Trade in Animals and Animal Products (Legislative Functions) and Veterinary Surgeons (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Parminter

Monday 7th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for introducing these two SIs. However, as he said, we have tabled a regret amendment and I would like to explain why. The trade in animals and animal products regulations transfer widespread legislative functions from the EU to the Secretary of State, and have been laid under the affirmative procedure to be in place before exit day. Indeed, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee considered that they were sufficiently important that they should be upgraded to the affirmative procedure.

However, the SI and the accompanying Explanatory Memorandum take no account of the subsequent passing of the Benn Act, which was overwhelmingly supported in this House and which, as noble Lords know, requires the Prime Minister to seek an extension of Article 50 if he fails to secure a deal by 19 October. In contradiction to that, paragraph 2.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum states explicitly:

“Given the change in exit day to 31st October 2019, we are using this opportunity to ensure we are as prepared as we can be to support all possible requirements of listing”.


Unless the Prime Minister is going to ignore the will of Parliament or somehow seek to subvert it, we are not exiting with no deal on 31 October.

This SI could therefore have been tabled in the normal manner, with proper scrutiny, rather than being rushed through. I say that because this really matters. As the farmers and food manufacturers have all made clear, leaving the EU without a deal would be disastrous for their businesses.

The Minister says the urgency is because the EU is considering our request for third-country listing on 11 October, but this meeting was clearly set up to consider the animal trade protections if we were to leave on 31 October, which we are not now going to do. The Minister has said that the EU already approved third-country listing in preparation for the April exit date—a decision that then became obsolete. It seems that this rushed SI is going to suffer a similar fate.

Given that there seems to be a growing political consensus that, if we leave, it should be based on a negotiated settlement, with a transition period, we may find ourselves back here all too soon with another version of this SI, with new terms of trade and a new start date. Can the Minister confirm that it is the Government’s intention to abide by the terms of the Benn Act in letter and spirit, in keeping with the wish of Parliament? Does he accept that the Benn Act, if implemented, would take a no-deal scenario off the table and make this SI obsolete? Can he clarify whether the request for third-country listing being considered by the EU later this week is specifically aimed at a start date of 1 November, or does it have flexibility for an alternative date if the negotiations continue? Does he accept that, even with third-country listing, a no-deal Brexit could have catastrophic impacts on food and farming, as British exports will still face significant barriers and the imposition of high tariffs as outlined in the Government’s own Yellowhammer paper?

As I said, this SI matters because it represents the transfer of wide-ranging legislative functions relating to biosecurity, giving the Secretary of State powers to make substantial changes to policies after exit day. In fact, it deals not just with the basics necessary to achieve EU listing; it goes further. For example, paragraph 2.9 of the Explanatory Memorandum explains that the Secretary of State will have the power to vary our listing of third countries to ensure that,

“we can adapt in the longer-term should we assess that biosecurity risks presented by third countries have fundamentally changed after we leave the EU”.

This would allow us to deviate from the third countries recognised by the EU.

Clearly, the trade in animals and animal products is of significant importance to the UK’s food security and economy, as well as being highly politically controversial. We have seen once again in the papers today details of a leaked Defra briefing detailing the consequences of a rushed trade deal with the US, which Liz Truss is promoting but which could irreparably damage the environment and public health. The leaked paper states that weakening our sanitary and phytosanitary standards to accommodate the US would damage our trade with the EU. Does the Minister accept that if the Secretary of State amends UK standards using the powers set out in this SI, it could jeopardise our third-country listing with the EU? Can he explain the circumstances in which we might deviate from the accepted EU listings in the longer term?

I move now to the detail of these two SIs. As I said, the trade in animals and animal products and veterinary surgeons SI gives the Secretary of State far-reaching powers to amend the list of third countries with which we will trade in future, but the only consultation that seems to be necessary is with the devolved Ministers in relation to trade in their own countries. Unlike many other Brexit SIs we have considered over the last 18 months, there is no requirement written into the SI to consult expert bodies or seek scientific advice, so there is real concern that the pressure to secure new trade deals will lead the Secretary of State to water down their assessment of third-country animal welfare and public health protections. For example, Chapter 5, which deals with future poultry imports, refers in paragraph (2) to,

“taking into account … the assurances which the third country can give with regard to compliance with poultry health requirements”.

