhance their skills in supporting acutely bereaved and grieving families.