Childcare Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Pinnock(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his progress report and for introducing the government amendments this afternoon. I am also grateful to him for the many meetings he has arranged since the Bill left this House, and in particular for the briefings on the outcome of the financial review.
As we stated at the outset and continue to make clear, we support the aims of the Bill. Our concern was that what could have been a more effective, ambitious and streamlined initiative to deliver free childcare has been let down by a lack of foresight and planning, and we continue to have that concern. So we were disappointed that the Government chose to reject our amendments in the Commons, because we believe that they would have enabled a more detailed analysis of the childcare funding system to take place, with properly costed long-term solutions to be put in place.
The amendments would also have ensured a proper degree of parliamentary scrutiny for a Bill which, as we rehearsed at the time, is skeleton in nature and relies on a raft of regulations to bring it to fruition. Instead, we will be reliant on debating secondary legislation —over which, quite clearly, we do not have the same influence—to agree the fundamentals of what the future childcare offer will be. I have listened carefully to the Minister’s outline of the next steps, and I am very grateful for the offer of continuing involvement in the regulations. I hope they will be as meaningful as he has now suggested, and let me make it clear to him that we will hold him to his word on this matter.
In the mean time, sadly, we are left with a Bill which is a pale shadow of its original ambition as set out by the Prime Minister at the election. The truth is that lots of parents who believed the election promises now stand to be disappointed. In order to bridge the funding gap, which, incidentally, we told the Government all along was a problem, the Government have now squeezed the eligibility for free places, so that less than half of all three and four year-olds will be eligible. The original plan was that 630,000 children would be eligible, and now that figure has been reduced to 390,000. It is the poorest parents who will lose out the most—those on the edge of the labour market with short hours, part-time work and zero-hours contracts. As we know, it is those parents, the most disadvantaged, whose children would benefit the most from the provision of quality childcare to help them to close the attainment gap. That is a fundamental regret of the Bill.
At the same time, despite the welcome injection of extra funds, the Government still do not appear to have squared the funding crisis. Research by the House of Commons Library has revealed a shortfall of £480 million over the Parliament, which means up to £470 per child per year. I am not sure that the latest figures announced by the Minister will square that figure. Those figures, which are backed by Ceeda research from the Pre-school Learning Alliance, make the case powerfully that the impact on the capacity in the system may lead to fewer rather than more places becoming available. In addition, as in the past, there appears to be no uprating mechanism, so that funding runs the risk of falling further behind over time. Will the Minister clarify how future costs will be evaluated year on year? He mentioned the national funding formula, but I am not sure that that will address those concerns.
I also regret that the Government did not pay more heed to our concerns and those raised by numerous stakeholders across the sector on these matters. Nevertheless, we do support the Bill. It clearly represents a step forward. For many parents, it will provide a welcome lifeline back into paid work and for many children it will become a new route into quality care, which will obviously give them a much better start in life. It addresses one segment of a much bigger problem of affordable childcare for all and the need to close the attainment gap between children on free school meals and their peers. In the mean time, we will continue to press this case. We will watch the rollout of the Bill with interest and we will participate in the scrutiny of the regulations with vigour. I thank the Minister for his commitment up to this point.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister very much for what he said today and for the discussions that he organised during the course of the Bill. The Bill is very different from the one that first saw the light of day in this House, which was only notable by its lack of detail. It has certainly gained considerable flesh on the original skeleton, and I am grateful for that. However, it is not necessarily a fully formed being just because it has grown throughout its progress. We still have some concerns about the detail that the Minister has finally given the House today.
There has been a broad welcome across the House, which we agreed with, for the Government’s additional childcare offer. I will comment on two particular aspects of the Bill in its final form, in the light of the discussions that we had in this House. First, we have always been concerned about the funding. There were wide discussions in Committee and on Report about the viability of providers if there were no adequate recompense for the hourly rate, and we welcome the additional funding that the Government have put into that, albeit that it is 30p an hour. I have great concerns that it will not up be upgraded annually by either RPI or CPI. If it is not, that will put additional stress on the financial viability of providers.