It is vital that we rely not simply on the assurances from would-be trading partners but on the facts.

The Minister said that advice would be taken from independent and scientific bodies. That guarantee is not spelled out in this SI in the way that has been done in many SIs before us. There is therefore a question mark about whether the UK public can be properly assured that our future imports will be safe and continue to meet our high welfare standards.

These regulations also include a sub-delegated power that enables the Secretary of State to publish and amend lists of animals and products that require or are exempt from border veterinary checks. Can the Minister clarify the circumstances in which the lists of animals requiring veterinary checks might be amended? There does not seem to be any need for it, but will he commit to a prior consultation with the industry, particularly veterinary professionals, before this step is taken?

The Animal Health and Genetically Modified Organisms (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations update the rules regarding TRACES, the EU’s TRAde Control and Expert System, which notifies member states of the movements of animals and animal products through their territories to ensure compliance with animal health and public health obligations, as the Minister described. Last month, Defra requested that the EU give limited continued access to TRACES for imports. Can he advise whether this request was granted?

Meanwhile, as the Minister said, the Government have been trialling the alternative system, the Import of Products, Animals, Food and Feed System. He advised that this went live on 30 September. Is he confident that this system is robust and fully operable? How can it be fully tested when not all businesses have yet signed up? How many businesses have signed up? Are they currently expected to use both TRACES and IPAFFS? At what date will businesses be expected to transfer completely to IPAFFS? How will this be communicated to them?

Notwithstanding the detailed concerns that I have just outlined with these proposals, we believe that businesses are overwhelmingly against a no-deal exit—with all the chaos that will ensue. The Benn Act gives the Government a route out of no deal and will provide the continuity that food and farming businesses crave.

I hope that the Minister will heed this message and concede that these SIs should not have been laid in this manner and within this timescale in contravention of the Benn Act. I therefore beg to move.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, I associate myself with the comprehensive remarks of my colleague on the Labour Front Bench and support the intention behind the amendment. It is absolutely clear that businesses in the farming and agribusiness community are extremely concerned about the potential impact of a no-deal Brexit on their businesses. Bringing these SIs forward under the affirmative procedure seems to fly in the face of the proposals agreed in the other place and supported broadly here—the Benn proposals—which would not enable Brexit to take place on 31 October.

I do not want to reiterate the detailed points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. However, I want to add a couple of extra detailed points about the Animal Health and Genetically Modified Organisms (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

I am grateful to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which pointed out that we have these regulations because of defective drafting. Clearly, with the number of SIs that Defra has had, those things are bound to happen. I was grateful to hear the Minister’s apology—in a sense—for having to bring this forward, but I query whether this SI is just about defective drafting. If we look at one of the paragraphs that is changing, it removes an existing requirement in EU legislation for companies that deliberately release GMOs into the environment.

Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Parminter

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 17th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, I add the support of our Benches to the noble Baroness in seeking reassurances about the critical issue of guidance. This is an important piece of legislation, albeit one that affects a very small number of wild animals. Ensuring that we have clear guidance on the definition of “travelling circus” and who can seize these animals is critical, but it is equally critical that we get it done soon, as these licences will expire in January. Given that critical timing, if there is not time for this House to have further scrutiny, it would be beneficial if, in summing up, the Minister could reassure us about who the Government are talking to when compiling appropriate guidance to take this matter forward.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I have great respect for the positions of the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, and I agree that decision-making in this House should be based on sound evidence. That is always how we operate.

The issue of guidance was raised at Second Reading and debated again in Committee. It is important that we have detailed guidance to support the core objectives of this Bill, which has widespread support. At Second Reading, we were pleased that the Minister placed on record that the guidance will be published by 20 November, two months before the Bill comes into effect. We were also persuaded that the common-sense approach to spelling out the details of many of the issues that noble Lords were raising—such as the definition of “travelling circus”—would be to include them in the guidance, rather than on face of the Bill.

Let me make our position clear. Our priority is to finish all stages of this Bill before the coming recess, so that it can be put on the statute book. It is a good Bill, which delivers on my party’s long-standing commitment to ban wild animals in circuses. Any amendments passed today would jeopardise it. I therefore urge the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, to consider that and to withdraw her amendment.

