Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Wednesday 11th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I shall also speak briefly and, largely, to endorse the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. The impact assessment does not give a rationale for why the Government have made this decision, which we seek at this point. It would be useful to understand the reasons for the decision having been taken; without such information, we are not quite clear as to the advantages. Who was consulted on this, and what are the benefits to consumers and regulators? Surely it would put more pressure on the regulators to identify wrongdoing. Have the Government conducted investigations that take any of this into account? The Minister has a chance to reassure both of us who have spoken in this short debate on the reasons for the Government’s position.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I shall say a brief word. My noble friend Lord Sharkey and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, have both been very calm on this issue, but I shall admit that, frankly, I am outraged. The obligations that exist for so many people in the public sector to report misconduct—on teachers, police officers and members of the NHS—are taken as absolute requirements. There is no question of whether they are costly; it is understood that the importance of propriety and integrity in all those activities is crucial. I suggest that, after the years that we have been through following the financial crisis, no one should doubt that integrity in this sector is absolutely vital.

When we sat on the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, we discussed whistleblowing extensively. Every single institution that we talked to and everyone we could identify had in place mechanisms for whistleblowing; the problem is that none of them was effective. The kind of issues that were reported through whistleblowing systems were situations such as when someone had noticed someone sliding a £5 note out of a cashier’s desk—they were on that kind of scale. So none of the major abuses, whether it was PPI, the LIBOR scandal, the mishandling of credit issues or money-laundering, came to the surface through any kind of whistleblowing system. This measure—the statutory requirement to report a breach when someone sees or recognises that it is happening—is one of the few mechanisms that we could conceive of to try to counter that particular set of problems. Without exception, everybody who gave evidence to the parliamentary commission talked about the importance of making whistleblowing much more effective. So far as I can see, there is no replacement to this requirement that is effective, that has been proposed—and, frankly, if there is a burden, surely any burden is significantly smaller than living with the consequences of sustained and ongoing abuse.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for provoking this short debate. I heed what the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, have said. I shall try to explain the Government's position. I need to examine the very insightful comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and may want to return to some of them in writing. If I do not address them here, I shall endeavour to do so in writing.

At first glance, this seems an obvious and straightforward requirement to impose on authorised persons. As the noble Lord will be aware, this requirement was introduced by the coalition Government through the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013. It is through that planned implementation of this provision that we have learnt that it is simply disproportionate.

Before I go into more detail, I reassure noble Lords that this does not mean that firms will be under no obligation to report wrongdoing to the regulators. First, a separate proviso in the 2013 Act will still apply: the requirement for firms to notify regulators that they have taken disciplinary action against an individual subject to the conduct rules, be it through dismissal, a reduction in pay or a written warning. Secondly, this requirement builds on the regulators’ existing principle for business that firms must tell them of anything that may be of interest to them. If a significant issue arose with the conduct of a member of staff that for some reason did not lead to disciplinary action, the firm would still need to consider whether it would be appropriate to alert the regulators.

In this context, the Government believe that a blanket requirement to report all known or suspected breaches of the conduct rules is disproportionate. In particular, an obligation to report suspected breaches is potentially open-ended and wide ranging for it forces firms to work out the point at which possible indications of breaches of rules of conduct would amount to a genuine suspicion. Then the firm would have to train staff to spot and assess those indications, and finally firms would need systems—

[Baroness Kramer]

The argument the Minister has made suggests that he does not believe that whistleblowing is a justified process. Almost every whistleblower who raises a suspicion is very unlikely to be able to present a signed and sealed case. It is surely the responsibility of the organisation where the whistleblowing has taken place to explore that. In fact, they constantly guarantee that that is exactly what they will do. The Minister is now saying that that is far too onerous. I find that incredible.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am not saying that. I am saying that the process as a whole is potentially too onerous. I heed what the noble Baroness says, and of course whistleblowing is important. I shall continue, and we can continue to have this debate.

Finally, firms would need systems to ensure that the information is captured and transmitted to regulators, but it does not stop there. Having been notified of a suspicion, the regulators would have to decide whether to investigate and then, if appropriate, to consider what action to take. No doubt there would be many cases where there was only suspicion and nothing more and no action would be taken, but all cases would have to be investigated to some extent, and it would be difficult for regulators to do nothing at all once they had been notified.

Noble Lords should also note that, although the Government believe that an inflexible requirement to report all known and suspected breaches of conduct rules by all employees subject to them is inappropriate, the regulators can impose more targeted proportionate rules in this area if it supports the pursuit of their objectives.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, raised costs. The costs in the impact assessment are based on the detailed cost-benefit analysis published by the regulators when they set out how they would implement the regime. I understand it is available on the FCA website, but I will write to the noble Lord and all interested Peers on this point. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

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To the public, debates about the banks appear dense and overtechnical. When I say to colleagues, “I am in the Bank of England debate today”, they look as though I am some strange monster who is obsessed with technical details because, although the banking system is so important to them and the economy, it is so complex and ununderstandable that they feel that they cannot participate. But for ordinary people, the intent of this amendment is straightforward. It means that providers must answer two questions when selling and managing products and services: not only “Can you do it?”, but also “Should you do it?” when looked at from the point of view of the interests of the consumer. I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I do not think that I can improve on anything that has been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, because she understands these issues with such clarity and works so extensively in this field. In a strange way, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, made the argument for how a duty of care should be at the heart of everything that banking institutions and financial institutions do. I hope very much that the Government will take on board the importance of embedding these kinds of responsibilities deeply within the requirements for the financial services industry.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, what became evident both during and after the crash was that financial providers had failed to exercise any duty of care towards consumers across the sector that the industry is supposed to serve. The amendment before us was previously moved by my noble friend Lady Hayter, and I draw largely on her experiences as a member of the Financial Services Consumer Panel. The cases she worked on during her time at the FSCP were, among others, high loan-to-value mortgages and high loan-to-income mortgages. This was plainly about selling products to people who could not afford them with no consideration of their interests. This was done in spite of the fact that should circumstances change, those people would have no way of repaying their loans. As time went on and the number of loans increased, each one as reckless as the last, no account was taken of the hurt to individual borrowers or of the far wider group of consumers whose house prices fell in the subsequent crash, while future loans dried up and repayment terms became unsustainable.

The amendment would ensure that financial services had a duty of care to their consumers collectively as well as on a one-to-one basis with their clients. Case law provides for a duty of care across the financial services sector, but it is clear that that is not enough. Despite this, the Government have continued to resist writing it into legislation and have relied only on case law. The first part of the amendment would establish a fiduciary duty that would demand a higher standard of care for direct consumers, and the second part would extend that general duty to all consumers across the sector. This would fill a gap which currently exists in the financial services sector. If it were to be introduced alongside the new extended senior managers and certification regime, it could bring about a cultural change in the financial services sector that the Government, the Treasury Select Committee and the Bank of England have all said is necessary.

The experience of many of us of the financial sector has moved from a position where as a generality we expected that we could trust the industry with our money and for appropriate advice. The crash has completely destroyed that trust, so an amendment like this, if accepted, could help to bring it back. Confidence in the sector remains dangerously low and something has to be done to restore it. Perhaps this duty of care would provide a route back to public trust.

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[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I hope that the Government will think carefully about these proposals. I declare an interest, and therefore perhaps some knowledge of this, in the sense that I am chairman of the Association of Independent Professional Financial Advisers, am on the board of Castle Trust and also look after the Association of Mortgage Intermediaries, so this is an area in which I have a particular interest.

First, I say to the Committee that proper reporting is a crucial part of ensuring that we get changes in the world in which we live. Transparency has been brought to us partially because of the internet—we now expect to know and to be able to judge on what we know. I hope that the Government recognise that this is not an additional burden, because any financial business ought to be thinking about these things. It is not acceptable that people should carry on business without asking themselves, “Is what I do sustainable?”. If they do carry on business without thinking about that, it seems to me that it is not very good for the business. In other words, this is not a burden in the sense that we are asking business to do something that would not contribute to its own success; we are asking it to do something that is essential for its own success, and I am sorry that the industry itself has not come to the Government with its own scheme about how it should do that, because it is crucial for the future.

Secondly, when you talk to people in the financial world about these issues, they recognise them. Many of them are increasingly concerned that they should use their financial strength to promote and protect the future not only of their own businesses but of Britain, Europe and the whole globe. I think that there is a readiness to accept such a measure.

