Baroness Maddock
Main Page: Baroness Maddock (Liberal Democrat - Life peer)Energy Bill [HL]
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Baroness Maddock
Baroness Maddock
I rise to move Amendment 20E, as set out in the Marshalled List, and I will speak to Amendments 20F, 20G, 20H, 20J and 20K.
As we are starting on the chapter of the Bill that refers to the private rented sector, let me make a few general comments before speaking to the amendments. I welcome the fact that, for the first time, the Government are making a serious attempt to deal with energy efficiency in the private sector. The issue has dogged the housing world for a number of years, so I really welcome the Government’s proposals.
In making a few general points about the situation in the private sector, I also want to mention fuel poverty. In many cases, not only is private rented accommodation the worst maintained part of our housing stock, but it contains a large number of vulnerable households and those living in fuel poverty. The sector accounts for 14.2 per cent of the housing stock—a little over 3 million homes in England—and has a disproportionately high number of homes with the worst energy performance ratings compared with other sectors. According to the Government’s fuel poverty advisory group, 19 per cent of private tenants live in fuel poverty. According to the Chief Medical Officer, the annual cost to the National Health Service of winter-related diseases due to living in cold homes is something like £859 million.
Historically, landlords have had little incentive to improve their properties because the tenants rather than the landlords pay the fuel bills. A substantial coalition of bodies outside this House has now called on the Government to introduce a legal minimum standard of energy efficiency for rented homes and to make it an offence to let a property that does not meet the standard until it has been improved. I put on record that those organisations include: Age UK, Consumer Focus, Citizens Advice, Crisis, the National Childbirth Trust and Macmillan Cancer Support as well as councils up and down the country.
There has already been much discussion about the issue in another place, where an Early Day Motion has been signed by 147 Members of Parliament from across the political spectrum. The Government’s fuel poverty advisory group strongly supports the proposal—noble Lords might like to look at its annual report for 2009 rather than have me read it out here. Further, the Committee on Climate Change has called for mandatory energy efficiency standards to be set for the private rented sector.
The Government’s recognition that special attention needs to be paid to the poor condition of private rented properties is very much in line with views held outside Parliament and among civil society. The Energy Bill contains provisions that could, if taken up, give the Government powers to improve rented homes. My series of amendments aims to strengthen the Bill by introducing minimum standards that both landlords and tenants could both understand and plan for the introduction of.
Let me give a bit of detail about the minimum standard and its influence on fuel poverty. In December, Consumer Focus published a report setting out an impact assessment of Friends of the Earth’s minimum energy standard proposals. In terms of the measures required and their costs, two scenarios were investigated: one was to meet a minimum band E standard by 2015; the other was the impact of raising the minimum standard to band D by 2020. Raising the minimum energy performance certificate to band E for private rented homes would remove 150,000 households in the private rented sector from fuel poverty—25 per cent of households in private rented accommodation are currently living in fuel poverty. Raising the EPC for such homes to band D by 2020 would remove a little over 300,000 households from fuel poverty, which represents 50 per cent of those currently living in fuel poverty in the private rented sector.
The cost of doing that would not be as high as some people might think. A study has found that the cost of meeting the minimum standard would be low and would be well within the levels of finance associated with the Green Deal. In many cases, the cost would be low enough to be easily financed directly by the landlord, with no impact on rents. Some 40 per cent of F-rated and G-rated properties could be improved to EPC band E for less than £1,500, at an average cost of £270 per property. Of those properties in bands E, F and G, two thirds could be improved all the way up to band D for less than £3,000 per property. That is consistent with some work done by the Energy Saving Trust, which concurred that most F and G-rated properties could be improved to band E for less than £3,000. The Energy Saving Trust also said that 60 per cent of F and G-rated private rented properties could be brought up to band E for less than £5,000.
I turn to my amendments to Clause 35. As drafted, Clause 35 limits the categories of domestic short-term lettings that will come within the provisions of Chapter 2 to those categories of tenants that are expressly included within the provisions of the Rent Act 1977 and to assured short-hold tenancies under the Housing Act 1988. Undoubtedly, that captures the bulk of short-term lettings, but it certainly does not capture all forms of dwelling that are owner-occupied. Therefore, the purpose of my amendments is to expand the tenancies and dwellings included in this clause. Amendments 20E to 20J in my name would apply in particular to agricultural workers, whose tenancies have for some time been treated slightly differently from those of other tenants in landlord and tenant legislation.
Historically, many agricultural workers have occupied self-contained accommodation owned by their employers, often at very low rent. The Rent Act 1977 did not apply to tenants who were occupying buildings at no rent or very low rent. Instead, the bulk of agricultural workers are covered by the provisions of the Rent (Agriculture) Act 1976, which offers security of tenure to people occupying buildings at nil or low rent providing that they work in full-time agriculture. In 1989, the provisions of the Housing Act 1988 replaced the provisions of the Rent Act 1977, but again no specific provision was made for agricultural tenants. Living in rural Northumberland, I am very much aware of this issue, and I hope that the Minister will look on this matter favourably.
Amendment 20K—the last of my amendments in this group—would expand the categories of domestic occupiers to include those tenancies currently excluded by Schedule 1 to the Housing Act 1988 and also some houses in multiple occupation. The amendment would also allow the Secretary of State to include other definitions, should that be desirable at some point in the future.
The complication with the tenancies that have been left out is that the Government have used the Rent Act 1977 and the Housing Act 1988 to define a domestic PR property. However, in neither of those statutes was the building the central point. The Rent Act had two main purposes: to establish a fair rent structure and to seek to provide security of tenure for tenants while striking a balance between security and the needs of the landlord. The Housing Act 1988 similarly dealt with security of tenure. A long list of forms of occupation of dwellings were excluded from the Housing Act 1988 because it was considered inappropriate for tenants to have more security than they already had. However, this means that many properties that are actually dwellings will be left out of this Bill. I hope that that explains to the Minister why I think that this is important and that we look a little further at doing that. I beg to move.
Baroness Parminter
I support my noble friend Lady Maddock in her amendments, which seek to extend the reach of the Bill to those who live under short-term residential leases. While the Bill will ensure that the majority of those in the private rented sector will benefit from the Green Deal, about 1.5 million properties with long residential leases are outside the scope of this Bill. Many of those leases require the permission of the landlords for home energy improvements. In some cases, there may be an absolute prohibition on such improvements. I am aware of a leaseholder who is looking to make a home energy improvement of fitting a new gas boiler, but because that requires an external flue he is unable to get his landlord’s consent.
I accept that there are issues around long residential leases. I am also very much aware—and I am grateful—that the department is aware of those issues, but I hope that the department might use the period of the proposed review of the private rented sector to look closely at the issue of long residential leases and at how we might extend the Green Deal to the 1.5 million people who at present have long residential leases and are currently excluded from the benefits of the Green Deal.
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his pretty positive reply. Of course, that is partly dependent on a review. As we will discuss this afternoon, some of us think that the timing of various reviews and actions following from them should be slightly different, so I may disagree with him a little later. However, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Noakes has indicated, Amendment 20MA in my name follows a recommendation from the British Property Federation. The federation makes the important point—which I may have made earlier—that the energy-efficiency supply sector does not have a good record of approaching private rented properties. It is much easier to take the low-hanging fruit provided by the owner-occupier properties, where the owner is the one paying the energy bills. The private rented sector has hitherto not been approached formally—other than perhaps in a number of cases—but that needs to happen. Therefore, the suggestion in my amendment is—as my noble friend Lady Noakes has said—that there should be a clear review of the efforts made to bring this whole process to the attention of both landlords and tenants.
I imagine that many noble Lords will share my experience of having people in their families who are both landlords and tenants—some are landlords and some are tenants. Of course, the biggest single problem is always to get both parties to see that an improvement will be to both their advantages. That will require a considerable effort. All that I am saying is that the review must take account of the efforts that are being and could be made to spread the awareness both of the process and of the mutual advantage that will come to landlords from the enhancement of the value of their property, and to tenants from lower energy bills and perhaps a more comfortable house. That will take some effort. The review must recognise that and form a view on how successful the measures have been to date.
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, further to my noble friend’s comment about the record of the private rented sector in this area, he is absolutely right that we have not seen its efforts in any great quantity. However, I remind him that one or two schemes got grants under the Home Energy Conservation Act. If he cares to look back, I am sure that the Energy Saving Trust has records of the one or two schemes that were quite successful. Unfortunately, nobody ever looked at the statistics to see how those schemes might be grown in the rest of the country, but that is history. I also remember that one very good scheme was initiated by Westminster City Council.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I just hope that we do not underestimate the big role that the British Property Federation and others ought to have in making sure that information about the measures reaches both those who rent and those who let property. I am a little unhappy about the pressure from the British Property Federation. Having been involved in property and in writing about it all my life, I rather think that, despite the efforts that are being made to suggest that somebody else ought to provide the information, those who let property ought to do that. In addition, if there is a problem from the private sector, the British Property Federation and others could certainly take that up.
When the Minister replies, I hope that he will accept that it is not just for the Government to tell people of the advantages available to them; the first people who ought to do that should be those who have the interests of the landlords—and, I hope, the tenants—in mind. It would be a pity if we suggested that that was not a proper role for the industry to take on its shoulders. If this were something that was hurting the industry, the various organisations would be the first to make sure that everyone knew about it. Therefore, I find this whole pressure a bit odd. I hope that your Lordships will not move us towards a position that will underestimate or remove the important role that the organisations should take.
Baroness Maddock
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, in moving Amendment 20P, perhaps I shall half come to the rescue of the previous discussion. Clause 37 refers to action by local authorities. My amendment would stop the introduction of some measures being conditional upon the outcome of the review to be established under Clause 36. My noble friend the Minister has said that he wants things to get going in this sector. We have had a view that perhaps we are trying to get going too quickly.
I agree with the Minister and with my noble friend Lord Teverson that we should do all that we can to encourage this to happen quickly. That is why I am anxious that some things can be done that are not conditional on the review. I think that my amendments in the next group will help us to get going quickly. Making regulations conditional on a review increases the likelihood that landlords will not do anything before 2015. However, if we set a clear minimum standard now to come into force after 2015, it would give landlords absolute clarity that from 2016 they would not be able to re-let a property with an F or G rating, thus allowing a significant time for preparation and encouraging voluntary uptake.
Crucially, the Government’s impact assessment admits that, because use of the powers to regulate is conditional on the outcome of the review, one would not expect landlords to install energy efficiency measures in significant numbers as a direct result of taking these powers. It is therefore assumed that there will be no pre-emptive action by landlords, but we could encourage action beforehand. If we set up a clear, timetabled, minimum standard of legislation now, it would maximise the opportunity for voluntary compliance by landlords and minimise the need for enforcement action later. The current legislation might achieve the reverse. However, a clear signal now will provide certainty for the market; will allow landlords to plan ahead; will allow the supply chains to get their supplies in; and possibly will allow new business models to be developed to serve the private rented sector. That is why I have introduced this amendment to stop the introduction of the measures being conditional on the outcome of the review established in Clause 36.
I will speak further to other amendments, which will give an idea of what else could be happening in local authorities to speed up action in the private rented sector, as many of us want. We are all saying how pleased we are that the Government have grasped the nettle. For goodness’ sake, let us try to be keen and encourage them to get on with it. I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Ullswater)
My Lords, I must advise your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to I will not be able to call Amendments 20PA and 20Q because of pre-emption.
Lord Marland
Perhaps I should clarify that the authorities in Scotland will and can do whatever they want with their own powers. We are acting only as a facilitator for them to consider enacting those powers. I hope that that clarifies the matter for the noble Duke.
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. In a minute, I will be moving further amendments that are about regulation in local authorities. I hear what the Minister says. We may want to return to this another time, depending on the outcome of further discussions on this area.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that, not for the first time, I am grateful to him for his support in this sort of area—the last time being rather long ago in another place. I am very pleased to see the noble Lord here because I know that he is a great enthusiast of the sorts of things that we are trying to put forward in this Bill. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Maddock
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 20S to 20X. What I am trying to do here is to hurry up local authorities’ action since they are best placed to understand the state of the rented sector in their own areas. These amendments are designed to give local authorities a bit more certainty and a better timetable for action. As the Bill stands, local authorities are merely given access to the energy performance certificate database. They will also be allowed to continue to use their existing powers under the housing health and safety rating system. This legislation will not give landlords long-term certainty in advance about what their legal duty is or when they will be required to act. Further, they do not know now whether local authorities will be given a duty to act post-2015. Equally, after 2015 they will have no prior warning of when local authorities are likely to make a request of them or what that request might be. This means that although a small minority of landlords might react by taking their properties out of bands F or G in advance, I think that the vast majority will be encouraged to wait and see. This will considerably delay any action.
Local authorities will also have to take two actions, the first of which is a request and the second is to monitor actions taken and enforce compliance. It would be perfectly legal for landlords to let out bands F and G-rated properties until local authorities get around to issuing them with a request. In the absence of a clear timetable for local authorities, this could be as late as 2020 or beyond, and a landlord would not be committing an offence by letting out a band F or G-rated property until he had been issued with a request by the local authority and had then failed to take action by not claiming an exemption for the property, which he could do by going through a court or tribunal process.
I believe that the measures should be brought forward to 2012 and used to give local authorities an effective tool to make progress on improving the worst of the local private rented sector housing stock at a pace that is appropriate to local circumstances. This is important because local authorities know best what the local circumstances are, so it would be good if we could encourage them and landlords to start taking action sooner.
There is no guarantee, as the Bill is written, that properties will be brought out of bands F or G on the request of local authorities. Indeed, given that the Secretary may determine in regulations what level of energy efficiency was deemed to be too low and therefore requiring improvement, there is no guarantee that, despite the intention as set out in the impact assessment, properties other than those with a G rating will be required to improve. The Bill also does not allow local authorities to carry out works by default, whereby local authorities can carry out general improvement works in other areas and charge the landlord. That would be useful in this area as well; indeed, it is rather more useful than issuing a fine, because the work would actually get done. This flexibility is important to ensure that as many properties as possible are improved rather than simply issuing penalties to landlords, and is something that I know has been called for by the Local Government Association. I have already declared that I am a vice-president of the LGA, and I know that it is keen to act in this area.
The amendments grouped with Amendment 20R try to address some of these problems. Amendment 20R and 20T would bring forward the date of the introduction of local authority improvement notices to 1 April 2012, and would ensure that where a local authority issues a notice to a landlord requesting relevant energy efficiency improvements, those improvements would ensure that the property is brought up to a minimum level of energy efficiency. Amendment 20U would give the Secretary of State the power to establish a local or national register of private rented properties,
“for the purpose of distributing information relevant to this Act”,
to landlords and tenants. This touches on a point made by my noble friend Lady Noakes, who was concerned about information for landlords and tenants. The register could also be used for other purposes designed to help increase the energy efficiency of private rented properties.
Amendment 20V would define energy performance certificate band E as the minimum level of energy efficiency that private rented properties must meet if landlords have been issued with a notice to make relevant energy efficiency improvements by a local authority. It also allows the minimum level to be raised in accordance with the timetable as proposed under Amendment 20W. That will ensure that the minimum energy efficiency level is increased from band E at least once between 2016 and 2020.
Lord Marland
With all due respect, I think that I answered that. I said that it is very unlikely that there will be negative value, but the market makes the judgment if something has gone down in value. If you put a property on the market or to rent, the market determines whether its value has gone down. That is how every price is achieved. I hope that that answers the noble Baroness—she is looking a little bit negative. I cannot imagine that we can set up a system that prescribes that a property is worth this or that amount; the market determines that.
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and to other noble Lords who have taken part in the debate on this group of amendments. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said, when we are looking at some of these very low rated properties, we are not talking about a lot of money to improve them one step up to the next band. I suggested some figures at the beginning and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, repeated some of them. When we discuss this, I think that people are not really looking at what these properties are like. We may be talking about insulation and draught proofing, so some measures will involve quite low amounts of money. Therefore, in persuading tenants to improve the property’s rating, it may not be very much extra that they will be asked to contribute.
I am not quite clear what the Minister was saying in his answers to my amendments. I think that he was saying, “Yes, we understand all of this, and when we eventually get around to making regulations, we might do something a bit like what you are suggesting”. I am not sure whether that is what he was saying, but I will look at what is in the record. Perhaps at some point we can have a discussion about this. If we are keen to get local authorities and landlords working together to improve properties, we need a little more than is on the face of the Bill at the moment.
Lord Marland
Would the noble Baroness allow me to reply? What I am saying is that we must not prescribe regulation now for the private rented sector. This whole Bill is about trying to enable the sector to pick up the Green Deal and run with it. If we start saying, “If you don’t run with it, we’ll do this, that and the next thing”, we will be making a rod for our own back. That is the whole point. I think we are agreed on this particular subject of a review—an early review—and then a second review to work out what the dynamics are. I hope that answers her question; but, as always, I am very happy to extend the invitation to discuss the matter further outside the room.
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, the offer of further discussions might be helpful, because I think that, by using some of the legislation that we have already got and by being a bit clearer about the dates when regulations and so on might come into effect, we might be able to get landlords to start taking action earlier. We may be able to explore that between now and Report stage. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Best
I am speaking to the two amendments grouped with Amendment 20TA; namely, Amendments 21ZA and 21ZB. Further, I think we will probably be able to embrace a bit of 21ZC.
These two proposed new clauses have been prepared by the Association for the Conservation of Energy, which represents 30 organisations in this field, and Friends of the Earth. They are trying to avoid the pitfalls of the Green Deal, of which I am a tremendous supporter, proving to be a bit of a wet blanket for some parts of the private rented sector. They establish a minimum standard of energy efficiency at band E on the energy performance scale, which we suspect is where the Government are going in any case, for all properties that are let from 2016. To put it in the negative, this would make it illegal to let a property after 2016 if it does not accord with the minimum standard set at band E, which is a pretty modest level but one that affects some 350,000 properties in the private rented sector. As we all know, the private rented sector has a much higher number of properties that are in need of bringing up to new standards.
Let me give the reasons why this might be a good plan. Knowing that this legal obligation will kick in in five years’ time would mean that landlords are likely to gear up now to make sure that their properties meet the standard. Their agents will also know that it is coming, so they can prepare for this as a certainty in the future. This follows the same approach that the Government have already determined for commercial properties, where a minimum standard will apply.
Properties that are rated only F and G are in fact classified as a health hazard, a category 1 risk, under the housing health and safety rating system. Action to enforce that measure, however, has proved to be difficult. Local authorities have other fish to fry, they often do not have enough environmental health officers to go round and there are other priorities. This would address the health hazards of people, often on low incomes and vulnerable, who are prone to hypothermia and winter deaths in these low-energy rated properties. It does not put the onus on the tenant, and indeed it is unrealistic to expect tenants in all cases to be bold enough to go through the hassle of requiring their landlord to do something. We should remember that many tenants have short-term tenancies. They do not have security of tenure and, if they fall out badly with their landlord, the tenancy may not be renewed. It is better if there is a regulation outside of the landlord-tenant relationship to do this.
Landlords, and as I mentioned in 60 per cent of cases their agents, are familiar with the gas safety certificate. The new regime that requires you to meet an energy performance certificate standard is just the same as the gas safety certificate. Landlords have all got used to it. Tedious as it may seem, you have to go through the inspection process and the property has to meet the gas safety requirement. This is a health and safety matter as well, so they would have to meet the energy requirement on that same pattern. This is classified as moving into regulation, but it is fairly light-touch bearing in mind that band E is a pretty low level to reach, and it is five years away, giving plenty of time for people to get there.
It gives local authorities a specific measure and a clear duty. They know where they stand and they can get on with it. These clauses would be a helpful addition to the Bill. They also put on the Secretary of State the duty to take the minimum standard up another notch by 2020, since band E still represents a very basic bottom line.
The second proposed new clause here puts some constraints on the requirement to meet a minimum standard over the next five years or face a fine of up to £10,000 if it is ignored. These constraints are that there must be exceptions where the landlord can show that achieving the minimum standard is impractical; it offends against the golden rule. The tenant may refuse to have the works done, although there is still a question mark in my mind following the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, as to what happens when there is a group of tenants of which all but one are keen to see energy efficiency measures in their block of flats or converted house, and one tenant refuses. There may be more to be said on that, but where the single tenant of a single property refuses to have the works done or because the changes would reduce the value of the property, these circumstances would be exceptions and the obligation would not apply.
Secondly, there would need to be a duty placed upon the Secretary of State to establish an appeals process to ensure that all was fair and proper. Thirdly, if in a particular local authority area there is evidence that the new requirement is leading to a shortage of rented properties, which frankly is an unlikely event, the Secretary of State could then suspend the minimum standard for that area. This contingency seems better than a blanket suspension across the whole country on the basis that the number of homes to rent had fallen in one or two specific places, as it would target the places where it happens.
These amendments seek to ensure that for the private rented sector the Green Deal is not a damp squib. They make it pretty certain that the very worst properties will be tackled within the next five years. Landlords will know where they stand, and voluntary action over the years ahead seems highly likely. I was pleased to note that the thinking behind these amendments is endorsed by the Government’s fuel poverty advisory group, by the Committee on Climate Change and by the many MPs who signed the Early Day Motion. I was also going to quote the Mayor of London, but the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, has already done that for me.
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, my name is attached to the amendments to which the noble Lord, Lord Best, has just spoken. I do not intend to say much. It is clear from the amendments I moved earlier that I have a great deal of sympathy for what the noble Lord is saying. Perhaps we can also discuss between the Committee and Report stages whether there is some merit in doing more to encourage the private rented sector and to help local authorities with this work. I support the noble Lord, Lord Best, and I hope the Minister can at least agree to discussions on the detailed proposals that have been put forward.
Lord Marland
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Best, and for the support expressed by my noble friend Lady Maddock. The noble Lord spent a constructive Sunday writing his excellent speech because it has given us a good picture of what is going on in the sector. In many ways I wish he had spoken earlier, because he would have set the scene nicely for some of the debates today, as indeed he did at Second Reading.
Amendments 21ZA and 21ZB would insert two new clauses setting a minimum energy efficiency standard. However, they go further in that they would prevent the renting of properties that do not meet the minimum standard. They would also allow for the Secretary of State to suspend regulations with any local authority area if it is found that regulations are having an adverse effect on supply. Amendment 20TA would also prevent a landlord letting a property if a notice had been served by a local authority but not complied with.
The amendments raise an interesting proposition: that of using a minimum standard to improve performance in the sector and preventing properties that do not meet this new standard from being let. I read them with interest and welcome their intention to create a level playing field in terms of energy efficiency within the sector. However, I cannot accept the proposals for two reasons. First, I reassure the Committee that the provisions as currently drafted in Clause 37 already target the worst performing properties. Secondly, and most important, we will achieve this without setting minimum standards, other than those that have been referenced, which could be viewed as a barrier to new landlords entering the market. We are trying to plot a pragmatic and sensitive course.
Amendment 21ZB would give powers to the Secretary of State to suspend minimum standard regulations in local authority areas where they could be shown to be impacting adversely on the supply of properties available. As I have outlined, it is not our intention to impact on the market; in fact, it is the opposite. We want to create a more attractive rental market for improved properties. The review already creates a safeguard. It will take a very careful look at the impact of potential regulation on the rental market across the country.
I turn to the issue of timing, which we have covered quite frequently. Amendment 21ZA proposes that regulations, if any, be made no later than 1 January 2016. The noble Lord, Lord Best, has already referred to that. I hope that this explains the Government’s position. I am extremely grateful for the very valuable input, but I hope that these amendments will not be pressed.
Baroness Maddock
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 20AA and 20AB. I will be very brief because I believe I have covered quite a lot of this. We also have an amendment coming up later which is a little similar to amendments that I am speaking to here. I have already discussed the fact that I am concerned that we do not have a very good timetable for the regulations. Nevertheless, the Bill allows for some regulations to be made to deal with the worst properties, and that is what I have been assuming in some of my amendments. However, the Bill says that the Secretary of State “may”, and I have asked that it be “must”. If I had been well tutored by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, it would be “must”—I have put “shall”, but I think we all know what I mean, so let us leave it at that for now and not have a long discussion about may, shall and must.
I have already indicated that I think that if landlords are not complying with the regulations for the very worst properties—my noble friend Lord Best said this in speaking to other amendments—and if they are not letting these properties which, frankly, probably none of us in this Room would want to live in, then we need to be a bit clearer about how and when we are going to act. At the moment, under the housing health and safety rating system, where there are health hazards, the local authorities can go in, do the work and charge people for them. It is a far more effective way than fining people, because if we fine people, as I said, the work does not actually get done. It is clear that the Minister could bring in regulations in this legislation and the penalty put forward on the face of the Bill is £5,000. I have suggested that we make it £10,000, but it is clear from my Amendment 20AA that I prefer that we have local authorities going in and doing the work rather than fining, because then you actually get it done. At this stage in proceedings, I will not say anything else, and I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I get the impression that we are coming up against the problem of balance that I referred to in a speech made some hours ago. It is now getting to the point where, if these amendments are accepted, the Bill will expect local authorities to take fairly drastic enforcement action. The noble Lord, Lord Best, will know much more about this than I do, but I have always been given to understand that local authorities already have quite substantial powers under the housing health and safety rating system, which can be used to tackle houses where tenants suffer excess cold and, no doubt, other factors. But the real problem is that these powers are very rarely used. The noble Lord, Lord Best, made the point that local authorities have many other duties, that they do not have enough environmental health officers, and that with the stringencies under which they now have to operate, it is not expected that they will be in a position to recruit more. Faced with pressures on resources and competing priorities, I wonder where the sense is in landing them with still more duties. Indeed, one has to ask what the probability is of such new duties being enforced.
There is no point in substantially increasing penalties and in introducing other measures that enable local authorities to take over houses, improve them and then charge the landlord, if no one is going to enforce them. Increasing the fine from £5,000 to £10,000 will do absolutely nothing if the notices are not enforced. I will sound a note of caution on this. We should not expect local authorities, over the next few years, to take substantial action when they are well known for not using the powers that they already have under the system that I have just mentioned. Again, I am just sounding a note of caution and I hope that the Minister will look at some of these proposals with a fairly cold and analytical eye to assess whether they will improve the Bill and increase the chance of the objectives that we all support being achieved, or whether this will be the point at which landlords simply throw up their hands and say, “Blow the lot of you, we are not going to re-let”.
Lord Marland
I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Maddock for putting forward the amendment. Obviously it has considerable merit. The greater the fine, the greater the determination we show to achieve what we set out. On this occasion, contrary to the last, I agree with my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding—generally I agree totally with the noble Lord—that £5,000 is a reasonable limit. It is a considerable amount of money that is in line with existing limits for the amounts that local authorities can fine landlords for letting out substandard and hazardous accommodation. On that basis, and with due respect, I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment. As she rightly says, we have spoken to other amendments covering various parts of the Bill, and no doubt we will in future as well.
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, as I was only speaking to that amendment, I cannot withdraw it. However, I can withdraw Amendment 20Z that led this group. Given the discussions that we have had, I am prepared to do that. However, in doing so, I will say that it would be helpful to have some discussion about how we can encourage landlords to improve their properties, particularly the very bad ones—I hope that that will happen—and about how we can involve local authorities. I am particularly keen on local authorities because of some of the powers that they have under other legislation, which I will not mention again by name. That is one reason why I am keen to see them involved. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 20Z.