Environment (Legislative Functions from Directives) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Parminter

Monday 15th July 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, our Benches certainly accept that, if we are to leave the European Union, the Secretary of State or the devolved authorities need these powers to ensure that the legislation, such as it is, does not remain static but moves forward in the light of scientific knowledge and understanding. The number of areas that we are talking about in environmental legislation is reflected in this jumbo statutory instrument, so we also accept that the only way to provide them is probably through the secondary legislation route, given the chances of us being able to get primary legislation slots for all the changes that might be necessary.

However, following what the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, said, we are disappointed that the opportunity has not been taken in this jumbo SI to ensure maximum protection for the environment. That is particularly so when we are having these discussions in advance of an environment Bill that sets the framework for future UK legislation outside Europe; and in advance of creating the office for environmental protection, which, in addition to statutory authorities such as the environment agencies, will be able to hold people to account.

In a slightly different way, I want to pick up a point that the noble Baroness made about changes being made only in response to scientific and technical advances. In some areas—she alluded to one, and I have another on water quality—the regulations pin down how the Secretary of State or devolved authorities can use these powers. Regulation 32(3) alludes to the fact that the devolved authorities can use the powers on water quality by looking to scientific evidence only where there will be possible harm to the aquatic environment. So, this instrument contains provisions on how the devolved authorities or the Secretary of State can use those powers to protect the environment. If it is good enough in the case of water quality to limit the powers that the Secretary of State can use in response to scientific and technical changes—and to do so only to advance environmental protection—why is that not the case in all areas? The phrase about it being in response to scientific and technical changes does not have a rider; it says that it ensures the equivalent or a higher level of protection for the environment. I think we are both making the same point.

The noble Baroness, Lady Young, also mentioned consultation but I want to pick up on a slightly different point. Given the nature of these changes, it is critical that all relevant stakeholders are consulted. However, there is an omission on the issue of environmental noise, which the statutory instrument covers. In his summing up, can the Minister say specifically why environmental noise does not merit consultation? He referred to it in general terms but not specifically. Of course, we can change negative statutory instruments to affirmative ones, but it would reassure us parliamentarians and bring us a degree of comfort if we knew that all the changes had been subjected to scrutiny by all the relevant bodies.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing the SI and for the helpful briefing that he arranged beforehand.

As he explained, this is another of the many SIs that we have considered to transfer legislative functions from the EU and the European Commission to the UK. In this case, the functions are transferred overwhelmingly to the Secretary of State and devolved Ministers. We have debated the limitations of this process many times before; I do not intend to go into all the arguments again but there is an undoubted democratic deficit in transferring powers from a complex European process, with all its checks and balances, to one person, however well intentioned that person may be.

With that in mind, I want to raise some issues and ask some questions. First, the department’s written response to stakeholders on the issue of environmental law governance drew attention to the proposals for the office for environmental protection contained in the draft Environment (Principles and Governance) Bill, which is intended to provide continued scrutiny and oversight. That Bill, which is not before us yet, now plays a particularly significant role. Because of where we are politically, the withdrawal Bill, which we spent many happy hours arguing over and which had a large number of environmental protections built into it, will not be taken forward; we seem to be losing it. All we have now to underpin environment guarantees is the office for environmental protection, which does not exist yet. What role will that body play in scrutinising the sort of regulations that are before us today and the Secretary of State’s powers in them? For example, is it envisaged that the OEP will collect data and monitor the effectiveness of the regulations? That includes points of detail; as the Minister said, this is about annexes and so on. Will its role go into that sort of detail? Will it also be responsible for scrutinising the Secretary of State’s performance and delivery in carrying out the functions that we are about to give him or her?

Can the Minister clarify what role this new body will play and whether it will have that oversight? While we are on the subject, can he also bring us up to date about when we will see the OEP? It seems the timetable is slipping, yet an awful lot is riding on the future of that organisation. It would be helpful if he could update us on that because, once that body is in place and we have had the assurances about what we hope will be its all-embracing role, some of these other issues will fall into place and we will not be so anxious about them.