An issue that we on this side particularly raised in the course of the discussions was that of the additional capital that should be made available to enable providers to offer the further 15 hours, and there were many discussions about how that could be achieved. I welcome the Government’s capital fund that they have set aside for just that purpose, which demonstrates that some of the arguments we made have been recognised, albeit perhaps not enough, in my view.
Baroness Pinnock
My Lords, noble Lords will recall that, on this side, we secured the support of the House for our amendment to include a flexible approach to the implementation of the additional 15 hours of free childcare. We did so because parents and providers told us that the main barrier to their working hours was access to childcare after school hours and during school holidays. Indeed, many parents—especially mothers—expressed to us the horror with which they viewed forthcoming school holidays, particularly the long six-week summer holiday, because of the difficulties they had in either affording childcare or dealing with it in some other way through family and friends. I have read with interest, and noted with satisfaction, that the Minister in the other place conceded the need for flexibility when he said:
“I completely agree with the principle of the amendments tabled in the other place”.—[Official Report, Commons, Childcare Bill Committee, 10/12/15; col. 103.]
I have listened very carefully to the Minister today and welcome his statement in support of the need for flexibility. We are, at last, all agreed: flexibility is important. Although we can all agree on the principle, it is the implementation that interests me. I also welcome and thank the Minister for his concessions towards implementing a flexible childcare offer. I am glad that, on this side, we have continually raised the issue of flexibility, which has put that bit of pressure on the Government to think about it and come up with an approach to dealing with it. It is absolutely vital to the lives of many working families that we address their difficult daily conundrums of “Am I going to get back from work in time to pick the children up?” or “What am I going to do in the school holidays?”—in fact, to have an offer which enables people to go to work with the worries of childcare not first and foremost in their minds.
I really do thank the Minister for what he said today. I will summarise it and then I will have a think about whether it is enough. First, he said that he will put in the regulations the need to support local authorities in developing a flexible approach. That seems to have it written down and, as long as the regulations are up to scratch, seems something that will work in providing flexibility. He also said that four out of eight of the early implementers—the pilot schemes, in my phraseology —will test this out. That also seems a very positive and constructive approach. He mentioned extra funding. I did not quite hear how much he said it would be. Perhaps he could repeat that in his response. If there is extra money, I am always in favour of that, especially if it is for childcare. I think he said that local authorities would be required to be transparent in their offer. Using the examples he gave of Bradford, Brighton and Hove, Swindon and so on would show other local authorities what they could follow and replicate. If that is transparent and open, that would also be positive.
I welcome the approach to childminders, who play an enormously important role in the provision of childcare in this country. To encourage them to do more than in their own domestic setting is very much to be welcomed because it will enable a more flexible offer to lots of working parents, who often use more than one provider to enable their working lives to continue. They drop their children off with childminders before work; then the childminder takes them to a professional provider and collects them; the childminder has them at the end of the working day and the school day, and they are collected from there. To envelop all the providers into one—I hope—coherent package is very much to be welcomed.
It seems that great strides have been made towards enabling a more flexible approach, both out of school hours and during the school holidays. I hope that will, first, enable more parents to develop their own skills in the workforce without those constant worries that their children are not being properly and adequately cared for; and, secondly, enable more families to become financially secure, albeit not the families that I mentioned earlier. Given that the Minister has made such a great stride towards meeting the thoughts that I had on the flexible offer in childcare, I will hear what other noble Lords say but I thank him for the movement he has made. I beg to move.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I will speak very briefly on these amendments. As noble Lords will know, we agreed with and very much supported the amendment originally proposed by the noble Baroness on Report and we still think that the principles behind it are important. We also noted, both on Report and in the Commons, Ministers’ wording when they agreed with what was proposed; that is, they agreed with the concept of flexibility and the need to build more flexibility into the system, so obviously that is very welcome. I suppose that my one remaining concern is that “flexibility” may be all things to all people. It can hide a thousand sins. I would like to drill a little more into what is meant by that word. The noble Baroness’s original amendment specifically referred to flexibility being in the context of extending opening hours beyond nine to five and making provision in school holidays. It would be very helpful if the Minister could confirm that “flexibility”, in his terms, is about those sorts of issues and not some weaker concept.
