Childcare Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Nash(9 years, 1 month ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, I would like to take this opportunity to express my thanks to noble Lords for their support, challenge and dedication throughout the passage of this Bill. I very much appreciate the expertise that Peers have brought to the House on the complex subject of childcare, and I hope noble Lords feel that I have listened to concerns raised and addressed them appropriately. I particularly would like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, who has provided strong and heartfelt opposition on this Bill, and I greatly appreciated working with her on the education brief over the last Parliament. I will miss her on the education brief, and I wish her well with her new one. I will, of course, be keeping noble Lords up to date with the progress of the Bill, and am committed to holding a meeting on the funding review following the spending review. I look forward to working with noble Lords on the Education and Adoption Bill.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for making time available during the passage of the Bill and outside of the official process to meet with noble Lords on a number of occasions. It was very much appreciated and helped to clarify a great many issues. I also thank the Bill team for their sterling efforts in producing a Bill at short notice and in difficult circumstances. The Bill is leaving this place in a better shape than when it arrived, suitably amended but with many questions still unanswered, so I look forward to hearing about further positive progress when the Bill is considered in the Commons and in other meetings that the Minister may be organising, so that we can achieve our shared and important goal of increasing free childcare for working parents.
Childcare Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Nash(9 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Nash
My Lords, I would like to speak to Amendments 1, 30 and 31 tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones, Lady Pinnock and Lady Tyler and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig. I understand the concerns that the noble Baronesses and the noble Lord are seeking to address through these amendments. I share their view that we need to get the funding for the entitlement right. Much of the success of the extended entitlement rests on sustainable levels of funding. However, I do not agree that these amendments are the right way to deliver that outcome. Indeed, it would simply risk delaying substantially implementation for working parents, which has been widely welcomed. This Government have already shown their commitment to ensuring that funding levels will be sufficient to deliver the 30 hours’ free childcare for the working parents of 3 and 4 year-olds. The Prime Minister himself has already committed to an increase in the rate paid to providers; indeed, we were the only party to commit to such an increase during the general election.
We have acted swiftly upon our promises. Within a month of the general election, we brought forward this legislation and committed to early implementation of the extended entitlement for parents in some areas from 2016, so that we can test the provision, which is so important. We definitely do not wish to delay, because although 2017 may seem a long way off, there is a lot to get right. At the June budget, we made financial provision for the extended entitlement, announcing £840 million, including Barnett consequentials, in 2018-19. That is the current estimated cost before the average hourly rate that providers receive is raised and indicates a further commitment by this Government to the delivery of the extended entitlement. We have listened and addressed the concerns of a sector that has been asking for a review of funding for early years, by establishing a review on the cost of providing childcare as soon as possible. As I have said, this is the most detailed national review of childcare that has ever been conducted. It is a very complicated issue, as noble Lords heard yesterday, and we do not believe that we should delay.
I hope we can all agree that it is clear that we share the same objective—one which the noble Baronesses and the noble Lord have set out in their amendments. We, too, want to establish a sustainable funding solution that addresses concerns about the delivery of the existing entitlement and supports providers to deliver the extension to the entitlement. We have no interest in a solution that will not work for providers. Under the last Government we expanded childcare very substantially and successfully and we fully intend to do so again.
Noble Lords raised the question of funding and the funding review in Committee. Understandably, there were many questions about how the review would be conducted and what it would cover. We have sought to provide more information about the analysis of the first findings of the call for evidence, the terms of reference and the policy statement. The Government have also made very clear their intention to publish the final report from the review following the spending review. The findings from the review will feed directly into the spending review, which is imminent, as we all know. That is where decisions about future funding rates will be made. It is important therefore that the review is complete in order to inform this process. The Budget and the spending review are the appropriate times for the Government to set out their spending plans and Parliament debates those plans at the appropriate time. Legislating for the childcare entitlement is not the time to have this debate.