Fisheries (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Parminter

Wednesday 6th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for that point. Like him, I echo my thanks to the Minister and the team for the explanations in Annexe B, which were provided at the request of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. It has aided all of us to get a clearer understanding of exactly how these changes to the very discrete area of enforcement powers will accrue if we leave the European Union.

I make no substantive comment on the statutory instrument—it was to the satisfaction of the House’s committees. Last week, in the other place, Minister George Eustice made it clear that there will be just shy of 100 Defra statutory instruments. This statutory instrument deals with a very discrete area of enforcement powers; I know the Minister is well aware of this issue, but there is a much bigger statutory instrument which deals with the policy issues around the many changes to policy which will happen to fisheries should we leave the common fisheries policy. It struck me and other Members as a cart before the horse situation. This is a very discrete element and it would have been helpful to discuss the two statutory instruments together.

Given that there will be some good nature required on both sides of the House to deal with this large number of statutory instruments, it would, at this stage, be wise to inform the department that it would be helpful in future—if possible—for issues which have common policy areas to be debated together.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation, and for his courtesy in meeting to discuss this issue beforehand. I also thank other noble and noble and learned Lords who have raised important points during this discussion.

I begin, once again, by raising the more general issue about the process that we are expected to undertake in scrutinising such a large number of SIs in such a short time. As the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, said, the Minister in the other place, George Eustice, confirmed that we have 98 Defra SIs to get through before Brexit day. I am sure the Minister will recognise the enormous challenge this creates to ensure proper scrutiny, given the sheer volume of legislation that faces us in the coming weeks. Of course, we would not be in this position if the Government had not insisted that a no-deal option remain on the table—an option that very few people across either House believe is sensible or workable. We continue to be concerned that by rushing through this legislation, mistakes will occur, and that in trying to deal with such a large volume of legislation, we will not be able to do justice to the scrutiny process.

I want to return to the issues we raised during scrutiny of a previous SI last week. While we welcome the establishment of the reading room to allow invited stakeholders to have pre-sight of SIs, in practice all it does is allow for a few extra days to analyse and digest them. There is little scope for any deficiencies to be addressed or to withdraw and re-lay any SIs that are identified as being flawed. Has any consideration been given to making this pre-scrutiny process more meaningful? Is it true that consideration is being given to a wash-up process before Brexit day to potentially address these deficiencies? Has any more consideration been given to the request from my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone for parliamentarians to be given the same opportunity for earlier sight of the drafts? If not, we are being presented with a fait accompli, and can have very little influence over the wording before us.

On the subject of process, I absolutely agree with the point made by the noble Baroness. It seems very odd that we are not debating this SI with its sister SI, the Common Fisheries Policy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, particularly as the Explanatory Memorandum says that they should be read in conjunction. On the same subject, the Minister will know that in its report of 20 December, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee criticised the lack of detail in the Explanatory Memorandum and asked for a more detailed one to be produced. We are pleased that the department took this criticism seriously, but he will know that this resulted in our receiving the revised version of the EM very late in the day. I hope that that process will not be repeated.

Turning to the detail of the SI, the noble Lord knows that there was some discussion in the other place about the amendments which change “enforceable Community or EU obligations” to “retained EU obligations and restrictions”. The Minister has now confirmed that the meaning of a “retained EU obligation” is as set out in Schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act. My question is slightly different. It is about losing the reference to the obligations being “enforceable”. Are there any implications to removing the power to enforce this SI? I want absolute clarity on that, because I do not feel that the Minister in the other place answered it satisfactorily. Can the Minister please confirm who will be responsible for enforcing the retained EU obligations in these circumstances, as the SI does not seem to spell this out? This is another example of where the EU would have had the ultimate power of action, including fines, through the European Commission. Given that this has not yet been transposed into UK law, will there be the same powers of enforcement that we currently enjoy under EU law?

I want to move on to the removal of references to Article 42 and the control regulation from the Sea Fishing (Enforcement) Regulations 2018. As I understand it, this means that an inshore fisheries and conservation officer can no longer enforce Article 42, which states that fishing vessels engaged in fisheries subject to a multiannual plan cannot move their catches to another vessel unless they have first been weighed. If this provision is removed, is there not a danger that the rules on weighing catches could be evaded and overfishing allowed to take hold? Can the Minister explain why this change was made and what is being done to manage the risk of overfishing?