Childcare Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Pinnock(9 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 9. Our amendment builds on the Minister’s own previous admission that a more detailed criterion was needed and his pledge to consider the issues again, taking into account what he described as our helpful contributions at Committee stage.
In this spirit, we are again trying to be helpful. Although the Government have made some concessions, we do not believe they have gone far enough, or are clear enough about which parents would qualify for the free hours. Again, we share the concerns of the most recent report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which criticises the Government for relying on the detail of the eligibility criteria being spelled out in regulation rather than on the face of the Bill. It went as far as to say it was “mystified” by this omission.
This is particularly important given that the Government seem to be rushing this Bill through because they want to send an early message to parents that the new entitlement is on its way. However, unless parents are clear on whether or not they will qualify, I rather think that that message will be lost on them. Of course, the current 15 hours of free entitlement applies to all parents, but the additional hours envisaged in this Bill will apply only to parents working a minimum of eight hours a week. I have to say that I do not think that that will go down well among parents with different circumstances sharing the facilities in nurseries. For example, nursery providers and parents will find themselves grappling with definitions and calculations. Some weeks parents will qualify, and other weeks they will not.
As the noble Lord, Lord True, pointed out in Committee:
“At the moment we have a beautifully simple system”.—[Official Report, 1/7/15; col. GC 2099.]
It is easy to administer, and there is a strong case for maintaining the additional free hours as a universal benefit.
However, if we accept the Government’s focus on just helping working parents with the cost of childcare, helping them return to work or to work more hours, then it is important that those new eligibility rules deliver that objective. That is what our amendment seeks to do. The first part of our amendment reflects the Government’s plan that there should be a minimum eight hours worked each week. The second part of our amendment identifies the exceptions to this rule for parents who are in the job market, training for work or unable to work through no fault of their own.
I submit that the categories we have identified are the very people whom the Government are most likely to help back into work by providing additional free childcare. These are the hard-working parents on the bottom rung of the jobs ladder, who will genuinely struggle with childcare costs. If the Government want to encourage work and extend working hours, these are the very people we need to help. Putting an artificial bar of a minimum of eight hours a week does not really address those concerns.
When the Minister addressed these issues in Committee he argued that there were some discretionary payments that might help parents who study or who were carers. The Minister has repeated those assurances today. However, that is very different from an automatic entitlement to free childcare and, as I have said, there is a strong case for keeping it simple. The Minister also made it clear that parents on flexible contracts, zero-hours contracts or who lose their job unexpectedly should not be disadvantaged. We welcome this commitment and our amendment seeks to enshrine it on the face of the Bill. Our amendment would provide a simple entitlement to categories of parents for whom the Minister has already expressed some sympathy. On that basis, I hope that the Government will feel able to support our amendment.
Baroness Pinnock
Throughout the debate, we have grappled with eligibility criteria. I recognise the fact that the Minister has listened and defined much more clearly the working parents who will qualify under the scheme. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has just described, it will be a very complex scheme, as set out in the Bill.
I want to speak to Amendment 10, which we tabled, by first of all thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, for reminding everybody that it was a Liberal Democrat initiative to ensure that 40% of two year-olds from the most deprived and disadvantaged families were for the first time given 20 hours of free childcare a week.
What concerns us here is the huge gap in childcare provision for the majority of parents and their children between the end of paternity or maternity leave and access to free childcare at age three. We want to keep reminding the House and the Government that this gap must be bridged. Despite what the Minister said, it will cost most parents who are in work around £400 a week, which is a significant sum of money, for their one and two year-olds to access full-time childcare. This is somewhat addressed by the tax-free childcare allowance of £1,000-plus a year, but that comes nowhere near addressing the substance of the bills that parents face.
The other issue that I want addressed and have consistently raised is that people who are out of work for more than a year find it increasingly difficult to get back into work. If we can reduce those barriers by providing free childcare, we will be helping them, their families and the state in the long term. That is why I continually raise this point whenever we debate childcare. For those reasons, I want to stress this amendment today. I know that it will not be supported across the House, but I want to keep reminding people about this issue. I shall keep coming back to it, because it is very important for many parents—and for social mobility, which the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for instance, is concerned about. I hope that in the longer term the Minister will be able to address this gap in childcare provision.