However, I have listened to concerns raised by noble Lords about ensuring that this Bill is scrutinised by Parliament once the Government’s spending plans are made clear at the spending review. Third Reading will be on 26 October and the Bill will then be sent to the other place in the usual way. It is then only four weeks until completion of the spending review. Although noble Lords would not expect me to be able to comment on the precise timetabling of business in the other place, there are no plans for the Bill to reach Royal Assent before that review concludes. I hope that noble Lords will find that statement helpful.
A delay to the coming into force of key provisions of the Bill will have a knock-on effect on the ultimate delivery of childcare to parents, delaying our consultation process as well as the start of early implementation. The purpose of the review is to provide a robust analytical underpinning for a funding rate that is fair for providers and delivers value for money to the taxpayer.
The review team is considering a significant body of existing and new evidence, such as published research and academic studies, and evidence provided by sector representatives, as well as studies recently commissioned by the Department for Education conducted by a number of consultancy companies. Some noble Lords have met the review team which, led by the department’s chief analyst, is working on two key analytical strands. I think that noble Lords found the meeting yesterday with the chief analyst helpful. I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, was not able to come yesterday, as I think she would have found it very informative. However, if she would like me to set up a separate meeting for her to meet the chief analyst, I would be delighted to do so.
The first of these two analytical strands looks at providers’ costs and the second considers the supply and demand side of the childcare market. Both are complicated and key to informing our work. The review team recognises that there is huge variation in costs between different providers and between children with varying needs, and the analysis and modelling will allow scenario testing to understand the drivers and consequences of these differences, which will inform our testing in the early-implementation pilot studies.
In Committee many noble Lords raised the importance of the review looking at the costs of providing childcare for children with additional needs. It is absolutely right that it should do so, and we are grateful to those specialist providers and charities that have helped us with this question. We will extend the analysis in the review to consider the characteristics of the families that will be eligible for the new entitlement, including which families it will help back into work or help to increase their income. Details like this are extremely complicated, yet we are clear that they need to be considered carefully to ensure that the system is funded to support all children who wish to access it.
The Government greatly value the opportunity to engage with those who are directly affected by our policies. We have been engaging extensively with all of these groups, both through face-to-face meetings and via other channels. Key organisations in the sector such as the National Day Nurseries Association have welcomed the extended entitlement and have been key partners in the delivery of the review of the cost of childcare. While we are aware of their concerns on the delivery of the extended offer, we have sought their involvement in the development of our policies and the review in particular.
Noble Lords will have seen the report we published on 2 October on the analysis of the responses to our call for evidence. We had over 2,000 responses, the majority from providers—and, as I have said, already over 1,000 providers have come forward, wanting to be involved in the pilot studies. These responses gave us very useful information, which is informing the content of the review. The findings from the call for evidence will help us put into context the work we are doing on understanding providers’ costs. The review team has followed up to gather more detailed information from some of the providers that responded to the call for evidence.
As part of our plans for engaging with stakeholders we have also held a series of round tables over the summer across the country. The round tables have been a valuable opportunity to engage with providers face to face and to tease out some of the issues that were raised in the call for evidence, building on the significant body of evidence that we are considering and looking at the challenges that providers will face in delivering the extended entitlement, while always remembering that the providers would not be doing their jobs properly if they were not asking for more money, because we are, after all, in a negotiation with them.
The childcare sector is healthy, vibrant and growing. It has grown substantially in recent years—by 12% over the three years from 2009 to 2012. It is not a sector that is severely underfunded, and the number of providers offering places under the entitlement has also continued to increase. The market has demonstrated that it is able to respond to the extension of the free entitlement. We just need to look at the rollout of the entitlement for disadvantaged two-year olds, which was introduced in the last Parliament.
I turn now to the proposal of the noble Baronesses and noble Lord for a review to be independent. In coming to a decision about the most appropriate type of review, the timings of different review options, as well as the cost to the taxpayer, were significant factors leading to our decision for this to be a government review with an element of external validation and scrutiny. We determined that the most appropriate approach would be a cross-government review with expert support from outside.
