Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 19th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I have to say, this is not the noble Lord’s first occasion but, on previous occasions when he intervened in other debates that I have sat in, once again it was anti- DUP propaganda that was being put out. It was not against Sinn Féin.

As far as the three years are concerned, it seemed that Sinn Féin had to be placated and whatever it asked for had to be done. It gave us three lines in the sand, remember: same-sex marriage, abortion, and the proposed culture and Irish language Bill. I ask Members of this House to tell us this: which of those three things have the Government not done or indicated they are about to do? Yet everything that unionism has asked for has been refused and rejected. I am sad to say that, recently, under the Brexit agreement, we found the border down the Irish Sea and the protocol. We are—indeed, every unionist in the country is— demanding that that protocol be removed, yet we find that, in actual fact, it is not to be removed.

The principle of consent is at the heart of this. I suggest to the House that the proposals that are mentioned in the amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Rogan, do not have the support of, nor command support across, the community.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, we have had perhaps a lengthier and more wide-reaching debate than originally anticipated on these amendments, which we also discussed in Committee. That serves to indicate just how much these issues hang together in people’s minds and concerns, as well as how deep some of these issues go. As the Minister will know from his discussions with me outside this Chamber, it goes back to the point about how, when Westminster deals with issues relating to Northern Ireland, there must be a lot of engagement and discussion to reach agreement. That can be difficult, as we have heard today.

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[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, may I simply say that the cross-community safeguards at the heart of the devolved settlement have been trashed by the protocol? The wilful and reckless decision by the Secretary of State unilaterally to remove the cross-community voting protections contained in Section 42 of the 1998 Act has damaged public confidence. Whether noble Lords want to believe it or not, they had better realise that, if the protocol continues, the Northern Ireland Assembly is on life support. Do not rub the nose of Unionists in the ground.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, when this amendment was first tabled at short notice in Committee by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, as I know it had to be, I have to say that I struggled to understand how it was in scope, and I still feel that it is slightly outwith the Bill. Having said that, I am really pleased that we have had this debate, which has been extremely powerful. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, for taking the time to speak to me and my noble friend Lord Coaker about their concerns on this issue.

As I say, it has been a very powerful debate and I hope the Minister understands the strength of feeling around the House. I always felt that the situation was tough on Northern Ireland. During the debate on Brexit, when the Prime Minister had his “£350 million a week for the NHS”, I do not recall many people paying attention to what the situation would be in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland can rightly feel aggrieved that its interests did not seem to be very high on anyone’s agenda, a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey.

I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for the points he made and for the extremely thoughtful way in which he addressed some of the issues. I do not support the amendment being in the Bill—that is quite a difficult stretch to make—but the Government have to listen to what has been said here. I made a similar comment earlier on the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. The scope of this Bill is around the New Decade, New Approach issues. The Bill’s approach is very narrow; it is looking for agreement in areas where there is cross-party agreement, which we have been discussing. The amendment goes outside that.

However, I find it absolutely extraordinary that, when the Government were debating and discussing Brexit with the EU, nobody from Northern Ireland was in the room as part of those discussions. I saw the noble Lord, Lord Frost, wander in earlier, but he left before this debate, which is a great shame, given that he is the architect of the protocol; it would have been useful had he remained and perhaps given us some explanation of how we reached this point. I have to say that the Government have let Northern Ireland down in the handling of the protocol, which was debated, discussed and agreed by this Government. Unless those with a stake in the economy and business of Northern Ireland are directly engaged in those discussions and negotiations, it will be very difficult to reach an agreement and conclusion that can satisfy and benefit Northern Ireland. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, made a very important point in his brief contribution when he talked about the way forward for negotiations and to find an agreement. If the people of Northern Ireland are not included in those negotiations, that will be extremely hard to do.