Childcare Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Pinnock(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, these are crucial amendments that seek to take forward our concerns, which have just been set out by my noble friend Lady Smith. As we have just discussed, they echo the concerns identified around the House at Second Reading, which have been endorsed by the damning report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, and further endorsed today by the Lords Constitution Committee.
Noble Lords will recall that at Second Reading there was broad consensus that we supported the principles behind the Bill but were concerned about whether it was workable and affordable. More fundamentally, there was a concern that we were being prevented from carrying out our essential scrutiny role effectively. I could cite a number of quotations from noble Lords around the House to endorse that argument, but I know that we all recall the frustration that we felt at the time. The Minister was not able to provide any reassurance because, as he said, the plan was to carry out the reviews and then publish the regulations in light of their conclusions—in other words, a long time after the Bill had left this House. We have since received a letter and a policy statement from the Minister, as well as his helpful statement today, but I would still like further clarification on what we will have before us on Report. This is what our amendments are attempting to tease out.
I gathered from the policy statement that it was proposed to consult parents, providers and employers, beginning in the summer, as well as to have a public consultation that would not take place until 2016, and that outcomes from both would feed into the draft regulations, which would be published after that. I am just checking the timescale that the noble Lord is now proposing, in light of what I read in the policy statement. Then, in September 2016, the pilot schemes will take place, so there will also be conclusions from these. I gathered from the noble Lord today that on Report we would have details of what the pilot schemes would do, but not their conclusions.
The policy statement also said, and the noble Lord echoed this today, that in the autumn the Government will produce their response to the affordable childcare report. As my noble friend Lady Massey has said, it would be helpful to have the Government’s response to that before Report. I am not sure that the Minister clarified that that would be the case. He said that there would be discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, and others, but a thought-through response to that report would be very helpful.
We then have the government task force on childcare, which I think we are also calling the funding review, to which my noble friend Lady Smith referred. As she said, the whole Bill will stand or fall on whether we get the funding right. Is the noble Lord saying that all the work on that review will be completed by September, in time for Report? It seems a very big piece of work to get it right—not only to consult all the providers but to look at the financial implications and at where the money will be drawn from to pay for any additional places. I am impressed if that is the case, but it would be helpful if the Minister could clarify that.
We also have the Minister for Employment chairing a childcare implementation task force—which I think is different, but the noble Lord will be able to clarify this—to look at the options for extending entitlement. However, as we discussed last night, it seems from the 10 Downing Street website that that task force’s report is not to be made public. Perhaps the noble Lord could clarify whether we will ever see it.
There is then a full economic impact assessment, which we will not see until 2016. Then, as we talked about, there are the final regulations and guidance. I am just trying to tease out in a little more detail which of these we will see on Report, because I would have thought—and this is what the Delegated Powers Committee report said—that most of them would be very helpful before we get into the detail of the Bill.
In essence, this is a topsy-turvy Bill. We are doing everything in the wrong order. As the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, said, it would have been sensible to have reviews and pilot schemes and publish a more detailed Bill after that. Amendment 1, is, in effect, a sunrise clause: it puts a logical process of consultation and review into the Bill and enables both Houses to play a proper role in scrutiny before the Bill is enacted.
At Second Reading, the Minister argued that it was important for the Bill to be published early so that parents could plan for 2017. Crucially, our amendment would not alter that start date, but would give an opportunity to address the many concerns that parents and providers are raising about who will be entitled to the free childcare and how it will be funded, so that, by 2017, parents will have a much clearer picture of what is on offer to them. I hope that noble Lords will see the sense of the amendment. It is very much in keeping with the recommendations of the Delegated Powers Committee and it would underpin our right to scrutinise the intent and detail of the Bill more rigorously.