We all know that there is a rigorous and time-bound process supporting any government spending provisions, particularly when increases to particular budgets are involved. Our priority has been to secure our knowledge and understanding of providers’ costs and to inform the discussions on sustainable funding rates during the spending review this autumn. An independent review would have taken significant time to set up and its findings would, therefore, not have been available to feed in to the spending review. This is a vital point. It was important that we move quickly to set up the review and meet our commitment to providers to increase the rate.
We believe strongly that the review under way strikes the correct balance of needing to move quickly and thoroughly. If we now delay, it would be for a considerable period of time because, as I have outlined, the issues here are complicated and it would take considerable time for an independent review to get its mind round it. This would put under threat the timing of delivering the full offer in 2017, because it would delay the consultation, the regulations and, most importantly, the pilot schemes.
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, for his comments on this. He so ably argued and explained why a delay would be a bad idea, and grasped quickly the fact that it would not be a short delay.
I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for his comments about the impact that the Bill will have on social mobility, as it lifts more families into work or into more work.
As for the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, I know that she is very experienced in the field of local authorities. I found some of her comments yesterday particularly helpful. As for the wider envelope and taking that into account, I do not know about that, but I will take it back. My noble friend Lady Evans will talk later about cross-subsidies, but I can assure the noble Baroness that this review is very comprehensive, taking into account all the issues that local authorities will face, and I will take her points back.
I hope that I have provided sufficient reassurance as to the rationale for the way in which the Government have decided to conduct this review and the robustness of the processes that we are following. As I set out, the outcome of the review will be published later in the autumn, as, of course, will the spending review. It will provide sufficient explanation of the Government’s intentions and the next steps, and will be made available to Parliament. As I have said, there are no plans for the Bill to reach Royal Assent before that review is completed. I am happy to ensure that there will be further opportunity for this House to scrutinise the details of the legislation after the spending review has been published. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, I would be happy to host a further meeting with the funding review team after the spending review, if noble Lords would find that helpful.
As I will outline when we debate a later group of amendments tonight, the Government are proposing that the secondary legislation under the Bill will be subject to the approval of both Houses. This will provide an opportunity for further debate on the details of entitlement, once the funding review has concluded.
I hope noble Lords will agree that placing in primary legislation a requirement to conduct a review, which is already under way, is not necessary and could in fact delay the positive progress that has already been made if the Government were required to stop and begin again once the Bill receives Royal Assent. I therefore urge the noble Baroness and the noble Lords to withdraw their amendment.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, first, I would like to thank noble Lords who have spoken in support of our amendments. I also thank the Minister for his statement and his subsequent comments. The Minister raised other issues in his statement that relate to other amendments, and I know that noble Lords will want to pick that up when we get to those items.
I want now to concentrate on the specific issues relating to the timing of the funding review. The Minister did not address in his response the concerns of the Delegated Powers Committee, which has once again criticised the Government for a lack of detail in the Bill. It does not believe that the case has been made for why all the detail should be contained in secondary legislation, to be seen at a later date, rather than in the Bill. I was sad that the Minister was not able to respond to that today.
Secondly, the Minister did not address why the Bill is being rushed through in advance of the outcome of the funding review being known, which might, as we have heard, fundamentally alter the shape of the package that will be on offer because of the complexities which I think we all now understand. In particular, he did not answer the question asked by my noble friend Lady Andrews about when he first knew that he would not be able to let us have the information that he promised us at an earlier stage. A lot was riding on that at the Committee stage and we feel let down by his lack of commitment.
I hear what the Minister said about the timing of the funding review and that it would be published after the spending review in November, but nothing that he has said so far has provided any reassurance that even Members of the Commons will have the opportunity to scrutinise the Bill at that stage. Clearly, the outcome of the funding review would need to be before them at the Commons Committee stage for there to be any chance of scrutiny of how the scheme will work in practice. Although I listened carefully to the Minister, I do not believe that he gave such a commitment.
This amendment is not about delaying the Bill. The Minister talked about scrutinising evidence and about consultation. All those things can go ahead as planned and still take place—we have got two years before the implementation date—so I do not believe that what we are asking for is unrealistic. There will be plenty of time before the Bill comes into force to allow the outcome to be published and properly scrutinised by both Houses, so the current rush to the statute book leaves us feeling sceptical about the motives.
