Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2015

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Elton

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I entirely agree with my noble Friend. I think the aim of the Prevent programme, which clearly has not been as successful as we would want it to be to date, is to ensure that we engage with young people and with those in positions of authority, to whom young people listen. I do not know whether my noble Friend saw the account that I did last week, of a young woman who went to, I think, Syria with her child. Her family dropped her off at the airport thinking she was flying to Spain. She went out to Syria, and now she is trying to return home, completely disillusioned by what she has seen out there. She thought she was going to support a cause, and she realised what a terrible mistake she had made. We do not want young people making that mistake, and we want to ensure that there are preventive programmes in place.

Part of the Bill, I have to say, is what the Government are trying to achieve, but, as my noble Friend said, we must think longer term and realise how serious this is for the consequences, not only for the security of the nation but also for those young people themselves, who in many cases have been abused and end up disillusioned and disengaged. That is not what we want for young people.

I say to the noble Lord that we support this order. I repeat my gratitude to him for keeping us informed and writing to me beforehand.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

Does the noble Baroness agree that we should turn our attention to the abuse of freedom of speech? I think that it provokes enormous anger in people otherwise well disposed to a democratic society when they see people they regard as divine slandered and mocked in public media. The noble Baroness looks puzzled, but I am talking about the “Je suis Charlie” episode. I have absolute disgust at the reaction by which the people who were offended by this showed their anger, but I have profound sympathy with their anger. It seems to me that they have been provoked, and are being provoked, over generations, and I think moderation in all things is something that we must try to instil in our people and in our young people.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I think that respect for others and others’ views, including on religion, is very important. I think that respect, regard and politeness—not wanting to offend others—is important. It is very difficult, however, to draw the line, and there can be nothing at all that can justify or excuse the behaviour of those who murdered the journalists. If Paris taught us anything, it taught us that, when the crowds came out in Paris, where you had people from all faiths and none linking arms, walking through the streets, they were standing together against violence, but they were also standing together for freedom and democracy and the right to think and speak as they wish. There is, however, a difference between showing that we stand for freedom and making clear that we abhor such violence in any circumstance, and that there can never be any excuse or reason for it.

I was about to say to the noble Lord before that intervention that I support the order, but he will have heard the comments around your Lordships’ House tonight that this is not just about describing groups; it is a battle for hearts and minds as well.

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Elton

Tuesday 8th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, as I think the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, was intending to speak on this. We were looking at each other, and the noble Lord beat us both to the Dispatch Box.

I will be brief, as the Minister has sought to answer some of the questions, although others remain. We accept that the current definition of gangs has not been able to include or address some of the existing problems. The number of injunctions indicates that. Our worry is—this was raised at Second Reading—that in broadening the definition it becomes easier to get the lower-hanging fruit. There are two levels here. There are those gangs which are violent, intimidating—there are serious levels of violence in some cases. There are others who are altogether different: younger people who may appear intimidating to some people close to them and will have signs to indicate that they are gangs, but are of a very different order from those who threaten and terrorise communities. So there are two kinds of gangs under discussion. We want to see the most serious kind—the intimidating and violent— come into the ambit of this measure, but not by widening the definition so that those who are easier to catch and easier to identify, or are on the fringes of gangs, are inadvertently caught up.

I do not know whether the noble Lord, or any other noble Lords, saw the TV programme on Sunday evening called “Common”. I hesitate to address legal issues in the presence of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, but this fictional drama examined the law of common purpose or joint enterprise. If I understood right—I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong—that law dictates that all participants of a criminal enterprise have a responsibility for all the results of that enterprise. This was a case about a young man who was before the courts on a murder charge, even though he was the driver of the car and had no idea what was happening. Nevertheless, he was part of that criminal enterprise.

We have a slightly similar issue before us: could those who may not be part of violent activity, perhaps on the fringe but not involved, be somehow caught up? I am not defending those who are part of a criminal gang, or part of an activity where they should be held responsible: it is the idea of the wider definition catching the lower-hanging fruit, those who are easier to place an injunction on in the courts. Given that the first condition has to be satisfied on the balance of probabilities—the respondent has engaged in, or has encouraged or assisted gang-related violence or drug dealing—it would be helpful if the Minister could say exactly how he defines “engaged in, encouraged or assisted”. I suppose “engaged in” is quite easy. However, will whether someone is “encouraging” or “assisting” be defined in guidance?

I also echo the point made by my noble friend Lord Howarth when he asked for guidance from the Minister on what measures could be expected from the courts—when will that guidance be available? Will it be made available to your Lordships’ House before Report? It would be quite helpful in those discussions. Furthermore, concerns were raised by several noble Lords at Second Reading that the standard of proof here is a civil rather than a criminal one. I do not think the Minister addressed that in his comments in response to my noble friend. It would be helpful if he were able to address that.

I am sorry not to be as quick on my feet as the noble Lord—he is obviously fitter and healthier than I am. I will do better in future.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, before my noble friend applies the secateurs again to this budding debate, perhaps I may give notice that I also have points to raise, after he has dealt with this one.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Elton

Tuesday 18th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I see that the Minister is eager to respond, which I can well understand. I do not intend to detain the House; the noble Lords, Lord Avebury and Lord Pannick, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, have made some powerful points. There were some important questions there, particularly regarding the policy of the Home Office, to which it would be helpful if the Minister is able to respond.

On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, an unusually large number of amendments are before your Lordships’ House today for a Third Reading. I do not recall seeing as many in my time in this House or in the other place. I can see Ministers nodding in agreement. Perhaps they could consider whether the Bill’s needing considerable discussion has something to do with its inadequacy when it was first presented to your Lordships' House. Noble Lords have made great efforts, particularly where they have supported the Government’s policies in principle, to look at the detail. However, in many cases—and perhaps understandably given that three completely new sections of the Bill were not envisaged when the timetable was set, and given the changes of Ministers and changes of policy that we have seen—it has been very difficult.

I appreciate that time is limited today, and I do take issue with the scheduling. We have three important debates with a large number of speakers tonight, and it will be difficult to complete the business within the rules of the Companion, to which the noble Lord, Lord Elton, was right to draw the House’s attention, so I do not wish to repeat the comments that have been made. However, there are some important questions here.

I raised some questions on Report which came back to the issue of public safety. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, pointed out, people understand, and I think that the House understands, why if somebody is a danger to the public they should not have leave to remain. The question is about the process and why somebody becomes a danger to the public when they leave the country, as the noble Lord said, but not when they are in the country. There is an issue of process here and it would be helpful if the Minister were able to address those points. However, noble Lords who have already spoken, including the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, have raised and done justice to the issues, so I do not intend to repeat them, but I would be very interested in the Minister’s response.

[Lord Elton]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, I should say that the Clerk of the Parliaments has kindly pointed out that I should have been looking at paragraph 8.143, not 8.142; therefore what we are doing is in order, but is far in advance of anything I remember in my earlier years. However, things do move on.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I readily concede the noble Lord’s encyclopaedic knowledge of the Companion, but I think the reasons why the amendments have been brought forward today are very good. However, it is unusual, and perhaps it would have been better to have had longer discussions about some of these issues, and to have had responses that satisfied the House earlier in the Bill’s proceedings.