Amendment 27 is quite straightforward and essential, and again builds on the recommendations of the Delegated Powers Committee. As it stands, Clause 2(2)(d) is a Henry VIII power that gives widespread powers to the Secretary of State to amend, repeal or revoke any regulations made under the Bill. By removing subsections (4) and (5) and replacing them with our amendment, all the regulations in the Bill would need to come to each House for approval, so there would need to be an affirmative, rather than a negative, process. We believe that this safeguard is necessary because of the lack of clarity in many of the regulations proposed.
In their policy statement, the Government sought to make a virtue of the lack of detail in the regulations proposed, arguing that the reviews and the consultation should take place first. We of course agree that consultation, evidence-collecting and analysis should take place before the legislation is finalised, but we are not prepared to hand over so much detail of the legislation, both primary and secondary, to the Secretary of State when so much is yet to be decided. We believe that that is bad policy and bad scrutiny.
The Delegated Powers Committee’s report was clear on this. It said:
“In our view, the Government’s stated approach to delegation is flawed. While the Bill may contain a legislative framework, it contains virtually nothing of substance beyond the vague ‘mission statement’ in clause 1(1)”.
It went on to recommend that the affirmative process,
“should apply on the exercise of all powers conferred by clause 1”.
We agree with this recommendation and our amendment would give effect to it. I am not sure whether the Minister’s statement today confirmed that. Again, I would be grateful if he could clarify that. Amendments 40, 41 and 42 are then consequential on Amendment 21.
Given the lack of detail, on which all noble Lords commented at Second Reading and again this afternoon, I hope that these amendments will provide some reassurance and a vehicle for taking the Bill forward. I hope they will receive widespread support. I beg to move.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I am very new to this process of scrutinising legislation. All the detailed procedures and processes that more experienced Members of this House know about, and the intricacies of how a decision is made, are a bit new to me. What I do know, though, is this: there is in front of us, for a very important change to legislation, a Bill that comes to just over three pages. The amendments that have been tabled across your Lordships’ House come to 13 pages, which is a very telling ratio.
What we have in the initial case is something that is extremely lacking in detail and substance, when we need detail and substance. The Bill is not about a Conservative manifesto commitment; I am concerned not about the Government’s manifesto commitments but about the impact of the final legislation on children and their families. So much is lacking in the Bill that we have no idea what the impact will be and whether it will be affordable or accessible for all young people. Which families will be able to take advantage of the 15 hours of additional free childcare that is on offer? We know none of these things. We do not know whether there is sufficient capacity in the sector to provide these additional 15 free hours.
In my other capacity, as a local councillor, representing families and their children, I would have to say, looking at this, that I do not know what is on offer, and whether I would be able to access and use it. We have before us a lost opportunity of immense proportions. Everybody across this Committee can agree that an additional 15 hours’ free childcare is very important to families and to children of preschool age, but we cannot get it right in the first instance. It is shameful that we are at this stage.
Childcare Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Pinnock(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I do not want to expand on what has already been said most ably by the mover of the amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady—oh dear.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, this amendment seeks to explore in more detail the purpose of the funding review announced by the Government, the extent to which real evidence will inform its findings, and the need to find a fully sustainable solution to the funding crisis.
At Second Reading there was a general recognition that the funding of the existing 15 hours of free childcare was unsustainable and would not survive an extension to 30 hours. There was also considerable evidence given to the Affordable Childcare Select Committee on this matter. This was subsequently echoed by the Pre-School Learning Alliance and others, which made a persuasive case to show that the hourly rate was so low that nurseries were able to provide the free hours only if they did so at a loss and cross-subsidised the payments from additional hours elsewhere. To be fair, the Government were quick to identify that this was a problem and announced the funding review soon after, and, of course, this is to be welcomed. However, serious questions remain about the conduct of the review, and this amendment seeks to explore these issues further.
First, the call for evidence asked parents and providers to send in any information that they wished to provide to inform the review, such as existing studies on the cost of childcare and the factors that make up the cost. That is okay as far as it goes, but where is the analytical research that needs to underpin a review of this nature? What we do not want is a whole series of anecdotal stories, important though they are. Surely what we need is a proper, independent study to investigate and evaluate the cost of provision across the different providers, how much the current shortfall is estimated to be and what the full cost of providing a fully funded, sustainable system would be. For example, it would be helpful to know how the Government will calculate the number of parents they expect to be eligible for these payments. Will any capital funding be included to allow for the expansion of premises or the creation of new premises? Will the calculations allow for any increase in staff pay, which providers say is necessary to recruit and retain staff? Will the assessment end the historic disparities in payments between the different local authorities? I could go on, but the point is that to do this properly requires a major piece of research, and I am not convinced that this is what the Government have in mind.