I was saddened to hear the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, comment that he thought that a sustainable funding solution was unobtainable, because the scheme seems untenable in the long term if we do not have that. We cannot have a scheme where the funding is made available for one year and then left to drift for following years, which appears to be what is happening at the moment and is why the sector is so unhappy about the schemes now being funded at a loss. We need a response to that. I respect the views of the noble Lord, but I thought that he was being rather too pessimistic.
We believe that what we are suggesting is fair. It would not alter the implementation date of the Bill, but it would give us more reassurance that the scheme is workable and tenable in the longer term. We are not convinced by the Government’s response and would therefore like to test the opinion of the House.
Childcare Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Nash(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Nash
My Lords, this group includes Amendments 12 and 16. I remember well the excellent debates we had during the passage of the Children and Families Bill, and it will be no surprise that I sympathise with the intentions of the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones, Lady Tyler and Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, in their desire to ensure that the new entitlement is implemented in a way that meets the needs of children with SEN and disabilities.
We know that families with disabled children too often experience challenges and financial pressures in getting the service they need. That is why we have already acted—or will be taking steps—to address the issues highlighted by the proposed amendments. There is a strong legal framework in place to support children with SEN and disabilities. The Equality Act requires local authorities and other public bodies to promote equality of opportunity for disabled people. Early years settings, schools and colleges must make reasonable adjustments for disabled children, including the provision of auxiliary aids and services, to ensure that they are not at a disadvantage compared with their peers.
The Children and Families Act introduced significant reforms to the way children with special educational needs and disabilities are identified and supported. The improvements they will bring will be for all children, including those who receive childcare. Local councils will now commission support across education, health and care jointly with their health partners, publish a clear, local offer of services for children with SEN and disabilities and provide comprehensive information and advice to parents on these matters. New 0 to 25 education, health and care plans for those with more complex needs will replace the current SEN statements.
We want every family to have access to flexible and affordable high-quality childcare. We are monitoring take-up of the entitlement for two year-olds closely. In 2015, there were 2,450 two year-olds with some form of SEN or disability who took up a place within the current entitlement, compared to 1,300 in 2014. We can be confident that this is high-quality provision since the majority of children—85%—are attending settings that are currently rated good or outstanding by Ofsted. As the entitlement for three and four year-olds is universal, we do not currently collect information on why children take up a place. However, we know that 94% of three year-olds and 99% of four year-olds in England are taking up funded early education.
We are funding a number of projects to increase the number of good-quality and flexible childcare and early education places for disabled children: for example, 4Children’s project to build on the success of childcare hubs and Family Action’s work to support more school-based childcare for children under five with SEN and disabilities. We are also building on the Family and Childcare Trust’s parent champions and outreach work to increase the number of flexible early education and childcare places for disadvantaged families.
The Government are committed to building a highly skilled workforce for all children. All early years childcare providers must have in place arrangements to support children with SEND under the accountability framework that they are assessed against. The current early years teacher standards require that all new early years teachers have a clear understanding of the needs of children with SEND and are able to use and evaluate distinctive approaches to engage and support them. Similar arrangements apply for schoolteachers.
To ensure that providers and local authorities are equipped to deliver the expectations of the new code of practice, we are funding a number of projects to better equip the early years workforce to support children with SEND responsibilities. These include: funding the National Day Nurseries Association to build on local systems for self-improvement through SEND champions; the Pen Green Centre, which supports a model of peer-to-peer training; and the Pre-School Learning Alliance, to build mentored workforce development networks. More broadly, the SEND gateway, established by the National Association for Special Educational Needs, provides information and training resources for education professionals across early years, schools and further education. Through our voluntary and community sector grants programme, we are also funding the NASEN to develop online learning to help practitioners effectively to identify and meet the needs of children with SEN.
