Education Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2011 Grand Committee

The noble Lord the Leader of the House told me that this House is the only legislature in the world which includes ex officio representation of clerics, and that may be one reason why Britain is the only democracy in the western world to prescribe a mandatory act of worship in non-religious publicly funded schools, and a daily one at that. I certainly hope that we can put that right in this Bill, and that where such an act is retained by a school, after consultation with parents and pupils, attendance should be a voluntary option. I beg to move.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 97 in my name. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for his eloquent and informative introduction to this group of amendments, and of course I agree with the issues he raised. I, too, should declare an interest as secretary of the British Humanist Association and a patron of the National Secular Society. I wish to speak mainly as someone who has been involved in teaching in various schools over a number of years. I should make it clear from the beginning that I think that a daily gathering—an assembly, if you like—of the whole school is of immense value. Such gatherings can be informative, uplifting and inspiring, and they do not need to be Christian.

I have taken part in many assemblies in my time and have noted that often in those assemblies Jewish, Muslim or Hindu children sat in the classroom outside the assembly because they did not wish to participate and were doing very little, as far as I could make out. Schools are not churches, synagogues, mosques or temples. They are places of wide learning, and I am disappointed that—despite opposition from educational practitioners and a government commitment to free up schools from prescriptive rules and regulations—a repeal of the duty on all schools to participate in a daily act of worship that is “broadly Christian in nature” is not included in the Bill. This is surely an outdated law.

The law, in theory at least, impedes a school’s ability to provide assemblies that are not Christian but may be based on moral and ethical precepts. Some of the best assemblies that I have taken part in or witnessed have been based on such moral and ethical themes. For example, I remember an assembly on the theme of friendship. In it the story of Ruth from the Bible of course came up, but so did many inspirational texts. Pupils contributed their own views and readings about friendship. Such assemblies would have been technically outside the law—a law that is consistently flouted by schools. Why have that law?

The law also violates the human right of freedom of belief for children. As I have said, Christian-based assemblies exclude pupils from other faiths. My amendment would replace the requirement to conduct collective worship with a requirement to hold assemblies that would further the,

“spiritual, moral, social and cultural education”

of children. Assemblies should take account of the many faiths, religions and beliefs in one school. If the law were to be changed, shared values found in different religious beliefs, including humanism, could be explored and be based on our common ground of humanity. This would represent a new entitlement for pupils, unlike the current requirement to provide Christian collective worship. The law is outdated. Why keep it?

[Baroness Flather]

My Lords, I have put my name to the amendment. I want to tell you of my own two experiences of collective assemblies—not collective worship.

When I was a child in India, the school that I went to held an assembly every morning. It was not for worship but for learning. We learnt much more, as the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, has said, about how to be good people, good citizens and good human beings than we would have done with one faith. My second experience was later in life when I went to a Methodist college, where we were made to go to chapel every day. It took place in the middle of the day, so that one could not arrive late. The teachers would go round the classrooms making sure that none of us girls was skiving. I am not saying that this happens now in schools, but quite often in those assemblies anti-Hindu and anti-Muslim sentiments were expressed. That left us with a very bitter taste. Frankly, I never understood what Methodism was about until I came here and worked with Methodists in my area—they do much good work. However, we did not know that and we did not learn about the good things. We were told only about the belief system.

The time has come to widen the remit and allow schools to focus on the needs of all the children in the school, because I do not believe in children withdrawing from a morning assembly. If you start to do that and the parents start to withdraw their children, you do not have a group spirit. The attitude is, “These people are there and those people are there. These children will not be coming”, and so on. That is a very retrograde step. It should be compulsory for all children to attend an assembly in the morning, and that assembly should be such that it is meaningful to everyone. I do not understand why the principles of various faiths or religions cannot be used in that assembly instead of just the dogma, the doctrine, or whatever, that people feel that there should be. If we had other faith preachers come now and again to speak at an assembly, it would bring everybody together much more.

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Amendment 97, tabled by my noble friend Lady Massey, would abolish the requirement that collective worship, except in schools of a designated religious character, should be of a broadly Christian nature and change it to one whereby assemblies should not include any religious worship. Barely two hours ago, over 100 Members of your Lordships’ House stood up in the Chamber just down the corridor and took part in a collective act of worship, and the other House did exactly the same. If it is good enough for Members of both Houses of Parliament to take part, because the law so prescribes it, why is it not suitable for our children to do the same?

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

Could I interrupt my noble friend? Members of your Lordships’ House are a good deal older than school children and can make their own choice.

[Lord Touhig]

Yes, indeed, and a number of Members did not come into the Chamber. It is right and proper that they should be able to exercise that right. Equally, parents on behalf of their children can exercise the same right under the law as it stands. My noble friend said earlier that the law was flouted and therefore asked why we have it, but there is a law which says you should not drink and drive. Would we imagine abolishing it because some people flout it? This morning I saw two people driving cars while using their mobile phones. Again, that is against the law, but because the law has been broken, should we take it off the statute book? Of course we should not. I do not think that that arguments carries any weight.

For the reasons I have given, it is worth while to maintain the collective act of worship in our schools and I believe it is right that that collective act of worship should be Christian in nature for the reasons I have argued. Other noble Lords may have different views, and it is important that we should respect each other’s views. The present law allows for that.

My final comment is this. One of my oldest friends, the late Leo Abse, represented Pontypool and Torfaen in the other place for over 30 years and was probably responsible for more social legislation than any Back-Bencher in the history of the British Parliament. His final words to his constituency Labour Party when he announced his retirement were these: “Tolerate everything and tolerate everyone, but do not tolerate intolerance”. I believe that these amendments lead to a degree of intolerance. I am sure that that is not the intention, but it is where I believe they will lead.

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[Lord McAvoy]

That is technically true, but it forces them to accept assumptions—I shall not be provocative and say that they are based on hostility—that are certainly not sympathetic towards school gatherings based on Christian beliefs. This should surely be about tolerance. If people want to change the way that things are, surely they should go about convincing people of that. I really do not understand, because no one in this Room has a mandate to talk about removing the basis of collective worship within schools. I should certainly like to see a politician standing for election along the corridor try to advocate some of the beliefs and authoritarian elements in these proposals.

I appeal to colleagues: if you want to change things, try to persuade; do not dictate or try to lay down such conditions from on high. Whether colleagues like it or not those are the unforeseen consequences. I agree with my noble friend Lord Touhig that it is not the intention of noble Lords to be hostile to faith schools on the basis of collective worship.

I shall say another couple of quick sentences in a mood of co-operation. My noble friend Lady Massey said that schools are places of learning only. Among a whole host of things, I accept that. However, the religion that I belong to—the Roman Catholic faith—believes in the trinity: home, school and church. We do not believe that schools are there for learning only.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

In fact, I did not say that schools are places of learning only. I would support schools that have a wide learning experience, such as culture, the arts, sport and so on. Learning is not just about academic learning. Learning is moral, spiritual and so on. I was trying to say that schools are not churches, temples, mosques or synagogues.

[Lord McAvoy]

The Catholic schools that I know, and which I have the most experience of, incorporate all the various subjects that my noble friend mentions. There is nothing wrong with that. I go and speak to modern studies classes and I assure my noble friend that their opinions are extremely varied. These schools encompass everything. They get involved in fair trade, mission work for Africa and raising funds. They do terrific work based on their faith and it should not be mocked. I believe that if people choose to say that school, home and church are a trinity, they are entitled to do so. I very much oppose the amendments.

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Moved by

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

103: Clause 34, page 33, line 33, at end insert—
“( ) In paragraph 5 of Schedule 11 to the Equality Act 2010 omit paragraphs (a) to (e).”

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

I shall speak also to Amendments 140 and 141 in this group. I was fascinated by the previous debate on admissions, when many wise and challenging things were said. My noble friend Lady Morris, I think, said that we have a system littered with schools trying to do their best but fighting a losing battle because of other local schools selecting pupils. We heard some comments about schools selecting parents, rather than the other way round. I know that the Church of England has recently been looking at this and I hope for some clarification on its thinking.

The Minister talked about autonomy and variety. Autonomy and variety will not solve all the issues in front of us concerning admissions. I want to talk about faith schools. My first amendment to the Academies Act 2010 would prevent academies and free schools with a religious character discriminating on admissions; my second would prevent voluntary-controlled faith schools which convert to academy status from increasing the priority of religious criteria in their admissions policies.

As my noble friend Lady Hughes said earlier, admission to school is extremely important. We know that many state-funded faith schools use their legal privileges to have highly selective admissions criteria, giving preference to the children of parents with particular beliefs. Academy schools which have converted from state-maintained faith schools are, of course, their own admissions authority, and they religiously discriminate up to 100 per cent in admissions. Free schools with a religious character may discriminate in up to 50 per cent of admissions. Will that remain the case? Will that be the case for looked-after children who do not have the same faith as the school they want to go to?

Discrimination by faith schools can cause segregation along both religious and socio-economic lines. Professor Ted Cantle, author of a report into community cohesion in Blackburn, describes religious schools as,

“automatically a source of division”,

in the town. In other areas, faith schools that are their own admission authorities are 10 times more likely to be highly unrepresentative of their surrounding area than faith schools where the local authority is the admission authority. Separating children by religion, class and ethnicity is totally opposed to the aim of social cohesion.

In addition, voluntary aided faith schools have, on average, 50 per cent fewer pupils requiring free school meals than community schools. Pupils starting at faith schools are also, on average, more academically able than pupils starting at inclusive schools. That is because faith schools’ selection criteria mean that they usually—not always, but usually—take fewer deprived children and more than their fair share of children of ambitious and wealthier parents.

I share an office with a colleague from Northern Ireland, who constantly asks me: “Have we not learnt the lessons from faith schools in Northern Ireland?”. All schools should include and educate pupils of all beliefs together so that they can learn about and from each other, instead of being segregated by their religion. Prejudice was mentioned last week in Committee. I heard that homophobic bullying is more likely to happen in faith schools. The amendment to the Equality Act 2010 will stop maintained schools—voluntary and foundation schools—with a religious character from discriminating in admissions by removing the opt-out from the Act.

Any religious discrimination in admissions is against the ideal of an open and inclusive school system. No state-funded faith school, including academies, should be permitted to discriminate in their admissions on religious grounds in any circumstances. My first amendment would rule out religious discrimination in admissions to all new academies. If the complete prohibition of religious discrimination in the new academy and free school system cannot be achieved, and my first amendment does not pass, my second amendment would ensure that voluntarily controlled schools which had not previously been permitted to discriminate could not begin to discriminate on conversion to academy status. I beg to move.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 138. I like faith schools and I want parents to be able to choose them, whether or not they are of that faith. I share the distress of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, at the idea that schools become ghettoes for their own religion. Wherever that is widely practised it has been disastrous. Northern Ireland in particular and also the west of Scotland are examples of where this has caused and causes continuing division and strife that we do not see in the rest of the UK.

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[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I looked at Amendments 138 and 140 and was troubled and confused. After listening to my noble friend Lady Massey, I am worried again. She knows me well enough to know that I have no wish to misrepresent her in any way, but she seems to be saying that, in her view, faith schools are more likely to be homophobic, do not take youngsters from poorer backgrounds and are therefore more middle-class. If that is what she is saying, I am sure she genuinely believes it, but perhaps I may suggest—taking the point made by the right reverend Prelate—that she moves out of London and travels around the country to see what faith schools are actually doing in some of the most deprived communities in our country.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend in full flow but I must say that what I said about the issue of homophobic bullying in faith schools was a quotation from someone in this Room. It was not my impression—I quoted someone who averred that this was the case. On his second point, I am not saying that all faith schools are of one particular calibre, I am saying that some schools undoubtedly experience what the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, said, that parents move to the grandparents’ house or to the end of the road to get into a particular school, which remains firmly ghettoised, if I may use the expression.

[Lord Touhig]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for clarifying that point, because it is important that we fully understand her views on this. I am glad that I gave her the opportunity to explain in more detail what she believes and understands. I accept her final point. I have been the governor of a faith school and there are instances where people move around in order to try to get their child into a faith school.

I am troubled and confused about Amendment 138. It states:

“No Academy may select more than 50% of its pupils on criteria based on religious characteristics”.

It goes on to say that those who attend will be required,

“to take a full part in the school’s religious life”.

It seems to state that half the school population should not be of any particular faith but that all the school population must take part in the school’s religious life. To my mind, that is wrong. I strongly support the view that parents should have the right to withdraw their child or children from the religious life of a school if they so wish. At the moment, Catholic schools that convert to academy status retain their existing admissions arrangements. The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, would mean that 50 per cent of the pupils would not be admitted on the basis of faith. This makes no sense whatsoever and is really discriminatory. My noble friend Lady Massey made the point about public funding for faith schools. The Catholic church, like others, pays a great deal of money towards supporting its own schools in any event. We should bear that in mind.

Amendment 140, moved by my noble friend Lady Massey, states,

“admission arrangements for the school should make no provision for selection on the basis of religion or belief”.

I am sure that it is not my noble friend’s intention, but that would put at risk every Catholic school and faith school in the country. What is the point of having a Catholic school, or a faith school of any kind, if there is to be no provision based on faith, belief or religion in deciding the admissions policy? I am sure it is not her intention—I am sure it would never be the intention of my party—to close every faith school in the country, but that is the risk of this amendment.

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[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords—

[Lord McAvoy]

If you will let me finish, it is completely unfair to portray them in the way that they are being portrayed here at times.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend. I think he will find when he reads Hansard tomorrow that at no point have I said the things that he is accusing me of.

[Lord McAvoy]

It may be that the noble Baroness has not heard me clearly. I am saying that inherent in these amendments is the idea that faith schools are a bad thing. Folk may not like that, but that is what is coming across loud and clear. For instance, there has been no answer to the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, who quickly picked up the point that the trait of moving house is not confined to faith schools or Catholic schools; it seems to be a trait throughout a whole host of schools. Yet, there has been no mention of that or any drawing back of the implication that this happens only in Catholic schools.

Society is evolving. Last week, I revised my opinion of the noble Lord, Lord Baker. I certainly remember him from the 1980s and I did not like his politics, but last week I thought that he was great. However, this week I have revised my revision and he is back to being a bad man again. Certainly for 800 years we kept the faith in Ireland, I can tell you. In saying that there should not be any more faith schools, the noble Lord, Lord Baker, makes a point and he is asking us to trumpet it. I think I mentioned last week that there is a fairly large Roman Catholic school in Scotland where, if my memory serves me correctly, about 10 per cent of the pupils are Muslim. It is working and it is great—it is doing well for everyone.

I have mentioned the phrase “detachment of reality”. I say to noble Lords who have tabled these amendments and who have spoken in the manner that they have: let society evolve and let things happen. No one should take active steps against what they see as the badness in faith schools. I say to noble Lords in all sincerity, honesty and frankness that the more you try to enforce this, the higher the wall will go up, because there has been a lack of trust that is based on British history over the past 500 years. I am sure that noble Lords will be glad to hear that I shall not go into all that, but that lack of trust is based on 500 years of British society. One thinks particularly of the Catholic community. If noble Lords try to enforce it, it just will not happen. They should go the way suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, of letting things evolve, although I disassociate myself from his wish not to build faith schools. On the other hand, if you make a big issue of it, that may happen anyway, and if so, and if that is what people want, that will be a good thing. However, I do not accept that faith schools are a bad thing.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is completely unworkable. It would cause strife and animosity and would make the original ethos of the school seem dictatorial towards the new component of the school. That would take us back. I say again that if we want to move forward, the way ahead is consensus. We should convince people that going in a particular direction is right. Go that way and all the community will come together. Go in the opposite direction, and the community will be divided.

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[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I take the underlying point. In my comments, I made reference to the importance of inspection. That is not simple, because inspectors need to know what they are looking for if they go into a faith school where one might think there is cause for concern. It is not always straightforward, but inspection is one way of addressing this.

As to setting up new schools and free schools, about which noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, have concerns, oddly enough I think that because that whole process is being set by and overseen by the Government from the outset—we have due diligence and ways of exploring these questions, which we will do carefully and rigorously—that area is of less concern than perhaps that of independent schools and maintained schools. I am not at all dismissive of the point that the noble Baroness raises. I hope that inspection and the Secretary of State’s powers on academies to make sure that everything is operating correctly will provide some reassurance. We should not stick our heads in the sand about the issue. I was headed towards asking the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, to consider withdrawing her amendment.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords, as ever, this has been a fascinating and wide-ranging debate. We are evolving in this, but evolution sometimes needs a little helping hand. I accept the historical role played by the church in education but we have become a different society from the one that we were many years ago. I continue to have fears about ghettoisation. Of course I am not seeking to close faith schools. I am not sure how I gave that impression. I am just seeking to ensure that faith schools are more open, and I have some sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Baker, in all this.

In following up the question of my noble friend Lady Morris, which I was also going to ask, I hope that the Minister has no fears that some free school could be set up somewhere and designed solely to promote a faith of one kind or another. I am not so convinced of that. I accept the historical influence of faith schools, and I am not seeking to go back on that. However, we have to continue our vigilance about our schools—be they faith schools or otherwise. As always, I would wish to strike a balance. I hope that at some point we can discuss with Members of the Committee of all faiths some of the issues that came up in my previous amendment and try to reach a greater understanding. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 103 withdrawn.