The Minister said in the policy statement:
“Between now and September 2015 the Government will be considering the simplest and most effective way to deliver the additional 15 hours of free childcare to working families. This process will be led by the Minister for Childcare and Education and the Government Task force on Childcare. The Government will provide a full update on this at Report Stage in the House of Lords”.
Again today, the Minister has confirmed that the funding review will be completed by September. This hardly allows time for a proper inquiry to be carried out.
There is then a question about how any increase in the payments to parents will be funded. The Pre-School Learning Alliance estimated that it would cost at least 20% more than the original estimate of £350 million; and, as we know, the Children’s Minister was at one stage talking about a figure over £1 billion. So there is an urgent need to clarify where any additional money will come from. Will the Minister confirm that it will be new money, not money drawn from existing budgets, and will arrangements be made to increase these sums year on year?
This amendment seeks to tease out more information about the nature and scope of the review, who will be consulted, what the timetable will be and how the outcome will be financed. It goes without saying that we welcome the Minister’s reassurance that this House will have an opportunity to consider the outcome of the review and its impact on regulations as proposed by the Delegated Powers Committee, and we look forward to further debate on this in that context. In the mean time, I beg to move.
Baroness Pinnock
I shall speak to Amendment 30 in this group which is tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Tyler of Enfield. For a serious new investment by the Government, it is disappointing that there is no indication in the Bill of the funding package that will be available for its implementation, because the funding is critical to the nature and quality of the childcare that will be provided. I welcome the funding review that has been opened, and I am delighted that the Minister has already received more than 500 responses to the request for information, but that simply shows the nervousness of the sector over the funding package that may be available.
I know from comments that have been sent to me by various childcare providers that they are very worried that if the funding is not of the right size, the implementation of what is otherwise an excellent proposal will be seriously damaged. There are several reasons for this. We do not know the quantum figure. We know that two figures have been bandied about. One is £350 million, which was mentioned in the Government’s manifesto, and the other is more than £1 billion, which was mentioned prior to the election period. The figure surely must be more than £350 million in order to fund an additional 15 hours of childcare for three and four year-olds. I hope the Minister will be able to explain where the money will come from, even if he is not able, at this stage, to tell us the total figure that will be available.
The other significant issue is that providers will not know the hourly rate that they will get for providing this childcare in the different settings. We know the rate is determined through local authority school forums and that they get the grant via the early years element of the direct schools grant. We also know that that is a flawed system. It is not necessarily a fair distribution of funding to local authorities across the country. We end up with different hourly rates for different childcare providers in different parts of the country which may not be sufficient to meet the costs of provision in those areas. I hope the Minister will be able to throw some light on this area.
There is going to be a significant demand for capital expenditure. For instance, providers in the state sector in nurseries attached to primary schools currently provide 15 hours through a morning session and an afternoon session. If there is going to be only one session of 30 hours, there will need to be a 50% increase in the amount provided. Capital funding will be necessary to do that, and it would be good to know whether any capital money is going to be available for either the voluntary or the state sector to do that.
The last point I want to make is one I raised at Second Reading, on the question of cross-subsidisation. Currently, parents who are working full-time may have to have childcare from eight in the morning to six in the evening. It is obviously quite proper that they have to pay for some of those hours, but people have been telling me that in the hours outside the free entitlement, they might be paying up to twice as much as the hourly rate in order for the private provider to meet the full costs. If, therefore, a private provider or voluntary sector provider is providing not 15 hours but 30 hours free, where is the cross-subsidisation going to come from? I am confident that the Minister, through his request for comments on the funding review, is receiving in his inbox many expressions of concern about the hourly rate that will be necessary to ensure these childcare providers are viable. For those reasons I have tabled the amendment in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and support the comments that have been made by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones.