Seaborne Freight

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

Monday 11th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we went ahead with the contract with Seaborne on the understanding that it was a start-up company and did not currently provide the service. As I explained, this was a shorter and therefore cheaper route, which was why we were keen to make use of it. But we have enough capacity in the remaining contracts for prioritised goods.

The DfT is not party to the dredging work at Ramsgate, but of course we will continue conversations with a number of stakeholders, including Thanet Council, over any plans to re-establish ferry services at the Port of Ramsgate.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the dredging started five weeks ago on 3 January, so accounts must have been submitted or Thanet Council will be aware of what the bill is. Have the Government been told how much that bill is? Will the Government pay that bill at the end of the day? How much is the bill to Slaughter and May, Deloitte and Mott MacDonald, to which the Minister referred, for the assessment of Seaborne’s business plans? Finally, in the Statement on 8 January, the Minister told us:

“We are concerned that in the event of no deal, there will be disruption at the Port of Dover … which is why we are making these contingency plans”.—[Official Report, 8/1/19; col. 2128.]


What replacement contingency plans are now being considered to deal with the disruption at Dover, which the Minister herself predicted?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I said, the DfT is not party to the dredging work. I am not able to comment on the value of contracts held by entities other than my department. Dredging of the port is the responsibility of the relevant port authority and continues to form part of the ongoing discussions. As I said, the DfT will continue conversations with a number of stakeholders, including Thanet Council, over plans to re-establish the ferry service.

On the money paid around the Seaborne contract, the contract awarded to Seaborne was part of a broader procurement exercise to secure additional freight capacity after Brexit, and as part of that the three contracts were awarded. Extensive third-party due diligence was carried out on these so a cost would have been attached to the process even if we had never entered into an agreement with Seaborne.

Brexit: Cross-Channel Transport

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as you would understand, we have received numerous representations about the contract—not surprisingly, given the urgency of the procurement. We consider the contracts to be entirely consistent with the Government’s agreement with Eurotunnel. The contract was awarded under the procedure provided for in Regulation 32 of the Public Contracts Regulations 2015, which implement the EU requirements. As the noble Baroness would expect, we are also working closely with Eurotunnel on plans for when we leave the European Union.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Government subsidise the dredging of Ramsgate harbour? Also, to what extent are they relying on pre-lodged customs declarations to avoid delays at ro-ro ports?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, the department is in discussions with Thanet District Council and Seaborne Freight to agree funding on the arrangements for the infrastructure works at the port of Ramsgate. On the customs modelling, as the noble Lord would expect, we have modelled the customs arrangements extensively. Of course, in the event of no deal it is up to the European Union what will be imposed by EU member states on the EU side of the border, and we are working closely with the French authorities to ensure that any disruption is kept to a minimum.

Seaborne Freight

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

Tuesday 8th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we conducted searches on the director of Seaborne via a third party and found absolutely nothing that would prevent the company contracting with the Government, which is why we went ahead. There was no ministerial direction in this case. The company has been working to open the service for over two years. Since we have given them the contract, it has been developing that service, and there will be updates in the near future.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that international haulage operators are today threatening to drop their channel business because of the risk of customs delays and that those who remain are upping their costs by 5%. Can the Minister confirm this? And how can the Ramsgate-Ostend freight service be viable when the cross-channel freight rate for vehicles, which is linked to the Channel Tunnel rate, stands at £180 per container or lorry? That was the rate in 1981 and is still the same 37 years later. Is it not true that numerous attempts have been made to rekindle that service and all have failed? Is it not also true that after dredging—even at those rates—a four-ship, two-rotation, sixteen-sailings-per-day service is still not viable? Is this just a joke?

[Baroness Sugg]

I assure noble Lords that this is not a joke but part of our contingency planning. We are concerned that in the event of no deal, there will be disruption at the port of Dover. Our first priority is to minimise that disruption on the narrow straits, but we are aware it is a real issue, which is why we are making these contingency plans and why we are looking at alternative ways of ensuring that trade carried on ro-ros can continue to come and go from this country.

Drones: Consultation Response

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank my noble friend for her question and for the work she did on this. She is quite right that the European Commission has proposed a number of measures. We are working very closely with our European partners on implementing them. They are still in draft, as things stand, which is why we are taking action ahead of that, but that work is ongoing. We are working very closely with the European Commission to shape the measures; that is why we have taken action on this ourselves. If we compare our regulatory system with Europe or internationally, it does stand up. It also points out that this is a UK problem, a European problem and a global problem. This is the advent of new technology, and how we best address it is something of a challenge, I fully admit.

We have taken geofencing forward and are working with manufacturers to mandate geofencing and conspicuity, which is incredibly important. One of the problems with the Gatwick incident is that it was a crime. There are ways around conspicuity and geofencing —videos are available on YouTube on how to get around them. We can get all the regulations in place—we have done, and we are doing so—but ultimately this was a crime, so we need to ensure that we have the right police powers in order to track these people down and the right counter-drone technology available at our critical national infrastructure sites, which is what we are doing.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not strangely ironic that we can send a man to the moon and around the moon and we can send starships into outer galaxies but we cannot knock out a little bit of equipment not much bigger than a football which is run by four propellers? Perhaps we have got our priorities wrong. I shall ask the question which has been asked of me by many friends in Maidenhead over the past week. They live near Heathrow, but were unaffected by the Gatwick incident. Why was a helicopter not sent up to net the drone? That would have solved the problem and hundreds of thousands of people would not have been inconvenienced.

[Baroness Sugg]

I share the noble Lord’s frustration that it was not easier to get this drone out of the sky. There are various different ways of doing that, including physical effects, such as nets, which were available, and there were helicopters on the ground as well. Sadly, nets are successful only at a certain height, as is counter-drone technology. I can assure the noble Lord that it was not for want of resources or effort that this drone was not taken out of the sky. In this case, the drone came and went a number of times and it was not there for any sustained length of time so it could be brought down. Some of the other suggestions, such as birds of prey or bullets, were not possible. Nets were available, but they are successful only at a certain height. I share the noble Lord’s frustration that it was not easier to get the drone down. It came and went a number of times but was not in the vicinity of the airport for a sustained period of time, which would have enabled that to take effect.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank my noble friend for that contribution. Obviously, safety is of paramount importance and continues to be our priority. I will take the opportunity to thank BALPA for its work on this; we are pleased to be able to deliver an extension to the restriction zone. My noble friend is quite right that this is not party political; there is a will on all sides to get this legislation through and to get it right. I look forward to taking it through the House. We will publish the draft Bill shortly and will absolutely welcome noble Lords’ scrutiny of it. I have mentioned that we are already investing in research around counter-drone technology. The Centre for the Protection of National Infrastructure did significant pieces of work on this last year and will continue to do so this year. It will ensure that the advice it gives on counter-drones is available to airports and will give training courses and guidance documents.

However, I agree that we can do more. The noble Baroness is right to say that we are very thankful that no one was harmed in the Gatwick incident, but it has highlighted the importance of ensuring that we have the proper counter-drone technology in place. We are determined to do that and I thank my noble friend for his offer of a financial contribution. As I said, the Government have already invested in this, but I will take that back to the department.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I go back to the question of netting. I cannot see the point in an exclusion zone being widened if the resources are not there to enforce it. We know that these zones are already being breached, as was shown in this latest incident. There are airport workers at Heathrow who believe that a helicopter and a net would have sorted the problem out. The Minister said that it was something to do with height, but I do not understand the logic behind that. Once a helicopter is in the air, it is in the air. When it drops its net, it drops its net to collect. Could she do a bit more homework and ask civil servants to find out why a helicopter and net could not have solved the problem? Let us have a detailed response, please.

