Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL]

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 19th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I bring apologies from my noble friend Lord Storey, who is in foreign parts but assured us, before he went, that he would be able to get connectivity and come in and join us on this and other amendments. He self-evidently is not here, so my noble friend Lord Addington and I will try desperately hard to fill the gap he leaves.

I support this amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Storey and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. He has been assiduous in his efforts to tackle cheating in all its forms. His research has resulted in a “Panorama” programme following foreign student colleges that collected large sums of money to accredit bogus students with qualifications, which were awarded by reputable awarding organisations that had taken their eye off the ball in their scrutiny of candidates and processes. It was horrifying to see how much money changed hands by falsifying student records and buying certificates with no shred of competence. We saw classes of foreign students who could barely say their names in English, with no language or professional ability, yet who, on payment, could obtain genuine certificates with utterly false credentials. Those awarding bodies have now been tasked and scrutinised, and had their processes significantly tightened.

This amendment is aimed at those who seek to part students from their money in return for validation that has no reality. Cheating has become easier in the technological age. It was more arduous when you had to go to a library and photocopy material—literally cut and paste—but there are those with money and very few brains who aspire to qualifications. It is in the interests of those of us who admire our education system that cheating is stopped, at all costs. If this is not already an offence, it should be. This amendment will ensure that those who seek to cheat in this way can be taken to task and it surely has a place in the Bill. I beg to move.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I speak on the subject of cheating partly because I have a son who is an academic and I know what agonies this creates for conscientious tutors. I offer two insights. First, cheating at universities and elsewhere is made much easier by the prevalence of coursework, which means there could have been an increase during Covid, to add to our woes.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, rightly said, it is easier in the technological age. The safest thing is to base assessments on exams in person and, if that is not possible, to have tight turnaround times for papers, because that makes cheating harder. The penalties should also be clear—whether being chucked out of university or made to do another year—and whether they apply to essays, which are under examination with this amendment, or to exams only.

Secondly, it is an international problem. An amendment banning services in the UK, which this seeks to do, will just move these services overseas. It is an important issue and I look forward to hearing from the Minister about how it is best tackled. I very much thank those who have brought the amendment to the House today.

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[Baroness Morgan of Cotes (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I draw attention to my entry in the register of interests as a non-executive director of the Careers & Enterprise Company. It is a pleasure to follow noble Lords in speaking to these four amendments. As others have said, their overall purpose is to ensure that all pupils get the best possible advice about future careers that may be open and attractive to them—that they get information about all types of education establishment, including those offering technical education, and the steps needed to get there, and are inspired about their futures.

As I said in the last Committee session, although the Bill looks particularly at post-16 education, careers education is vital right the way through, even from the earliest stages, including the upper levels of primary school. Indeed, that inspiration about the future is why I wanted the Careers & Enterprise Company to be set up: to bridge the gap that had emerged between the world of work and employers and that of education. It was based on a model I had seen operating in Loughborough called Bridge to Work.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and other noble Lords for their remarks about the Careers & Enterprise Company. In November 2020 the company published a report, Careers Education in England’s Schools and Colleges. It said:

“England now has the foundations of a coherent and well-established careers education system, driven nationally by the internationally recognised Gatsby Benchmarks, and delivered locally through The Careers & Enterprise Company’s strategic partnerships with Local Enterprise Partnerships, Mayoral combined authorities and Local Authorities.”


Previously in Committee we have discussed the importance of involving mayoral combined authorities, local authorities and others in the local skills improvement plans.

In relation to the amendments before us, I urge noble Lords to look at the research reports on the Careers & Enterprise Company website, in particular one dated 23 June this year, Careers Leadership in Colleges. I also encourage noble Lords to find out more, perhaps locally, about the work done by the magnificent careers leaders in our schools and colleges across the country—particularly, as the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, just reminded us, in the face of the Covid pandemic.

I welcome the mention of careers hubs in Amendment 84. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, has already set out the significant improvements, and the success that careers hubs are having. His amendment calls for the Secretary of State to ensure that all further education providers give enough access to the support offered by careers hubs. That should already be happening—careers hubs provide a central plank of the skills for jobs White Paper and are designed to bring together employers, schools and colleges, apprenticeship and training providers and others aligned with national skills and local jobs—but clearly there is some way to go, so the sentiment of Amendment 84 is absolutely right.

Noble Lords have mentioned the importance of the eight Gatsby benchmarks. The measurement that schools and colleges are doing against those Gatsby benchmarks is the reason why we are able to say that over the last five years, we have had the strong foundations and coherent careers strategy that we have not had before.

I listened with great interest to the speech by my noble friend Lord Baker. Although he has not met the current Education Minister, he met me several times when I was Education Secretary and I enjoyed our conversations very much. I absolutely understand the rationale behind his amendment. I would just draw attention to what he is proposing with Gatsby benchmark 7, which is about ensuring that schools and colleges make sure that there are encounters with further and higher education providers, including independent training providers. Schools and colleges are not able to show that they have achieved that Gatsby benchmark if they have not ensured that their students understand the full range of learning opportunities available to them, both academic and vocational routes to learning. Schools have to satisfy six criteria, including providing information on the full range of apprenticeships, encounters with further and higher education, including independent training providers, and university visits. My noble friend might say that if colleges and schools are aiming for that Gatsby benchmark, Ministers should accept his amendment, which would enable them to fulfil it. I will listen to with great interest to the Minister’s response.

My noble friend Lord Baker also rightly drew attention to the Department for Education’s very recently updated statutory careers guidance that it has just issued, drawing attention to schools’ and colleges’ legal requirement to provide an access duty, commonly known as the Baker clause, and to make sure that they have put arrangements in place to comply fully with the law, but also with the Ofsted school inspection handbook. Ofsted has made it a legal requirement to comment on the careers guidance at the further education colleges that are at the heart of the Bill.

Lastly, although we are talking about careers advice and guidance in education settings, we should never forget that some of the most influential people in helping young people to find their future inspiration are the adults around them—parents, families, carers and others. Who knows? For some, it may even be a visit to Westminster that leads them to decide that a career in politics is for them.

There are undoubtedly valid points in all these amendments and I hope the Minister will reflect on them. However, I also hope that noble Lords will appreciate that much is now working in careers provision in England, thanks to the consistent approach over recent years. The need now is to keep up the momentum and to ensure that any extra asks of the careers system are rooted in evidence.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, it is a particular pleasure to follow my noble friend Lady Morgan of Cotes and to hear of her practical support for career hubs.

I support those who have emphasised the importance of careers guidance in schools and colleges, particularly technical options and employer engagement. These are one of the issues that I always mention when I do Speakers for Schools. I make a point of visiting the arts, crafts, music, photography and other non-academic facilities because the creative sector is hugely important to individuals and to UK success.

The issue is particularly difficult for those who do not have parents who know much about career options. You can find yourself on the wrong path unless you talk early on to a knowledgeable adviser. Funnily enough, I know this from my own experience. Having been to Oxford University, I wanted to set up a landscape gardening business but discovered that I would have to go back to an educational institution to fill the science gaps in my convent education before I could do the necessary training. Eventually I joined the Civil Service instead.

Many people less fortunate than me fall through gaps in the education system. So I should add that I very much endorse the thrust of what my noble and learned friend Lord Clarke of Nottingham said earlier, in a brilliant speech, about the need to find a way of helping those who missed out, particularly at levels 2 and 3—some of them no doubt because they did not receive careers advice at the right stage of life.

I am not sure that the answer to the problem is yet another strategy, as proposed in Amendment 83. We just need Ministers to require all pupils to be given careers advice—for example, a minimum of twice in schools, once before they start GCSEs and once before A-levels or, in either case, the equivalent. Technical colleges and universities should also be required to have career hubs of some kind, as the noble Lord, Lord Patel, has argued. Visits from businesspeople and other role models should be positively encouraged as part of a rich curriculum. Such a system might also require some extra funding.

I look forward to hearing the Minister’s plans. I will listen carefully to her responses to the various options, including the mechanisms that would be needed for enforcement, particularly the idea of a statutory duty that was put forward by my noble friend Lord Baker of Dorking, who has given us a lifetime of educational innovation and achievement, for which are most thankful.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s remark that she wanted to become a landscape gardener but ended us as a civil servant could make the brilliant first sentence of an autobiography, with us all intrigued as to how the intent to become the one ended up in the more humdrum reality of the other. I only hope that, maybe by utilising all the opportunities of lifelong or lifetime learning, she is able to indulge her passion. She has great artistic genius and this may be the moment when she could set up a new enterprise.

There are two issues here. The first is the careers guidance to students in schools and colleges about what should happen after they leave that institution. The second is the more specific issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, of advertising options to students in secondary schools for moving to alternative providers, including between the ages of 11 and 16—when they might be better served by, for example, one of the noble Lord’s university technical colleges—and seeing that that advice is made available to them.

We need to accept that, as is the experience of all of us in the House, careers advice and guidance has never been done well. The truth is that schools with a more academic bent—which I am glad to say is now most schools, but even until quite recently, they were in the minority—have always been pretty good at giving advice and guidance on universities. That is because teachers are graduates and know about universities, and schools are judged on the university destinations of their more able students. However, those schools have traditionally been poor or worse at providing options for technical and further education. That is partly because they are not incentivised to do so, since public authorities and the inspectorate mostly do not notice whether they do or not, but also because teachers by definition have very little experience of these areas. There are almost no teachers who themselves have done apprenticeships or gone on to further education.

So we need to accept that this has never been well done. I suppose that in all areas of policy there is golden-ageism—“30 years ago it was done brilliantly and it has all degenerated since”—but we must accept that the old-style careers service was not great. It did not turn up in most schools, and when it did it was pretty haphazard. It was not regarded as a high priority by local authorities, and schools’ engagement with it was generally a low priority too.

The various incarnations of the careers service—up to and including the Careers & Enterprise Company, which came partly from the wholesale privatisation of the old careers service and the requirement that it be disbanded, which was a draconian step that I would never have taken—have not led to great careers guidance in schools. All those who do good work in this area should be applauded, and the Gatsby benchmarks are great. The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and the Careers & Enterprise Company, which I hear some good accounts of and some accounts that it barely infringes on the work of schools at all, are to be encouraged. However, there is a systemic problem that we have never properly addressed, which is how we ensure that within each institution there is a facility—which in my experience always means a person—responsible for delivering careers guidance, including technical education guidance.