Thirdly, there is nothing that is as damaging in this area as a whole series of different ways of reporting different bits of information, so that people—sometimes without very good reason or sometimes with another agenda—can make false comparisons, because the comparisons are so difficult. It is in the interests of the industry that there should be some basic, simple and clear way of comparing one business with another.

The fourth thing that seems to me to be important is that we should recognise what a crucial role the financial services industries play in the promotion of sustainability. Choices that they make today will make a huge difference tomorrow; the choices that they make today will make an even bigger difference the day after tomorrow. We need thinking which is long term. I have been asked to speak at a whole series of meetings recently, put on not by those who are concerned with sustainable investment or socially responsible investment but by straightforward, ordinary investment businesses which believe that this is the route down which they have to go. We are not pushing people to do things that they do not want to do; we are making sure that what they do is comparable, usable and helpful. So this is an important measure for that purpose.

The last reason why I want to ask the Government to think seriously about this proposal is very simple: we need to think about these matters in every aspect of our lives. We cannot deal with the issues of climate change in particular or of environment more generally if we think that they are the perquisite of the Department of Energy and Climate Change, of Defra or even of the Department for Transport; this has to be part of what we do naturally, inevitably, all the time when we make decisions. We have to get into that mode and that mood. Therefore, I would hope that we were thinking of doing these things in a lot of other areas when we come to them.

However, we must make sure that people are not misled. I do not want to rub salt into the wounds, but the recent Volkswagen debacle reminds us how dangerous it is if we mismeasure. Measurement is a crucial part of making sure that people do things. If it is not measured, it is not done—we know that; if it is mismeasured, then it is done badly. We are trying here to suggest to the Government that ensuring that there is a sensible way of reporting what people are doing is a vital part of this legislation.

I commend to my noble friend the action of the Government on modern slavery. I do not think that there is any doubt that on all sides of the Chamber we have welcomed the Modern Slavery Act. What that Act does is tell people that they have to report what they have done to avoid modern slavery in their supply chain. That is very similar and parallel to what we are asking for here: to give the public, the campaigners and the people who care information which they deserve and ought to have.

I end by reminding my noble friend that a recent study done on behalf of the Navy discovered that there was very little difference in the way that people got information, and what they expected to get, between officers and men, men and women, and people based here in Britain and those based abroad. The one difference was between those under 30 and those over 30. Those who were under 30 expected to be able to know. This was done some years ago, so I suspect it is now those under 35, but the fact is that the internet generation does not understand why anybody does not understand that they want to know. If you ask people of that age, they do not understand why you—referring to me rather than my noble friend—do not expect information to be available. This is the world we live in.

I hope the Government will take these propositions very seriously. It may not be the right amendment and there are some bits of it that I think I would rewrite—all sorts of things might be improved, and the noble Lord who moved it on behalf of the noble Baroness would probably agree that we should settle for a different phraseology. However, we want to make sure that everybody making decisions in the financial services area recognises that they are making them in this context and reports them so that others can see that they have taken those decisions not lightly or for short-term reasons but in the context in which we all live—a world which is threatened by the most catastrophic danger that we have knowingly faced in our history.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, and the comments of the noble Lords, Lord McFall and Lord Deben. The amendment addresses an issue which the Government now have to take seriously. The speech of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, reminded me of the old adage: “What you measure, you manage”. By measuring and reporting, which surely is not beyond any corporation of any size, we change the whole culture of short-termism which dominates at the moment throughout the financial services industry, and create the potential for many more players to start to look at the longer term and at issues of sustainability. Surely, when we have been doing so much to try to ensure financial stability, which is a long-term issue, backing that up with the kind of tools that are proposed in this amendment makes a great deal of sense.

I am very much a believer that one of the greatest risks that we face, if not the greatest risk, is climate change. However, we are also looking at a time when new technologies are disrupting the whole established structure, and we have to take that on board in some way. We are also looking at great population changes—migration and demographic changes—and this amendment seems to me to be rather good at highlighting that all those big, disruptive changes need to be captured to some extent in this reporting system.