To make sure that we fully understand the issues that families face, we will engage with parents and providers to find out more about how they currently access and deliver childcare. We want to hear their views on how the extended entitlement could best meet their needs. I am pleased to say that we have already received a number of responses from groups representing and supporting disabled children and their parents, offering to host consultation events for parents and providers. We will continue to work with providers to identify what more can be done to ensure that early years settings are building inclusive and accessible services for parents with disabled children. I shall take back the idea put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, of making sure that providers for disabled children and the needs of disabled children are factored into the pilots.
As the Committee has heard, funding and affordability is a significant issue for many parents of SEND children. Local authorities must have the flexibility to provide support according to the circumstances in their area. They are able to set higher funding rates for provision that involves additional costs, including costs for children with SEN or disabilities, and can use their high-needs budgets to fund provision for children with additional needs, including those in specialist settings. Some in the sector have expressed concerns over the higher costs of supporting children with SEN and disabilities. The funding review will, of course, consider the additional costs, funding and support required for children with SEN and disabilities. We would welcome any evidence that the Special Educational Consortium can submit to the review on this issue and we will be happy to work with it—indeed, my officials have already met its representatives.
I am in agreement with the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones, Lady Tyler and Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, about the need for concentrated action to ensure that the Government implement the new entitlement effectively for children with SEN and disabilities. As I have described, much of this is either in hand or about to take place. However, in view of the importance of ensuring that there is equal access to the new entitlement, I would welcome a conversation with noble Lords outside this debate.
I hope that I have reassured noble Lords, and therefore urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for suggesting that we can have a further conversation about this, and that may be the way forward, because I think that there are some issues that still need to be explored. I think that there is a problem with saying that we already have a legal framework in place, and that therefore there is no problem, per se. It is one thing to say that you have a legal framework and another to look at the practicality of what is happening on the ground. We have to marry those up in some way—so, if we have a legal framework but parents of disabled children are not accessing it, we have a problem, and we really need to get to the heart of why that is the case.
I am pleased to hear that the funding review will consider the issue. As I said in opening the debate, the call for evidence does not explicitly say that we want to hear from parents of disabled children. I think the noble Lord is saying that that will be done as a separate exercise or a parallel exercise. If that is the case, I am very pleased to hear that. Rather than just assume that parents of disabled children were responding to a general call for evidence, we need to go and seek them out in a more targeted way.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 14, 30 and 32 regarding the review of the cost of childcare, the funding rate to deliver early education places and the impact of the additional entitlement on providers.
I appreciate the concerns that the noble Baronesses and the noble Lord are trying to address through Amendments 14 and 30. I agree with them that a review of the cost of providing childcare is needed and that providers should receive a fair funding rate to deliver early education places. This is particularly important as we move forward to extend the free entitlement to 30 hours for working parents of three and four year-olds. In order to do this, as we discussed, we are conducting a thorough review. The review will report in the autumn and will inform our decisions on the level of funding that providers require to deliver quality childcare, and as I said, we will report on these findings by Report.
The Government have committed to a funding rate that is fair and sustainable for providers and meets the needs of a diverse market—we were the only party that committed to increase the rate. The findings from the review will inform what that rate should be. This is a complex issue which will be looked at both by experts across government and by an external team of experts. Their role will be to support the review process and validate their findings. A call for evidence is already under way, and as I have said, we have already received more than 500 responses. With regard to how we will pay for that, it will be funded by restricting tax relief on the pensions of higher earners.
The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, talked about the scale of the increase facing us. We have introduced an offer relating to two year-olds and raised the offers for three and four year-olds from 12 to 15 hours, and the sector has coped well with that. However, the increase is nothing like the 50% that she spoke about. Many children will be in reception classes in primary schools at the age of four and many will already be taking up the offer—parents will be paying for it themselves—so the challenge is not as great as it might appear at first blush. As I say, we are confident that the sector will be able to respond. I hope that the noble Baronesses and the noble Lord will agree that the Government’s firm commitment in respect of the review and funding for early education addresses their concerns. I therefore urge them not to press the amendments.
Amendment 32 is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord True. I understand the noble Lord’s concern that the additional provision may have a negative impact on some providers, many of whom will provide a valuable service to their local community. As I mentioned earlier, I am happy to confirm that we do not envisage that any provider will be forced to provide places. While the number of providers offering places under the existing entitlement continues to grow, it is true that some choose not to do so. Parents may choose, as some do already, to receive their free entitlement from more than one provider. The existing entitlement of 15 hours per week for disadvantaged two year-olds and for all three and four year-olds will of course remain. We will keep all aspects of the delivery of the new entitlement and all the different types of providers under observation and careful consideration but it seems to us that a report such as that suggested by the amendment would be wholly disproportionate. It would be very intrusive into the private business affairs of providers. I hope that this gives the noble Lord the reassurance that he seeks and I therefore urge him not to press the amendment.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
I thank the Minister for that response. The difficulty is, I think, that there is a great deal seemingly riding on the funding review and we are all trying to piece together what will be in it. Originally we were referred to the call for evidence, which we have of course looked at, but it does not give a great deal away and, as I said earlier, the evidence that it is calling for is very generalised. There are some quite specific issues that we want the funding review to look at, such as capital funding, the historic disparities between local authorities and where the money will come from—I note that the Minister said that it would be paid for by the tax relief but, if it turns out that it costs more than the original assumption, where will that extra cash come from? I give those issues as examples.
This is the last opportunity that we will have to talk about the funding review before we see the findings—according to the timetable now, we will see the findings on Report—and our last chance to influence what is in the funding review. Given that, it would have been, and still would be, helpful to see the terms of reference so that we know exactly what is in them, what is being looked at and what is excluded
I was very taken with the examples given by the noble Lord, Lord True. You cannot assume that some of these providers will find their way to us if we do not ask them to give us the evidence to help get a full picture. I am pleased to hear that there are experts in and outside of government, but I would love to know exactly what they will be doing. I do not want everything dotted and crossed, but a bit more of the flavour of what exactly is going on with the funding review would be really helpful while we still have a chance to encourage people to participate in it and before we finally get a chance to debate the outcome in October. We have moved a little way forward but I think that we still have a way to go on some of these issues. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 14 withdrawn.
Amendments 15 to 17 not moved.
Amendment 18
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, this is one of the many clauses about which the Delegated Powers Committee was scathing. Regarding the proposal for the establishment of a body corporate, it said in its report that the government memorandum,
“explains little about why a new body might be thought necessary or about the nature of its proposed functions”.
I am rather glad that it said that because our inquiries at Second Reading received a similarly blank response.
Since then, there have been some developments. I am very conscious that the Minister said before we started this debate that the Government had had some second thoughts on the amendment. I could spell out in more detail why we thought that the measure was not a sensible idea but I am sure that the noble Lord has something useful to say about it. Therefore, rather than pre-empt that, I should be interested to hear what he has to say.
Childcare
Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Nash(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure the effective monitoring of childcare places by local authorities.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, the department’s statutory guidance is clear that local authorities should report annually to elected council members on how they are meeting this duty and make the report available and accessible to parents. We know that the childcare market is thriving. The latest figures just published show that 99% of four year-olds and 94% of three year-olds are accessing the Government’s free childcare offer.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. He will have seen the recent Family and Childcare Trust report entitled Access Denied. It highlights a huge disparity in childcare places across England. For example, 49 local authorities have a shortage of free places for two year-olds in deprived areas, and while some local authorities are proactively managing the shortfall, others are not even bothering to collect the statistics, so the offer and the quality vary considerably from place to place. How can we be sure that future expenditure will be targeted at the families who would benefit the most from this money when we seem to be faced with a lack of nursery places in the most deprived areas?
Lord Nash
The noble Baroness is quite right to say that the recent report is concerning—and we are concerned. Local authorities of course must publish certain information, but only to a limited extent, so the new Bill will go further to ensure that we have better information. I can assure her that we are very focused on deprived areas, and indeed there has been a substantial increase in full daycare places in those areas over the past five years.