Many of us recall—I am sure noble Lords from Northern Ireland recall—the film of the Prime Minister speaking to a business group in Northern Ireland and saying, “There’ll be no checks, no borders, no tariffs and no forms to fill in. If you get a form, send it to me—give them my home number and I’ll deal with it.” They were the Prime Minister’s rules, as my noble friend Lord Hain said, and we know that the Prime Minister does not always know what is in his own rules—that has been established already today. But on something of this importance, it is extraordinary that the Government were so careless with Northern Ireland. So I understand the depth of feeling on this issue, and I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for allowing this debate today, even though it seems to be outwith the Bill.

There are further negotiations to come and they must focus on the talks, but the Government have to be on notice on this if they do not include Northern Ireland in those negotiations. Why not have one of the meetings in Northern Ireland? Go to Northern Ireland and talk to businesses and to people who live with this, day in, day out, and there might be a better conclusion. That process has to run its course, which is why we cannot support the amendment. But let no one be under any illusion that we do not understand the problems that this Government have caused.

There is an ongoing court case, as has been mentioned, and a number of issues have to be addressed. I look forward to the Minister’s response, but I have to say to him: get a grip, because this cannot continue in this way. It has direct implications for political stability in Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, made the point—my noble friend Lord Hain made a slightly different one—that it was the UK’s decision to leave the EU. When the constituent parts of the UK were looked at, Northern Ireland was one of the areas that voted against leaving the EU, yet it is facing some of the harshest consequences of that decision, which is unfair. I hope the Minister can say today that this issue will be looked at seriously and Northern Ireland will be involved in the decision-making process. It may not be a matter for the Bill today, but it is certainly not going to go away.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Empey referred to “mission creep”, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, referred to the scope of the Bill. I confess that when I started the Bill in your Lordships’ House, little did I suspect that I would probably spend more time discussing the Northern Ireland protocol, which does not form part of the Bill, than any of the provisions that do form part of it. So I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn on their ingenuity in bringing this matter before the House through this amendment. Of course, following the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, I completely understand the strength of feeling in Northern Ireland on aspects of the protocol. Indeed, before I assumed my role on the Front Bench, I think I gave expression to some of them myself. I completely understand the sincerity with which the noble Baroness and my noble friend have brought their case today.

In one area, I will slightly disappoint the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey. When she brought this to the Committee, I referred to the fact that a number of the issues she raised on the compatibility of the protocol with the Belfast agreement and the Act of Union, on which the noble Lord, Lord Bew, made some interesting and pertinent comments, are currently the subject of a court case. These arguments are being considered by the Court of Appeal in Belfast so I am to some extent limited in what I can say. We expect the judgment shortly; I cannot put a date on it, obviously, but we await the outcome of that case with huge interest.

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I just want to pick up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, about engagement. The Assembly and the Executive were in abeyance for much of the period after the referendum, which included our triggering Article 50 and leaving the EU. It was very unfortunate, to say the least, that that was the case.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I accept that point. It was a huge detriment to Northern Ireland that the Assembly was not meeting at that time. However, there were still businesses and elected representatives. It would have been so helpful if the Government had just been a bit more thoughtful about Northern Ireland during those negotiations.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I appreciate the noble Baroness’s sentiments. To give one example, I recall that, in the aftermath of the referendum, the then First Minister, Arlene Foster, and the then Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, wrote a letter to the then Prime Minister setting out the Northern Ireland Executive’s priorities for the negotiations. Of course, shortly thereafter, for reasons that we are all too familiar with, the Assembly and the Executive went into abeyance for three years, but I take the point. I was there for a good deal of that period, and there was a lot of engagement going on, but we lacked the formal mechanism of the Executive.

On engagement, my understanding is that the Minister for Europe is due to be in Northern Ireland tomorrow to meet a number of business organisations and individual businesses. He has held meetings with Members of your Lordships’ House in the past few days. This morning, along with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Europe Minister, I attended a regular meeting with the First and Deputy First Ministers of Northern Ireland; that will be an ongoing process. We recognise the need for strong engagement on these matters.

I want to go back to the reasons for urging the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in a very wise contribution, emphasised the ongoing nature of the discussions and the fact that we need to try to give those discussions breathing space to reach a successful conclusion.