I hope that the Government will take this seriously. I agree that no one takes particular pride in authorship of the language on these occasions, but this is about getting the principle properly embedded so that the Bank and the regulators can carry out their tasks in a way that deals not just with immediate risk but with the long term and encourage the financial services industry to play over that long-term arena as well. We have financial services businesses which are recognising the importance of long-term sustainability and are doing it exceedingly well, but it is very hard for them to communicate with potential investors when differences in reporting strategies and language make that communication so confused. Providing a level playing field in terms of reporting means that those who focus on this can get their message out and that investors to whom this is important can then shape their decisions based on that comparable information.

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There are also a host of practical issues concerning the administration of the policies and tracking the lives of annuitants, and the impact on benefits and social care arrangements of potentially swapping an income flow for a capital sum. The Bill enables the extension of Pension Wise so that guidance can be available, and we support that, but it will also be important to understand how advice will form part of the equation. All in all, given the ongoing challenges of managing the 2015 pension freedoms, not to mention the new state pension, we wonder why this should be such a priority, especially as, in the Government’s judgment, for most people retaining their annuity is likely to be the best option. I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer]

I shall make one relatively small point. This is an area where I do not pretend expertise. At Second Reading, I referred to the importance of both guidance and advice and the significance of distinguishing between the two. At the moment, many people who are retiring will have spent a large part of their careers accruing pension benefits through a defined benefits plan and a relatively small proportion of their career in defined contributions, so for many people now the discretionary pot is probably quite small and many of them may feel that they can therefore make decisions without advice. That picture will rapidly change as a generation comes forward for whom defined contributions have essentially been the framework within which they have provided for most of their pension. We are moving into a situation where advice will become more significant, so this problem needs resolution. I ask that any measure the Government take recognises that this is not a front-loaded problem but a back-loaded problem, so they need to be sure that they are constantly expanding the relevant resources.

[Baroness Drake]

My Lords, I shall speak to paragraph (f)(i) and (ii) in the amendment which refer to the secondary annuity market, and I draw the attention of the Committee to my registered interests, in particular my membership of the board of the Pensions Advisory Service, which is a delivery body for the current Pension Wise.

In the summer Budget Statement, the Chancellor confirmed that he wishes existing annuity owners to have the freedom to sell their annuity income but announced that plans for a secondary annuities market would be delayed until 2017 to ensure that there is an in-depth package to support consumers. The Pensions Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, confirmed that the delay was to ensure consumer protection adding:

“We can’t launch without safeguards”.

It is important, as paragraph f(i) in the amendment provides, first to identify very clearly the risks in this market and the potential advantages and disadvantages to the consumer of converting an income for life into a cash sum before agreeing the regulations with regard to guidance to be provided to individuals considering trading their annuities. If the infrastructure of such a secondary annuity market were to be put in place, it is not yet clear who would be the buyers of the annuities. There are still lots of unknowns about how that market would operate. Until we understand more about how that secondary market will operate and what regulatory restrictions will be imposed, it will be difficult to assess whether customers are able to get a good deal. If an individual got a poor deal in the first place, selling the annuity on would not necessarily reverse that; indeed, it could make it worse. If, as the Chancellor argues, the pensioner freedom reforms were needed in part because the annuity market was not working in the best interests of all consumers for the simpler proposition of selling someone an annuity, why would it be expected that the reverse secondary market, where someone would resell an existing annuity, would work any better?

Some people will certainly be tempted to cash in their annuity for what looks like a large sum but their annuity may be bought at a heavily discounted price. Selling their guaranteed income could prove expensive because of the cost of individually underwriting each transaction. There will be costs to trading, complex pricing systems and consumer vulnerability to poor behaviour by some firms. So many pensioners may not be better off as a result, and it may be difficult to assess whether the lump sum that they have been offered is a fair swap for what they would be giving up. Actually, though, once they have given that up, the decision is irreversible.

The Bill refers to protecting the interests of those who have an interest in a particular annuity, and that certainly needs to be considered. What is the situation in a joint life annuity? What is the definition of those who have an interest? How will their interest be protected? What if a person is not named on a joint life annuity contract? These may seem irritating points of detail, but they will be matters of significant substance for some people who may be the beneficiaries of an income stream from an annuity.