[Baroness Sugg]

I can assure the noble Lord that I have certainly done my homework on this. As I explained before, there were nets and helicopters available, but the way that the drone was being used—it was coming into the airport area very quickly and then moving away again—meant that we were not able to bring the drone down in the manner which the noble Lord suggests. The equipment was there, but it could not be used properly because of the way that the drone was being operated. We will continue to invest in research in this area to ensure that we have the best possible methodology available in the future—but, because of the way the drone was being flown, it was not possible to do what the noble Lord suggests.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The drone’s flight was some 14 minutes. I understand that the maximum speed of these drones is about 50 miles per hour; helicopters can travel at 200 miles per hour, so what was the problem? I still think that the Minister is not getting the right answers from her officials.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, there was a huge amount of activity down at Gatwick not only from the Civil Service but from the police, the military and the Home Office, as noble Lords would expect in an incident such as this. Drones move incredibly quickly and this drone was coming in only very briefly, so it was just not possible to put up that mitigation in time to bring the drone down. If it had been there for a significant length of time then that probably would have been possible but, as I have said, the way that the drone was being flown meant that it was just not possible to do that.

One of the aspects that this has highlighted is the need for a proper, layered response to incidents such as this. We have physical mitigations such as nets, which can be launched either from the ground up to a certain height or from a helicopter if at a higher height, but obviously that can be effective only if it is in the vicinity of the drone. The other things that we need are protection and tracing in order to ensure that we are able to see the drone in advance of it arriving into restricted airspace and to trace where it has come from, as well as bringing in the physical effect, which we need to do.

I quite agree that extending the exclusion zone to 30 kilometres would not actually have stopped the drone at Gatwick. We can and have put laws in place, but ultimately this is a crime, so we need to ensure that we have the right penalties, which I think we do; that we have the right laws, which I think we do; that we have the right police powers, which we are bringing forward in legislation; and that we have the right counter-drone technology, where we are investing in research. The counter-drone technology is very complex, and we need to ensure that we get it right from a safety perspective, a privacy perspective and a data perspective. That is a challenge that, following the consultation response, we will work through with the Home Office to ensure that we have absolutely the best counter-drone technology that we can have.

Gatwick Airport

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

Thursday 20th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, two years ago, on 28 February 2017, I raised the existence of signal jamming equipment operational at a distance of 2,000 feet. In reply the then Minister for transport said he would take the issue up with officials, saying:

“We will be raising his specific point with manufacturers”.—[Official Report, 28/2/2017; col. 709.]


What happened? Was it raised with officials? Was it raised with manufacturers and, if so, what were the results of those conversations?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I say, we are working closely with manufacturers on counterdrone technology. That was also something we spoke about in our consultation; we are working closely with the Home Office on both the technological side of counterdrone technology and the physical side.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, we may not be in the blame game, but the noble Lord has actually made a strong statement there about the response of TfL to the boroughs. I reserve my comments until, perhaps, we have had a response from those who almost stand in the dock—and perhaps I can raise my comments on Third Reading.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I apologise if there is any confusion on this issue. Obviously, having amendments to a government amendment can lead to confusion. As I said, we will bring forward a government amendment, taking on board other comments, and we will endeavour to do that as soon as possible.

On Amendment 33, on extending the power to local transport authorities, we have a number of combined authorities with a directly elected mayor which are designed to deliver their strategic transport priorities across their city regions. We support the devolution of powers to authorities when local decision-making will support improved delivery of transport outcomes. Mayoral combined authorities and the Mayor of London provide an appropriate level of democratic accountability and strategic oversight, which individual local authorities do not necessarily have. We have made the decision to devolve certain strategic powers to metro mayors and metro mayors only and, in this case, we do not think that we should extend them to other local transport authorities.

I will move on to the issues involved in Amendment 29. We discussed London councils, TfL and the mayor at length in Committee and I mentioned this in my opening remarks. We welcome the new taskforce which has been set up and is well represented by all these organisations. There is a real will to work together to deliver these rapid charge points. We are encouraged by that and look forward to seeing progress made.

Rail Timetabling

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

Monday 4th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I agree entirely that the railways need to provide a service for the public and not be focused purely on profit-making. On the east coast line, a subject raised by the noble Lord, under public ownership the line contributed less to the taxpayer than it does currently. It is still a successful railway, with 92% customer satisfaction. Recently we set out a way forward through an operator of last resort ahead of the East Coast Partnership, and we think that that will be a success.

On industrial relations, I mentioned earlier the issue around working on rest days which has been a problem as regards training new drivers, which is part of the problem. The inquiry will look at what went wrong, why this has happened and what lessons we need to learn for the future. It will not look directly at industrial relations, but if it turns out that they were one of the causes, the inquiry will highlight that.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, Ministers who mess up normally do the honourable thing and resign. Have there been any conversations at all within Mr Grayling’s ministerial team about the possibility of him going?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I can certainly confirm that there have not been any conversations around that.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I am very sorry that my noble friend and I missed that wonderful dinner, to which I think all noble Lords were invited last night; our invitations must have been lost in the post. The Government’s aim is to develop our infrastructure so that current and future drivers of electric vehicles can locate charging infrastructure that is affordable, efficient, reliable and easily accessible. The amendments, understandably, seek to improve availability and reliability.

Most government-funded charge points started out as being free to access, but payments have been gradually introduced over the years. Taking a payment in exchange for charging is a crucial step in the development of a long-term sustainable business model for charge point operators that will in turn lead to greater choice and improved future reliability of the network. Of course I agree that reliability is a critical issue, but we think that the market is developing to meet consumer expectations about charge point reliability. We welcome the fact that a number of charge point owners currently report on their level of reliability. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned Zap-Map.com, which incorporates a real-time feed that drivers can use to report on their recent charging experiences and report out-of-action charge points. As this market continues to develop, it is clear that operators will want their charge points to be functioning and accessible to attract customers, and indeed to receive payment.

Some operators are already providing information voluntarily, and as the market develops all may do so. However, should the Government need to intervene in this area, powers can be introduced under Clause 11. As currently proposed, this could require charge point operators to make reliability information available in open-source formats, which could be used to improve the consumer experience. Clause 11 also specifically mentions,

“whether the point is in working order”,

and making this information available will help to incentivise charge point operators to maintain working charge points and to ensure that they can be held to account by customers. I agree with the noble Baroness that for the infrastructure to work, the charge points have to work, and people need to feel confident that they will be able to charge their car—so I agree with the intent behind the amendments.

The noble Baroness also proposes an amendment on contactless card payments. Again, we absolutely recognise the importance of having easily available payment options to encourage the uptake of these vehicles. We have seen progress in this area. Since 2017 regulations have been in place for new charge points to ensure that they are available without the need for any form of membership. This applies to all new charge points from last November, and all existing charge points will need to meet that requirement by November this year. In the policy scoping notes contactless payment is one of a number of potential access or payment solutions, but we are not sure about mandating for this in primary legislation, which could risk forcing charge point operators to overhaul their entire network for a specific access method that may not be the preferred solution by drivers or industry, and may well be succeeded by another form of access. We want to consult on that. In advance of introducing any secondary legislation we will consult drivers and operators before proposing a minimum defined access method. If the preferred option is through contactless payment—which, I acknowledge, it may well be, so that people can easily pay for charging—that would be included in the regulations.

Amendment 50, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, rightly seeks to ensure that the Secretary of State has regard to innovation, customer choice and competition when bringing forward regulations under this clause. Those three things should always be at the heart of the Government’s policy-making, and will underpin any regulations brought forward under this, and indeed any other, clause.

As I have said, I agree with the intent behind all the amendments, and I will consider them further.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Before the Minister sits down, Clause 11 refers only to the provision of information. What we want is action. If no action is taken as a result of the provision of information, it is a waste of space. Why cannot some of the amendments be taken away by the Minister to her departmental officials before Report—at least those which are in no way affected by technological development—to see whether it might be possible to accept one or two of them? That would immediately affect people’s ability to secure the service that they expect when they call at one of these charge points.

[Baroness Worthington]

I reiterate that we must at least acknowledge that it is not good enough to have nearly one in 10 of these charge points in the vicinity of this House non-operational. Surely the Government should be doing more to investigate why that is the case and to ensure that regulatory powers are introduced to insist that they are maintained. It is just not good enough. We would not expect that to be allowed in any other form of public infrastructure. We are not asking for it to be in primary legislation, we are asking simply for power to be taken to make regulations to require that they be maintained. Given the Government’s apparent love of these enabling powers, I cannot see why they would not take one to require that the charge points are maintained. They are expensive and people rely on them.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, this is a wide-ranging group of amendments and I shall aim to address all the points raised, so I am afraid that I shall have quite a bit to say.

On permitted development rights and expansion, as the noble Baroness noted, it is already allowed through town and country planning, which allows permitted development rights for one electric vehicle charging point per parking space, public or private. The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, mentioned specific restrictions on that, which were introduced into the permitted development right to protect the environmental amenity of an area—hence the planning permission is needed. However, there is no height limit for charge points installed by or on behalf of local authorities, which are able to consider the impact of a charge point at a particular location, as well as on the safety of road users and pedestrians, and any other local considerations. That is what we want to bear in mind.

In general, the intention of these amendments is an important consideration. Given the change in technologies, it is important that the Government ensure the existing flexibilities and terms of permitted development rights and that they remain fit for purpose—and certainly deregulate where we should. So I shall take the issue away and consider it further with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government before Report.

On permitted development rights in London and TfL, my noble friend Lord Borwick raised the proposal to give TfL or the Mayor of London permitted development rights to install rapid charge points. Again, we agree with the intention behind aspects of this amendment; the installation of charging provision in London is crucial to help to ensure that air quality and climate change targets are met and, despite some excellent progress by local boroughs, many more charge points will be needed. While we recognise TfL’s frustration at not being able to make quick improvements to a road network that it may be responsible for, it is right and proper that it works collaboratively with local boroughs to consider the local democratic process.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Do we know how many of these rapid charge points boroughs have actually been introduced up to now?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Worthington]

The table that has been circulated indicates that, of 103 rapid charge points in London, four have been installed on borough land.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

It that not in fact our case? They are doing nothing.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I think we all agree that insufficient progress has been seen; we absolutely need to take action on that, but we need to consider the local democratic process. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, spelled out very clearly the opinion of London Councils on this, and we want to see TfL and London Councils working in partnership to deliver what we need, ideally without the need for legislative intervention. We are working with TfL, MHCLG and GLA colleagues on this collaborative approach. A new governance framework has been set up, and there is a cross-party subgroup tasked with addressing these specific issues. The mayor is also creating a new electric vehicle infrastructure task force for London, in which the Government have been invited to participate as a member.

These non-legislative solutions have recently been introduced and are designed to ensure that this collaboration happens. I appreciate, however, that my noble friend’s amendment has a time clause in it, which is an interesting consideration. As the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, says, these are slightly dangerous waters, but we will certainly go away ahead of Report to see if there is more we can do to reach an agreement, or to broker a deal, between the local councils and TfL on this important issue. As I say, I think we have good bodies in place now to work on this, but it will require them to work together. We will come back to this after we have taken it further with them. I thank my noble friend for his invitation; it sounds a lovely idea. Perhaps we could do that after we get this Bill through to celebrate.

My noble friend and others raised the issue of rapid chargers on the Parliamentary Estate. As I mentioned at Second Reading, the authorities are currently carrying out a project to fit the underground car park in the Commons with 80 charge points, although, at the moment, they are not planned for our own Lords car park. Though I can reassure noble Lords that I am pushing on this issue and—hot off the press—I hear that the House authorities are still making a decision on whether to take forward the charge points. They are working with the planning and design authority that is installing the charge points in the House of Commons. I hope to come back with some positive progress, along with a timetable, on Report. If we do not see that positive progress, I will be meeting with the Parliamentary Estate authorities to understand why.

On the removal of charge points, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, raised an interesting proposal. On local highways, the authorities obviously have the ability to require the installation of charge points or prohibit their removal. For other public locations, it is an interesting point. I understand the issue she raises: after installation, we do not want to see them rapidly uninstalled. This consideration is best left to the market and the host sites that have installed the infrastructure. In the same way that a supermarket, for example, should not need planning permission to install a charge point, it might be tricky if it then needs planning permission to take it out again. I also have some concerns that it could have an unintended consequence for businesses or host sites, which may be put off installing infrastructure if they would be unable to remove it in the future. But I understand the point that the noble Baroness makes, especially when grants are involved, so I will take that away and consider it further.

I turn to wayleaves and charging infrastructure rights. Wayleaves are sometimes required for rapid charge point installations that require a new connection to the grid or a grid upgrade, where cables need to be laid across third-party land. Currently, the wayleave agreement is voluntary for the third party who owns the land and there is no obligation to accept the wayleave. In cases where an agreement for a wayleave cannot be reached, the Electricity Act 1989 provides the installer with statutory powers on which it can call if no alternative solution, such as changing the cable route, can be found, so a statutory application can be lodged to the BEIS Secretary of State to award the installer a necessary wayleave. These amendments raise an interesting point, which we have not consulted on yet. We have concerns that the amendments as drafted do not allow for the private rights of the owner of any third-party land to be taken into account, or to allow for any potential environmental effects to be considered. Because this involves private land access rights, we think that we need to seek more evidence and consult a wide range of stakeholders. However, I will take the issue away and discuss it further with ministerial colleagues in advance of Report.

On housing issues and the future-proofing of new homes and developments, the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Worthington, are right to highlight the importance of ensuring that new developments include provision for the necessary charging infrastructure. I am pleased that the Government’s National Planning Policy Framework that has recently been consulted on considers the same policy. When developing local plans, it sets out that local authorities must fully consider the inclusion of charge point infrastructure in new developments. The proposed NPPF envisages that applications for developments should be designed to enable charging of plug-in and other ultra low emission vehicles in safe, accessible and convenient locations. It also sets out that, when setting local parking standards for residential and non-residential development, policies should take into account the need to ensure an adequate provision of spaces for charging plug-in and other ultra low emission vehicles. We think that the NPPF is the right place for such changes to be introduced, so that local considerations can be taken into account by local authorities, and therefore we do not think that we should include such provision in the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised an interesting point about smart meters, which I shall take back and consider.

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, suggested the introduction of regulation to ensure that leaseholders are not denied the ability to install charging infrastructure. Of course, where agreement can be reached between leaseholders and the landlord, the charger will be installed, but there may well be scenarios where one or the other will not agree for whatever reason—as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, highlighted—such as on who owns the charger, who is responsible for its maintenance and the cost of the electricity where a communal supply is involved. The amendment raises an interesting point, but we need to ensure that, while leaseholders are not denied the ability to install a charge point, we consider those other issues fully, such as the rights of freeholders and landlords.

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Baroness makes a fair point. The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government is doing a review of the relationship between leaseholders and freeholders, so I shall ask whether that might be an appropriate place to consider this issue. I have heard what the noble Baroness said, and I will take that back.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Given that such a review is going on, could the Minister drop us a note to tell us whether this suggestion will be considered?

[Baroness Sugg]

I certainly will. I will need to go back and discuss whether we can include this suggestion. I am not sure that we will go as far as the noble Baroness would like us to on that, but I will certainly get a conclusion on that and come back to noble Lords.

Finally, on the amendment that would ensure the provision of ducting and precabling infrastructure for new residential and non-residential buildings, in the industrial strategy, published last November, we committed to update building regulations to mandate that all new residential developments must contain the enabling cabling for charge points in homes. That will be an important step in future-proofing new homes and avoiding more costly retrofitting. For non-residential buildings, the NPPF will ensure that local authorities consider the need for adequate charging provision in developing their local plans. Before Report we will consider whether that is sufficient or whether we can go further.

Given these reassurances, I hope that the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, spoke about space at major fuel retailers. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is right that they often have hundreds of car parking spaces, and that is where we envisage that the charging will happen. The department has no plans to look at purchasing land around such locations. We think that the regulations would need to exclude locations where it is not possible or sensible to provide electric vehicle infrastructure, as we have set out in the policy scoping notes. Of course, space is an important consideration, which is partly why we have identified major fuel retailers as the right place to start.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I am sorry to go back to car parks, but when I travel on motorways I often find the car parks are full. They cannot be used for both parking and for people to put their vehicles on them to charge. In certain conditions, there may simply be insufficient spaces on the motorways because the car parks are heavily used.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Equally, I was asking at the dinner last night about the cost of these chargers. Rapid chargers are £40,000 a piece; we are talking a lot of money. It may be that part of the provision will not be the rapid chargers.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I think that space will be limited at some of these destinations, but they have been identified as the ideal place to start putting in this infrastructure, which is what we are doing. This is the start of the process. We will look at how effective it is, how many charge points are put in and whether they are rapid charge points.

On whether it may be appropriate to require the installation of charging facilities in future at other locations such as supermarkets, railway stations and private and public parking facilities, the vast majority of electric vehicle drivers choose to charge their cars at home at night, but we need appropriate and adequate provision of public charging if we are to see as many electric vehicles as we want in the coming years. However, we do not believe that regulating for provision will always be the right approach. It is a powerful tool, but other levers can be used. We have many grant schemes and policy measures to support the installation of charge points at a range of locations, including many of those listed in the amendment. For example, we have already committed to providing greater emphasis on electric charging at rail stations in our franchising process. Through a train station scheme, Plugged-in Places and the public sector estate scheme, more than 7,000 charge points have been funded in a wide range of locations. Planning policy—in particular, the NPPF— is proving to be an important tool in leveraging infrastructure, future-proofing new developments and ensuring that local authorities consider charge points in their plans.

Proposed changes to the NPPF would require that when local parking standards are set policies should always consider the need for adequate provision for charging EVs. The London Plan is a good example of where there has been a big impact and where the NPPF has encouraged local authorities to take an ambitious approach. In the London Plan, the GLA mandates that developments in all parts of London ensure that for every five spaces one must have an active charge point and one must have enabling cabling for future use to encourage the uptake of EVs.

We have also introduced enhanced capital allowances, a tax relief for companies to support the development and installation of recharging equipment. The first-year allowance of 100% allows businesses to deduct charge point investments from their pre-tax profits.

Specifically on Amendment 73, we have also already announced that we will update building regulations to require enabling cabling in all new residential housing developments, as we discussed earlier. In addition, we offer grant funding for private facilities, through our workplace charging scheme, to support installation; it is working particularly well for electric fleets. As a result of these measures, and because of the opportunities in this new market, we are seeing the private sector taking the lead and chargers are going in at destinations including car parks and supermarkets. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, gave the excellent example of going to Waitrose because it has a charge point. We are seeing growing numbers of EV drivers using such shops in order to use the charge point.

So we are making good progress on electric vehicle charging points; we have seen 500 charge point connectors installed in the country in just the last 30 days. A lot of companies and destinations throughout the country have ambitious plans to install charging infrastructure. Chargemaster is investing heavily in providing EV charge points at key strategic locations, such as hotels, sports clubs and shopping centres and is planning an additional 2,000 units. Asda has charging facilities at more than 100 of its stores. Even the National Trust is installing charge points at places such as Hadrian’s Wall and the Giant’s Causeway. Health clubs and all sorts of other places are doing it too. So we think that the market is working here. My ministerial colleagues meet regularly with the charge point industry—although not at last night’s dinner—and they are confident that we are making progress in that space.

One of the main reasons for the decisions of major fuel retailers is range anxiety, as we have discussed previously. Of course, we need sufficient charging infrastructure on our motorways and major roads so that people will travel longer distances. When we consulted on the Bill, we determined that it was most appropriate to mandate provision at those sites that are crucial in reducing range anxiety. We believe that the Government should regulate only where there is a specific need and not where we are confident that market forces will deliver the necessary infrastructure to meet the needs of EV drivers. Again, I heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said on that.

Amendment 75 is an interesting amendment to enable metro mayors to designate premises under Clause 10, which would allow them to use powers in their local area at a timetable of their choosing. In our conversations with metro mayors it was a priority ask of theirs. As the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, cities and regions play a hugely important role in local environmental strategies and dealing with the air quality challenges they face. Of course, charging infrastructure will need to be part of these strategies. There are some considerations around such an amendment and we need to give it due care and attention. We want to ensure that any regulations or requirements that are introduced receive the proper scrutiny of Parliament. We will be defining large fuel retailers and setting out appropriate circumstances for charge point installation in future regulations. Of course, those regulations will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny; we want to ensure that any powers afforded to mayors or combined authorities in this area can only be exercised within those clear definitions and a defined remit.

Given that these powers are not UK-wide but region-specific there is a possibility that imposing this requirement could encourage the relocation of petrol stations outside of the mayoral area should the requirement be disproportionate. As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, we also need to make sure that it will not mean that areas that do not have metro mayors lose out. As noble Lords will be aware, metro mayors have different devolution deals—that is also something we will need to consider further. We will also need to consider others in the area with transport responsibilities, such as boroughs and local highways authorities, but we think there is merit in considering aspects of this approach. We would not want it to be wider in scope than the locations as currently defined in Clause 10— I was pleased to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, mention that. Local authorities have voiced concern about powers being widened to include locations managed by them, but I commit to taking this issue away and considering it before Report. On that basis, I hope the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I acknowledge this as a particularly excellent group of amendments. These points are all key priorities that will need to be consulted on before any regulations are brought forward. As proposed in Amendments 63 and 64, it is important that the Government can specify the type of charge points being installed in large fuel retailers or service areas. It is already the Government’s intention, as is made clear in the policy scoping notes, that any regulations under Clause 10 would include details of what provision of electric vehicle infrastructure will be required to ensure that the needs of users are met, and to deliver a quick and hassle-free charging experience, similar to refuelling conventional cars today.

This would include: specifying the level of charging infrastructure, most likely to be measured by number of charge points or hydrogen refuelling points; the specification for that infrastructure, such as the minimum power outputs and the connectors of charge points—I entirely agree that we want to avoid multiple chargers, and another VHS/Betamax situation—and any other operational requirements, such as the opening hours of the charge point. Decisions on those will not be taken by the market; they will be set by regulations—but they will be informed by consultation both with the market and with users of vehicles, to ensure that we get it right.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Is the Minister saying that the motorway service station provider will be told the proportion between one form of equipment and another?

[Baroness Sugg]

I missed that last point: the motorway service station provider will be told what?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The kind of equipment, whether three-hour, 20 minutes, 12-hour or whatever, to install.

Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 22nd March 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I did not hear an answer from the Minister to my question about the number of accidents.

[Baroness Sugg]

I apologise to the noble Lord for not addressing that point. We do have some figures, which will be discussed on the next amendment on safety, but I will look into the issue in detail and write to all noble Lords.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Is there any chance that we could have those figures before we get into the next amendment? The Minister’s reply will be at the end of the debate and we may not have an opportunity to hear them otherwise.

[Baroness Sugg]

I am afraid that we do not have the detailed figures on trailer accidents ahead of the next discussion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Have I missed something? Has an estimate been made of what the registration fees are going to be?

[Baroness Sugg]

We do not have an exact estimate for the registration of trailers at the moment, although obviously we will aim to keep the fees to a minimum and on a cost-recovery basis. We will use our existing systems to issue them.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Could we be given some idea of what the fees will be by Report? The figures will certainly influence the debate on smaller trailers.

[Baroness Sugg]

We will do our best. We have examples of existing similar schemes and we are talking about figures in the area of £10 or £20. We do not have fixed rates because we do not yet know the extent of the registration scheme, and therefore how many marks will need to be issued. However, I will produce as many details as I can and write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Finally, and more broadly on the same issue, the registration scheme will be a one-off registration, will it not? It will not be an annual registration scheme.

[Baroness Sugg]

It will be a one-off registration scheme unless the trailer is sold or subject to change of use. At that point the change of ownership would need to be registered. However, it will not be done on an annual basis.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

So effectively the trailer will have a form of log book. A log book is used to register changes of ownership.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

Yes, it would follow the same information that is contained in that log book, but in order to do the full registration, when ownership is changed it would have to go through the DVSA system so that we were informed of that and could issue the permit.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The reason I am trying to get these things on the record is that they will influence the debate on smaller trailer units.

[Baroness Sugg]

I fully understand that and will send the noble Lord more details on it. To go back to the fee, as I said, it is very difficult to determine the exact cost but I understand that it is an important consideration. We are confident that the fee will be significantly less than the current vehicle registration fee, for example, which is £55, but we are not able to provide any more detail on that at this time. That also goes towards trying to ensure that we get the right balance when deciding which trailers need to be registered and which do not, why we have not included 750 kilogram trailers and why we do not think this should be mandatory for domestic use—it is a not insignificant cost for a family going on a camping holiday once a year.

I hope I have explained why, in this case, the legislation will not go unused, despite whatever agreement we reach with the European Union, in the case of either the permit scheme, which will be used for existing and future schemes with other countries, or the trailer registration scheme, which will come into effect anyway because of the earlier convention. In the light of that, I hope that this discussion has reassured the noble Lord to the extent that he feels able to withdraw his amendment.

Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 13th March 2018 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sugg]

I will try my best, although I may not be as clear as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. As I said, the existing Community arrangement is currently only for EU members and EEA members. When we leave the EU, we will not be either of those. What is suggested is one option, but there may well be an equally satisfactory option, such as an unlimited permit system or, as I said, mutual recognition of operators’ licences. We want to be able to keep those options open and not to be sent down the road of agreeing to the Community licence. There is no reason why a permit that replaces the Community licence could not provide the same level of access as exists currently. That could well be our negotiation objective.

On the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, I take the opportunity to reassure him that of course the Secretary of State will take all reasonable steps to meet the demand for permits from UK hauliers. We regularly meet industry to understand its requirements and priorities, which will be reflected in our detailed negotiations with the European Union. While the amendment would not tie our hands in the negotiation, I hope that what I have said gives the noble Lord confidence that it is not necessary to include this aim in the Bill.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I would like to press the question of how these will be allocated. Clause 2(2) says:

“The methods that may be specified under subsection (1)(d) include random selection and first come, first served”.


What does “random selection” mean? How can we randomly select? Is it like a lottery? What about “first come, first served”? Is it a postal arrangement? We need more detail. I do not like this sentence being in the Bill and I think that it should be removed. If you go into negotiations with that in the Bill and a civil servant in Europe reads it, I think that I would know what to do in those negotiations.

[Baroness Sugg]

I understand the noble Lord’s concern. Later, we will discuss Amendment 8, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, which addresses these issues. There is an explanation and, with the noble Lord’s permission, we will address it then.

The amendments on a sunset clause suggest that, should recognition of Community licences be secured as part of our negotiations, Clauses 1 to 3 should cease to have effect. I understand the intention and I agree that we do not wish to create delegated powers if they are not going to be used at any point in the future in relation to EU exit, but I would like to set out why this Bill has a wider application than just to our road haulage access with the EU. It should also apply to the European Conference of Ministers of Transport multilateral permit scheme and our bilateral agreements with non-EU countries.

While these non-EU agreements have, until now, been dealt with under administrative powers, now that we are introducing this Bill we think that it is important that those agreements are brought in scope, so that there is compliance and consistency in the administration, allocation and enforcement of permits with whatever agreement we reach with the European Union. There would be problems with having different legislation covering similar permit schemes. We are keen to ensure that UK hauliers can use one online system to apply and get permits for the EU as well as non-EU countries, as that would reduce burdens on them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Let us take the Mont Blanc or the Brenner Pass. A truck turns up with a permit which is handed over in the office. Will there be some sort of IT connection between that customs post on the Brenner with a central data point in the United Kingdom, so that it can check whether it is a valid or a forged permit? If so, we do not need particularly sophisticated documentation, because all along the line there will be an IT check on what is seen abroad. Can the Minister give us that assurance?

[Baroness Sugg]

I understand the noble Lord’s point. Sadly, I cannot speak for what will happen in the EU until we have concluded the negotiations. Within the UK, that is absolutely the idea: there would be a system to check on these permits. The noble Lord makes a very good point: we will seek to minimise corruption in future, but that will be subject to negotiations.

[Baroness Sugg]

Absolutely. I agree with the noble Lord that that has happened in the past. We are working with the DVSA on how to better enforce compliance, on both this and future licensing systems, and we will continue to do so.

My noble friend Lord Moynihan mentioned the tripartite agreement between the UK, France and Ireland. We have been looking at how best to ensure that the racing industry is not affected by this Bill and is protected. However, I will take away what he said and will look at it.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Can I ask another question? I am sorry to keep coming back, but I will try to get all my questions out of the way at the beginning. What about the transfer of permits? Will there be some sort of mechanism to ensure that one haulier cannot sell a permit to another haulier? Perhaps we could have that assurance.

[Baroness Sugg]

I am afraid that until we know the exact system of the permits, we will not be able to give the noble Lord that assurance. Obviously, we need to avoid there being a false market for these permits. We will look at how permits are allocated and if they are limited in any way, which we hope they will not be, we will certainly consider how to avoid that. Again, the allocation system should make sure that additional permits are not allocated to people who are not using them. It is certainly something we will consider.

I hope I have addressed the need for this legislation, regardless of the agreement reached with the EU. I understand the sentiments of noble Lords in proposing these amendments and welcome the discussion it has enabled. However, as I said, we do not believe that the Community licence system is the only way to proceed and therefore do not think the Bill is an appropriate place to set out that negotiation objective. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords again for their contributions to this debate. I assure noble Lords that this provision is not intended to allow these methods to be the only approach used, or for these to be used without the use of other criteria. We are in the process of negotiating with the EU on how UK hauliers will operate in the EU 27 after our withdrawal. As I said, we are confident we will secure an agreement which allows them to operate without restrictions on market access. If we do agree a permit system, “no restrictions” would mean unlimited permits. The exact nature of what will be in the permits will be down to the international agreement with the EU. We do not have details of that yet, but I imagine that it would follow the international information which is included on them. I will take back the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I will look in detail in Hansard about what the exact restrictions on that permit are. I am not sure that we would repeat them in a future system.

In including this, we are attempting to be prudent in ensuring that the industry would be able to continue to operate under a range of different outcomes. It may be that, depending on our future partnership agreement, in some circumstances, the demand for permits may exceed the available number. As I said, that is not the aim of negotiations or what we are hoping for, but we have a duty to plan for that, as a contingency.

One of those outcomes could see the permit scheme we agree involving a set quota of permits. The Bill allows us to set criteria to allocate those permits, should we need to. The detail of the criteria will be setout in regulations and guidance. We have set out some examples in the scoping documents. In such a case, criteria such as the economic benefit the permit would bring would be reflected. Of course, a more sensible way of allocating permits would be the best outcome. However, if the use of those criteria—set out in the regulations—was not sufficient to balance demand versus supply, we may need to apply a further method such as random allocation to decide between applicants. For example, if we were able to clearly allocate 90% of applications because of the economic case, we could then use a first come, first served basis or random allocation to allocate the other 10%. As I said, and as noble Lords have made clear, we want to avoid a system with a limited number of permits, but we need the ability to allocate them should we find ourselves in the unfortunate situation of their being limited.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Why does that sentence have to be in the Bill?

[Baroness Sugg]

I was coming on to that. It might be appropriate and fairer to combine a number of criteria and approaches to different types of permits. For many of our current permit schemes with third-party countries, such as Morocco and Ukraine, the number of permits is significantly greater than the take-up and this is not expected to change. In these circumstances, the optimal approach is first come, first served, which we use at the moment.

It would of course still be possible for the Government to bring forward a proposal to use these specific approaches for the EU by putting them in regulations alongside other criteria and methods. As I said, we discussed that further in the policy scoping note.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I am sorry. The transmission on the audio equipment was very bad when you were answering the question I asked. It was impossible to hear because the audio went wrong, so I repeat my question: if that sentence were not in the Bill, would it make any difference? Why not just remove it?