The Government have also advised, as my noble friend Lord McKenzie said, that they want to consider how to explain the interaction between annuity income, capital and deprivation laws in the welfare, social care and council tax reduction system—something that we rather tripped over when implementing pension freedoms. In making that clear to people who are considering selling their annuity, the guidance would need to explain clearly the implications of that interaction.

In the secondary annuity market, the appropriate form of consumer protection has to be an integral part of any proposals to allow people to resell annuities, and therefore a clear identification and consideration of the safeguards and guidance that are appropriate is required before regulations come into force. It is important to be assured that they are actually fit for purpose. Creating a secondary annuity market is certainly not a simple proposition, which presumably is why the Chancellor has delayed his plans until 2017, although I accept that the proposed expansion of pension guidance to those considering selling their annuity is to be welcomed. However, it will be important for Parliament to understand what guidance will be delivered, and how, to people looking to trade in a secondary annuity market, because such a market will come with risk and complexity and that has to be reflected in the quality and comprehensiveness of the guidance provided. This is not going to be a proposition without problems. Some people have suggested introducing a requirement to take independent advice but even that is not a simple proposition, not least if a requirement to take advice significantly reduces the value of the transaction to the seller.

Lastly, the complexity of a secondary annuity market means it is essential that the pension guidance that is provided is of a high quality, delivered by people with the necessary skills and expertise. This is not going to be a straightforward set of guidance. Reflecting on experience to date, it is very important that those who bear responsibility for signposting to the guidance those who want to trade in the annuity market are not organisations with conflicts of interest in whether that guidance is followed. Sometimes, being better informed and better guided does not make people such good customers. Given that this is even more complex than the pension freedoms market, it is really important to get this proposition right.

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[Baroness Kramer]

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, for allowing me to put my name to his very fine amendment, and also for drafting it in such a way that I could arrange the conversation beyond just the matter of mutuals. I very much support his comments on mutuals. They are important to our past, our present and our future.

The noble Lord commented on the regulatory scope available to the PRA in dealing with the sector, which I believe is governed by CRD IV, the relevant European directive. He will know that there is a great deal of scope for flexibility under that directive precisely to recognise the various needs of mutual—and similar and smaller—institutions across quite a wide range of facets. It is a flexibility of which the PRA has essentially not availed itself. Since those flexibilities were largely negotiated by the UK with the domestic variety in mind, it seems a little extraordinary that we have not taken advantage of them. I recommend to the Government that they might want to have an appropriate conversation with my soon-to-be noble friend Lady Bowles, who will shortly be coming to this House. She was a member—in effect, chair—of ECON, the Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs within the EU. She can provide some helpful advice and direction on this issue.

I have said many times in this House, and I shall repeat it again today, that in the UK we are missing a layer of banking. In Germany, regional government—the Länder and municipalities—are able to sponsor banking institutions. The financial institutions provide the backbone to Germany’s small and medium-sized businesses, the Mittelstand. During times of recession that banking layer provided ongoing support to those companies because they understood them and their remit was such that they had to find their routes to profit from within that scope of geography and companies. It has been a very successful model and we have no equivalent here in the UK.

In the United States, which we also very much recognise as a competitor, local community and regional banks also play a much more significant role in supporting both individuals and small businesses. The community development movement in the US, which is very much local, has something in excess of $30 billion of assets under management. It is highly significant. It comes out of the US history of local banking, strengthened by the Community Reinvestment Act which was introduced in the late 1970s, largely as a civil rights measure, to deal with the red lines that major banks had drawn around ethnic minority communities, as they were not lending into those communities. That has been balanced out by the Community Reinvestment Act. It provided the Obama Administration with a very significant route to channel funds to small businesses during the recession in the US and again played a very significant role in making sure that those small businesses could be resilient.

By contrast, following the financial crisis, the major mainstream banks in the UK largely withdrew from SME funding. The Government tried to support various programmes and schemes, including the growing but still small P2P industry, to fill something of that gap and vacuum. However, that does not overcome the fact that we still do not have the appropriate layer of banking to provide the community and local perspective which enables companies to rely on ongoing support from financial institutions in both good times and bad.

I think that if you spoke today to the Federation of Small Businesses, it would say that even though we are in recovery, most of the mainstream banks have not returned to lending to SMEs and, where they do, it is frequently property lending, or at least property is required to provide collateral for what should be cash-flow loans, and that the banks are still fairly slow to come to decisions. Having been on this House’s sub-committee on SMEs and export finance, I know that it was evident that small businesses found it extremely difficult to source any kind of financing for exports. Even when they had a long history of exports and were well established, it was still very difficult and very expensive to find that kind of financing in the UK. Therefore, it is reasonably self-evident that we are missing a layer of banking. Frankly, the regulator has never addressed that issue but has always waited passively for the market to come forward rather than taking positive action itself.

A combined report from Newcastle and Coventry universities was recently published and states:

“In 2013, the unmet demand of individuals and businesses excluded from mainstream finance (‘the finance gap’) was estimated at around £6 billion per annum”.

That is a huge figure and it seems to me that the regulator must begin to pay attention to it.

During the passage of the Financial Services Act 2012, the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and I proposed a measure to require the banks to disclose their lending practices in detail and by postcode. That led to a voluntary framework for the disclosure of bank lending which came into effect in December 2013 and was supported by HM Treasury and BIS. According to a recent letter sent to the Treasury from the Community Investment Coalition, it is starting to have a real impact. The letter states that in 2014,

“Coventry University and Newcastle University were commissioned by Big Society Capital, Citi, the Community Investment Coalition and Unity Trust Bank to analyse the data and assess its value in supporting increased market competition and interventions to overcome financial inclusion”.

That is a very interesting report. It is supported by a sibling report, as it were, from the University of Sheffield, which looked at mortgages.

The only conclusions one can come to from reading those reports is that lending across the UK is incredibly haphazard. The data do not yet allow sufficient fineness of analysis, if you like. I hope very much that the Government will look at whether or not more measures are necessary to provide appropriate data to the degree required to enable proper analysis to take place. However, it is very clear that different parts of the country have very different experiences as regards access to lending. Strangely enough, in the London area, for example, access to lending for small businesses seems to be very much less than one would expect compared with other parts of the country. It will be very helpful when we finally have those data because they will expose where the system continues to fail. Regardless of that, I hope the Government will see that there is a role that must be played by the regulator as well as by the Government in ensuring that the patchiness and inadequacy of banking facilities for small businesses and individuals is countered. I ask the Government to look seriously at the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, because it begins to tackle that particular set of issues.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, both on his amendment, for which he has secured widespread support, including from this Bench, and on the way in which he detailed the key arguments behind it, which I know the Government will take seriously. It is somewhat unnecessary for me to fill in any of the interstices that the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, may have left—which were not many—because the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, has certainly emphasised the significant point, which is that British banking needs to be a good deal more diverse than it is at present.

After all, the Competition and Markets Authority disclosed its findings last month from its review of competition in the retail banking market and found—predictably—that the four largest banks had long dominated the British scene, stifling competition that would give consumers and businesses a better deal. We all know the limited success that has been obtained by the various reforms to make the switching of accounts easier. The British people, I am afraid, are somewhat inured to minor blandishments when it comes to their bank accounts, so there is a need for much more imaginary thought at the centre on how we can make our financial provision more diverse.

We have support from the Treasury Select Committee. The chair, Andrew Tyrie, has written to the CMA to ask it to report back before the Budget in March next year regarding the 8% surcharge on bank profits. He wants to know what impact that has had on the big four and what implications it has for the wider banking sector. It is clearly the case, he believes, that one size does not fit all. That phrase has obtained throughout this short debate and is one to which I entirely subscribe. The Minister will be all too well aware that the Building Societies Association has made it clear that the problems encountered by financial mutuals in recent years almost certainly would have been fewer if there had been greater diversity in the sector.

I think that the case for this amendment has been made strongly. No doubt the noble Lord will be withdrawing it on this occasion but the purpose of this debate is to give the Government the chance to show a constructive response to what we all recognise is a real issue with regard to British banking. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, cited the German position. Is it not somewhat extraordinary that even under the so-called northern powerhouse, our great cities do not have individual banks? They no longer have individual building societies, either. That says something about the structure of finance in this country, which surely the Government should address in the context of a Bill about the most significant banking structure of them all—the Bank of England.