[Baroness Sugg]

As I said, we may use that system for current non-EU agreements and agreements with third countries, which we discussed before. That is the system we currently use because we have an excess of permits to demand. That could be on a random basis or on a first come, first served basis.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

That did not answer my question.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Before the Minister answers, can I ask her to take this away and discuss it in the department? I think she may get different advice when there has been a full discussion.

[Baroness Sugg]

I absolutely agree that we will need to put criteria in place in the unfortunate situation of there not being enough permits to go round. Of course we would do that; I hope I explained earlier that this would give us the ability to allocate the remainder of the permits if those criteria could not fairly decide what the allocations should be.

I entirely understand that noble Lords are concerned that the methods of allocation appear somewhat arbitrary when viewed in isolation. The intention is that when we bring forward the regulations—which will have all the criteria set out in the policy scoping notes—the industry will see that there is an objective and equitable approach. The option of including these criteria as part of the approach is an important contingency.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Can I add to that intervention? I can give the Minister another criterion. What about regional considerations, which might well be in our favour?

[Baroness Sugg]

The reason we put these two methods in the Bill and left other criteria and approaches for the regulations is based on legal advice. Perhaps the Committee would allow me to set it out.

Although there is no specific reference to the exercise of discretion in the Bill, all regulation-making powers and the regulations state that the Secretary of State “may make provision”, which obviously involves the exercise of discretion. Decisions on the allocation of permits will involve an element of discretion in both setting the criteria and applying them to determine which operator gets a permit. Discretion in the Secretary of State’s decision must be in accordance with public law principles, so it must be lawful, rational and procedurally fair, and decisions may be challenged by way of judicial review where they do not comply with those principles.

To be clear that the Secretary of State is able in certain circumstances to allow the use of first come, first served or random allocation, they have been included in the Bill. Where the criteria set out in regulations and guidance are not sufficient to allocate all the permits, the Secretary of State is able to use that discretion to allocate permits on a first come, first served basis. It is best included in the Bill in accordance with public law principles.

I understand the noble Lord’s point. We have had extensive discussion on this. It is based on very clear legal advice that if we were not to include it, we could not use it at any point. Although we do not want to use it for the allocation of permits, because I entirely agree that that would not be fair, I will take it back and discuss it further with the legal team to clarify. I understand why it standing alone in the Bill causes concern.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

I am afraid that the answer to that is that it is all subject to the negotiations. The noble Lord asked earlier whether we were doing this on an EU-wide or bilateral basis. We think that an EU-wide basis is the simplest way. Of course, we want to ensure that enough permits are allocated to countries, for example Northern Ireland and France, which we currently have a lot of dealings with. I go back to the point that we are hoping we will not need a permit system, but if we do it will be unlimited and allocation would therefore not be an issue. If it is limited, which it may be, then if the number of UK permits is limited, how the European Commission allocates them will be down to negotiation.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

It is very important that we do not have to negotiate bilaterally because we could be held to ransom by some of the northern European states, whereas others might be more generous. If we cannot get through France, Belgium or Holland, what is the point of them in the states lower down?

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Lord is quite right. We think it is best to negotiate this as an EU-wide agreement. Bilateral agreements remain an option should we need them, but we very much hope that we do not.

[Baroness Sugg]

Our current agreement with Ukraine is negotiated through the EU. I believe that Ukraine has an unlimited number of permits. I will go back and look at specific examples. Most of these negotiations are done with the EU as a bloc, as I say, not bilaterally.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Surely, the position is that if you are carrying your own goods it will come under one quota system and there should be no restriction whatever. If you are carrying other people’s goods, there might be a restriction. We should have that in mind when we negotiate.

[Baroness Sugg]

I agree, as I do with the noble Lord’s point on using tonnage within the negotiations, which I will pass on.

I will explain to noble Lords how the regulation of foreign hauliers is being handled in legislation. It is currently carried out under the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995, which requires any operator, whether based in Great Britain or abroad, to carry a Great Britain operator’s licence, failure to do so being an offence subject to a level 5 fine on summary conviction. However, EU hauliers are currently exempt from carrying a GB operator’s licence because they carry a Community licence under EU law.

If EU community licences are no longer recognised when we leave the EU, we will remove the exemption for EU hauliers and regulate their access to the UK in the same way that we regulate access for non-EU hauliers. Obviously, how we do that will be subject to negotiations; again, I make the point that we hope we will not need to do this because of the open access. We will do that by setting out the conditions agreed in the international agreement concluded with each country or with the EU, including whether a permit is required.

The recognition of EU Community licences in Great Britain will be removed using the power to correct deficiencies arising from the UK’s withdrawal from the EU under Clause 7 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, which, as noble Lords know, we discussed in detail last night. When that comes into force, it will enable the Government to correct EU retained law and UK legislation where reciprocal arrangements between the UK and EU, such as the recognition of Community licences, no longer exist. The new conditions—if any are agreed in negotiations—placed on EU hauliers, including carrying a permit, may then be put in place by using existing powers under the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995, if the Government consider that this is required. The same approach will be taken in Northern Ireland legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I am sorry to keep getting up, but it is not just about your own goods. Under the arrangements that I remember, it was own goods, works of art, fresh fruit and veg and exhibition goods. All that I am arguing is that it might be possible to widen those descriptions in the event that we get ourselves into difficulties.

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Lord makes a valid point. I will have to go back and look at that in detail and come back to the Committee in writing.

As was covered earlier when we were discussing the reporting requirements, I agree that we must consider the impacts of leaving the EU on the haulage sector. That should cover both UK and foreign hauliers. We need to come up with a form of reporting on this; I do not believe it needs to be in the Bill, but I will consider that and come back with a proposal ahead of Report. Once again, I welcome the discussion that this amendment has enabled, and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment at this stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I am flying blind now—I should really know the answer to this question. When a British haulier travels in France now, I presume they pay a fee on the motorway. French motorways are very expensive. When a French haulier arrives in the United Kingdom, do they pay any charges for the use of our roads? I think not. If that is the case then we might like to raise this issue if we have any trouble with the French—particularly with the hauliers—in the course of the negotiations. It might not only be France; it might be that some other countries in Europe like to charge for the use of their motorways, such as the Italians, and I am sure that there are others as well. The Swiss get their share too—whenever I go through Switzerland they take me for a ride for 40 francs for my car alone.

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank the noble Lord for that intervention. UK hauliers will pay a charge on a toll road in France in the same way as anyone else.

We are looking into the HGV levy and how to use it better. It may be a method of addressing this issue and I will certainly consider that. I think there is still a toll road on the M6, so obviously that has happened in one case in the UK. However, there are not currently plans for the Government to introduce tolling systems.

On the types of permits, which the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, raised, there will be many options, including, but not limited to, single journey, annual bilateral—ECMT have both of those—and annual multilateral. Exactly what permits we have will be subject to negotiations.

Returning to the HGV levy, foreign hauliers currently pay the levy and so make a contribution to the roads, but, as I said, we are looking at that in detail and I shall send noble Lords more information on it.

We have aimed for the clause to be clear on what fees may be charged for, which allows us to consolidate all the regulations on existing permit fees in one place rather than them being split across a number of regulations. This will give greater clarity to operators and hopefully will be simpler to follow and allow better scrutiny for Parliament.

We think we need to charge a small application fee to recover the cost of processing the application—that will be payable by all applicants—and an issuing fee to recover the administrative costs of issuing the permit will then be payable by successful applicants only. There should not be a single fee, either for application or issuing, because unsuccessful applicants would bear some of the cost for issuing permits or vice versa. Hauliers should pay for what they use rather than paying the same costs irrespective of whether or not they have a permit—should they be needed, which we all hope they will not.

We want to introduce separate application and issuing fees. There is a precedent within the haulage sector for charging fees in this way as its operator licensing regime has both the application and issuing fees made in the regulations under the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995.

I apologise because at this stage I am not able to provide the Committee with specific figures of what the fees for permits will be. It will depend on the number and types of permits required by hauliers, which journeys are exempt and the cost of administering a permits scheme—if there is a permit scheme, which of course will be subject to the negotiations. We want to keep fees as low as possible and in the region of the existing permit fees. The noble Baroness referred to a few examples. The annual ECMT permit which allows any numbers of journeys costs around £133 and a single journey bilateral permit costs £8. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, pointed out, we need to take into account how that will affect small and medium-sized hauliers.

On the capability for the checking of these permits within the UK, there will obviously be a need, should we have a permit system, for them to be checked. As part of the spending statement today, the DfT has received £75.8 million to deliver its EU exit programme. That will include reconfiguring DVSA and looking at that in detail. Again—I apologise for repeating myself—until we know the outcome of the negotiations we are not going to know by how much the capability of DVSA needs to increase and we will have to wait to see the exact costs.

The DfT is working with the Treasury to determine the appropriate level of fees. This will be included in the regulations to allow scrutiny by Parliament. As I say, we are doing everything we can to keep the cost low. It is a key consideration for UK hauliers and we are working closely with them as these plans develop. We will be working closely with small and medium-sized enterprises as well in order to keep these costs as low as possible. I hope that explanation demonstrates why we have a fees clause in the Bill and exactly what we will be using it for. I hope that the noble Baroness will agree that the clause should stand part of the Bill.

Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 27th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

I believe that to be the case, and that therefore the Bill will not affect safety, but I will clarify that and write to my noble friend.

My noble friend Lord Attlee asked about penalty drafting within the Bill. We have drawn up the penalty levels from the original 1975 legislation so the offences are consistent with that. I am told that Clause 8 puts the offence in respect of a permit scheme in the Bill along with the penalties, which are summary only. Clause 17 enables regulations to be made which include the offences and penalties. Clause 17(6) restricts those regulations to include summary offences only, but perhaps I can write to my noble friend further on that.

On Ireland, the noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Whitty, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, all rightly highlighted the importance of ensuring that we get the legislation right for the island of Ireland, and I should like to say a few more words about that. The Bill does not create a permit regime or a hard border on the island of Ireland. Again, the Government are committed to ensuring that there is no hard border. We want trade and everyday movements over the land border to continue as they do now. Half of the imports and exports by road are to and from Ireland and 89% of this trade is going between Northern Ireland and Ireland. There is no history of restrictions on road haulage, and that must remain the case.

To make clear the commitment not to create a hard border on the island of Ireland, we included Clause 1 explicitly to provide that permit regulations may not apply to journeys on the island of Ireland unless there is an agreement on the provision of permits between the UK Government and Irish Governments. To reiterate, trailers travelling between the UK and Ireland will not need to be registered. I very much agree that this is an important issue and something we need to keep in mind as the Bill progresses.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and many other noble Lords mentioned borders. The provision of a permit scheme, whatever its detailed design, is intended precisely to ensure that there will be no delays for UK hauliers at our borders or any other borders in relation to their permission to travel. The haulage permits part of the Bill relates to UK hauliers, but, as noble Lords mentioned, EU hauliers also benefit from hauling to and from the UK. The DVSA already carries out checks on vehicle operating standards on our road network rather than at the borders and we would expect that to continue and include checks for permits if those are required as part of the deal with the EU.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised an interesting point on corruption. It is certainly something we must avoid. I will make sure that I am fully briefed on previous issues with the system ahead of Committee so that we can avoid them.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Perhaps I may make a suggestion: that the department bring in operators who were operating in the 1960s and 1970s. There will be some around and they will remember what happened.

[Baroness Sugg]

If we can track them down, we will certainly get them in. I thank the noble Lord for that suggestion.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Debate between Baroness Sugg and Lord Campbell-Savours

2nd reading (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 20th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, this Bill is an important piece of the Government’s broad programme of work to ensure that the UK continues researching, developing, manufacturing and deploying innovation in order to harness improvements in vehicle technology. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I think it is fair to say that there is more concern from noble Lords on the measures related to automated vehicles than electric ones, so I will begin by addressing those.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, and my noble friend Lord Lucas raised the question of legitimate handover. Transferring control of an automated vehicle from a human driver to the automated system will, of course, require a handover process which ensures that the vehicle is always under the control of either the driver or the automated system. We envisage that vehicle manufacturers will design that system so that it provides prompts to the driver, making them aware when it is legitimate for them to hand over control. We will need to ensure that a driver does not undertake a non-legitimate handover and tries to force the vehicle to take control when it is inappropriate or operate the automated system when it is not designed to be operated. If they do so, they may ultimately be liable for the consequences of those actions.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, my noble friend Lord Lucas, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and many other noble Lords raised the complex issue of software. It is not the policy intent or function of the Bill to provide the regulatory framework for safety and security standards of the software. That is being developed with international standards at the level of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe and, domestically, as part of our ongoing regulatory programme. We are playing a key part in the United Nations Economic Commission and chair a number of its committees. Based on discussions with manufacturers, we expect that they will inform the owners of cars when a safety update to the vehicle software is needed. However, the overwhelming majority of these updates will be made automatically. The wording in the Bill places the onus on the manufacturer to communicate effectively about the need to install updates, but it is a complicated issue. As and when software updates are developed further, we will need to ensure that there is clear guidance on this for both manufacturers and vehicle owners so that it is clear where the responsibilities lie.

There are several factors which could influence the reason why a collision occurred. At this stage, we are keeping the process of determining liability as it is now, with the courts ultimately making judgments based on the facts. Under our proposals, the insurers will compensate the victim and be able to recover from the liable party, which could include the manufacturer or any other party. The three issues of legitimate handover, software and liability are examples of how complicated and complex this area is. I look forward to getting into the detail of it in Committee.

My noble friend Lord Goschen, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and other noble Lords raised the issue of ethics. There are many important questions to be asked about ethics when driving. One of these is how drivers respond when a collision appears unavoidable. Right now, we expect drivers to do the best they can. Given that, as many noble Lords have highlighted, the majority of road collisions involve some form of human error, the advent of automation promises to reduce the number of unavoidable collisions. However, it raises additional question about ethics. As my noble friend Lord Attlee highlighted, with automation we can avoid the risks of novice drivers or someone driving impaired through drink, drugs or tiredness, but reduction is not elimination and at some point automated vehicles will be involved in unavoidable collisions.

We expect the automated vehicle will be able to identify where there is a pedestrian present but may well not be able to identify any more details around the pedestrian’s age or gender. We do not yet know about these details. When faced with such a collision, we imagine that the automated vehicle will be programmed to maximise safety, but, again, this is still being developed. We must address these issues publicly and transparently. Ethical issues were an important focus of the Lords Science and Technology Committee’s report, which calls for further government-commissioned social research. We are taking forward several actions from that report to help in that discussion.

My noble friend Lord Goschen also asked about the wider regulatory framework. I spoke about the Law Commission in my opening remarks. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, also mentioned that. I will give a bit more detail on that which may address some of the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. The Law Commission is undertaking a three-year programme to review the regulatory framework for road-based automated vehicles with a view to enable their safe deployment. Its task is to provide recommendations for a legal framework which can remain effective in the face of vehicles that may no longer require a human driver, and its work will be part of a national conversation on this important future technology. The commission is likely to consider how automated vehicles could fit within the existing regulation of public transport frameworks and look at on-demand passenger transport provision, a point raised by my noble friend Lord Attlee. Again, where ethical considerations are relevant, the Law Commission will highlight the choices which need to be made regulation-wise. It will avoid judging what may or may not be desirable ethical outcomes but will set out possible approaches to promote consistency and transparency. The review is being undertaken to explore the law relating to the deployment of automated vehicles in the United Kingdom and will consider changes necessary to provide a robust and future-proof legal framework to support the deployment of the vehicles. It will also look at areas such as civil and criminal liability frameworks as they apply in the context of automated vehicles, product liability, sellers’ liability, the law of negligence and criminal sanctions et cetera.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked what data will be available from automated vehicles. My noble friend Lord Attlee highlighted the importance of ensuring that this data is available to all those who need it. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, rightly raised concerns about the safety of sharing this data from automated vehicles. These vehicles will generate a huge amount of data during their day-to-day operation. How this data is shared, and with whom, will have an impact on an individual’s privacy. This, of course, is an issue which the Government take very seriously. It is expected that the data recorders, like most new vehicle technologies, will be regulated at an international level. The international debate on what data needs to be collected beyond who or what was in control of the automated vehicle still needs to take place. As I said, we are actively engaged in the relevant discussions on that at the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe. We have also begun speaking to relevant parts of the industry to build our understanding of who will need to access the data, how it should be shared and how to manage concerns over privacy. We will continue this engagement as the technology develops. As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, pointed out, who actually owns that technology is an important question too.

Many noble Lords raised the issue of standards. I take this opportunity to reassure the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, and indeed all noble Lords, that the Government take very seriously the approval process which ensures that all vehicles on our roads are safe for use. As my noble friend Lord Attlee pointed out, the Government already have the power to make regulations under the Road Traffic Act 1988, which could be used for automated and electric vehicles, but we certainly anticipate the need to legislate further to safely facilitate the deployment of automated vehicles. It is too early to legislate for standards at this time. As many noble Lords have pointed out, the development of automated vehicles is in its infancy and legislating too early or unilaterally may hinder our development of the technology and constrain our ability to steer consensus on international standards.

On additional regulation-making powers to cover automated vehicles as suggested by my noble friends Lord Borwick and Lord Lucas, that would indeed allow more flexibility in the future and potentially future-proof this legislation. I am used to being much more defensive when I am asking for Secretary of State powers, so I am very happy to take that suggestion away and consider it further ahead of Committee.

The definitions of “monitoring” and “safely” were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, and my noble friends Lord Selborne and Lord Borwick. It is, of course, imperative that we get these words right and that we do our best to avoid complex legal arguments in the future. I will take that issue away for consideration. I am very happy to meet noble Lords to discuss this further ahead of Committee, but look forward to discussing it further then.

My noble friend Lord Lucas makes another convincing case for automated vehicles on rail lines. I was very interested to discuss this issue with him recently and look forward to discussing it further as plans develop.

I turn to electric vehicles and the electricity system. The noble Lord, Lord Birt, and several other noble Lords mentioned managing loads on the system. Of course, more electric vehicles on our roads means that we will need more electricity to power them. Unmanaged, this could add to the pressure on power generation in the grid. However, the measures in the Bill are designed to allow us to manage future demand and control the cost to customers. The national grid predicts only a 10% increase in demand by 2040 from electric vehicles, which is around 6 gigawatts, and is confident that it can cope. In July 2017, the Government launched their smart plan which set out how the system, including new sources of demand from electric vehicles, can be managed more efficiently. The measures in the Bill are designed to relieve the pressure on the grid from electric vehicles charging during peak time. When drivers arrive home in the evening, they will most likely need their car to be charged only for when they leave in the morning. It is not necessary for this charging to take place during the evening peak time. Ideally, it will be shifted to the early hour off-peak times.

As my noble friend Lord Attlee highlighted, smart charging will encourage electric vehicle users to charge their cars at a time when it is most beneficial for both them and the energy system. This should be cheaper for consumers as well as reducing peak loads on the energy system. This is an important area, and I look forward to finding the YouTube clip illustrating this mentioned by my noble friend Lord Goschen. The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, made a compelling case for smart charging. Clause 3 contains powers to make new charge points capable of monitoring energy consumption and transmitting that data. Clause 12 contains the power to require this data to be sent and made available to relevant third parties, so there is a lot in the Bill on smart charging, but again I look forward to discussing that further.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked about freight. We want all road vehicles, not just cars, to be zero-emission vehicles. Personal use cars are perhaps more developed than haulage vehicles in this regard, but this is a key area which we want to support. We have funded £20 million-worth of innovation trials that have put around 500 low-emission vehicles into UK fleets of companies such as Waitrose, DHL and UPS. That funding has included supporting infrastructure. The measures in the Bill cover electric batteries and hydrogen fuel cell trucks as well as cars, but it will be interesting to see whether we can do more on that.

The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, spoke about the importance of extending the availability of charge points, as did many other noble Lords. The Bill provides powers to require the installation of public charging points only at motorway service areas and large fuel retailers. The idea behind that is that these strategic locations are particularly important to address anxiety about range for drivers on longer journeys. However, it is clear that we will need many more charging points across the UK in the future. The recent Budget committed us to place greater emphasis on locating charge points at rail stations. We have enhanced capital allowances to offer tax relief for companies to install recharging equipment. Noble Lords also mentioned golf clubs, which is a very good idea. We are looking at charge points being installed at supermarkets, hotels and retail centres. We shall consider adding the wider provision of charge points to the Bill but, as I said, currently the focus is just on the large fuel retailers.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, and other noble Lords pointed out, planning policy is an important tool in encouraging both residential and non-residential developments to bring charge point infrastructure into their thinking. Local planning policies are guided by the National Planning Policy Framework, which stipulates that developments should, where practical, incorporate charging facilities. In the Budget we announced additional initiatives. After the Grenfell review, the Government will update the building regulations to mandate that all new residential developments must contain the enabling cabling for charge points. The Government will also update road works guidance for local authorities so that infrastructure is installed when these works are happening anyway. Officials in my department are working on the details of these measures with our colleagues in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government; the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, of working together with communities to deliver these charge points is good, and we will take that forward.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, have the Government ruled out at this stage a differential in the unit price for electricity used by someone to charge their car as against the unit price for electricity consumed in the home for, say, white goods, lighting and heating?

[Baroness Sugg]

I do not believe that that has been ruled out. I will come on to our strategy, which we will publish shortly; it will look at those kinds of issues.

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, made a number of wider and compelling points about transport emissions and how we can better influence investment decisions. I am afraid that I do not have time to go into those now or to begin to address them, but I hope that the noble Baroness will meet me so that we can discuss that further.

The noble Lord, Lord Birt, asked when we will publish our updated strategy, which will look at managing electricity and increasing charging points. We last set out our strategy on electric vehicles in 2013, so it is due an update. While our ambition that nearly all cars and vans should be zero-emissions vehicles by 2050 remains unchanged, obviously the market and technology have developed hugely since then, as the noble Lord, Lord Birt, pointed out. It is therefore right that we review the steps we need to deliver our ambition on this. We plan to publish the strategy by the end of March, and I hope that it will address many of the wider points raised today by the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Worthington, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and other noble Lords.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, made the sensible suggestion that we should have one universal charging point. The shift to electric vehicles is being driven by the global automotive industry. The Bill does not set out precisely which charging connector could be used as the common standard in any regulation. However, it will allow technical specifications to be set so that drivers can be confident that they will be able to plug in and charge when they arrive at public charge points. I am afraid that I do not have the information about how many of these charge points are operational, but I will go back to see whether we can find that out. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, is quite right that we must ensure that these all function as well.

My noble friend Lord Selborne and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, highlighted the importance of skills, and I agree that we must ensure that the UK has a suitably skilled workforce. Motorists with electric vehicles will clearly expect the same level of knowledge and customer service that they have come to expect in connection with conventional vehicles, and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, points out, it is important that we make sure that those trained in these vehicles are trained safely.

As a professional body for the automotive industry, the Institute of the Motor Industry is well placed to help government understand the challenge of ensuring that maintenance and repair is carried out in a professional and safe manner. There are already some level 1 to 3 qualifications in electric vehicle maintenance and repair, and between 30 and 50 UK colleges and training providers offer these courses. However, we can of course do more, and I will look closely at the suggestion made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on this. We recognise that this is a potential barrier for the uptake of electric vehicles and we are already taking steps to address this.

On the Parliamentary Estate—I wondered whether this would come up—there are currently only two charging points in the underground car park. A major project is under way to refurbish the car park, and around 80 car charging sockets are planned—10% of the planned car parking spaces—with the capacity to add more in the future. The car park refurbishment project started in the summer of last year and is due to finish in summer 2019.