I want to raise the question of access to the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund. The SI understandably deletes reference to the fund, but it is worth £30 million a year to our coastal communities. Can the Minister confirm whether these payments will therefore cease on Brexit day? Following the responses given by George Eustice on this issue, can he confirm that the size of the UK fund will match that provided by the EU? Can he confirm the date from which access to these new funds will be available? In other words, will there be an access payment gap between the end of one fund and the beginning of another?

Finally, can the Minister clarify the impact of the changes proposed to the fish labelling regulations, which he touched on? The Explanatory Memorandum now designates the Secretary of State to draw up and publish the list of commercial fish species accepted in the UK. I think I heard the Minister say that some of the arrangements for how this will work are in the forthcoming SI—which ideally would have been debated today, with this one. In the absence of that SI, can the Minister tell us by what date the Secretary of State will publish such a list? Will it be available on Brexit day? What happens in the interim if no statutory list of species is published? Is there a danger that endangered species could be fished, even for a short period? I look forward to the noble Lord’s response on these issues.

Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2017

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Parminter

Wednesday 13th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak briefly in support of the Motion and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Marks, for giving us the opportunity. I refer your Lordships to my entry in the register of interests.

I wish to make a wider point about the consequences of this legislation. I speak as a passionate environmentalist and as someone who has maintained a sceptical eye on the environmental claims of the party opposite because, sadly, time and again the practical realities of its actions have not lived up to its lofty claims about defending the environment.

I was intrigued when I heard Michael Gove’s keynote speech setting out his own agenda to the WWF in July. He went further than the usual ministerial platitudes on these issues. He specifically praised organisations such as the WWF, the RSPB, the Wildlife Trust, Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and so on. He said:

“Their campaigning energy and idealism, while occasionally uncomfortable for those of us in power, who have to live in a world of compromise and deal-making, is vital to ensuring we continue to make progress in protecting and enhancing our environment”.


He went on to say:

“On everything from alerting us all to the danger posed by plastics in our oceans and nitrogen oxide in our air, to the threats posed to elephants by poaching and cod by over-fishing, it’s been environmental organisations which have driven Governments to make progress”.


It is therefore ironic that the organisations holding the Government to account—which Michael Gove was keen to praise—are the same organisations which have now written to noble Lords urging us to support this Motion to Regret.

I have a specific question for the Minister, which is: has Michael Gove, the new Secretary of State for Defra, been fully consulted about these changes and is the Minister confident that he supports them? If so, we on these Benches will have to revert to our cynicism about his true intentions about working with those organisations to protect the environment.

It is clear that the proposed changes to the court costs will discourage environmental charities, local groups and individuals from holding the Government to account when they fail to live up to their promises about protecting the environment. I refer noble Lords, for example, to the heroic and dogged legal case of Client Earth on holding the Government to account on the question of clean air, which has wide and enormous public consequences. The case has true public benefits and there are many other cases like it.

Like others, I have read the Explanatory Memorandum, and I share the disbelief of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee that it does not make it clear why these changes are needed. There is no evidence of a flood of unmeritorious claims in court. The figure quoted of 153 cases in a year seems remarkably reasonable. It is also clear that a healthy number of those cases were successful, which rather underscores their validity.

I do not wish to prolong this discussion but the continuity and the streamlined thinking of the Government have been tested by this. I am not sure whether Defra and the justice department are thinking with like minds and I therefore urge the Minister to withdraw the proposals. In doing so, I make it clear that I will support the Motion if it is pressed to a vote.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Marks, for bringing forward this regret Motion and exemplifying what this House does so well—standing up for the democratic rights of citizens to challenge authority and, as in this case, do so in the face of what is clearly an attempt by the Government to price people out of the opportunity to get environmental justice.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said, we are at a time when there is mounting pressure on our precious environment and, frankly, when better lives in a better future for all of us can be achieved only by respecting the value and constraints of the natural environment. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Young, as a former chief executive of the Campaign to Protect Rural England, I saw how local groups saw going to judicial review as a last resort. Unlike companies, local groups do not have the right of appeal when a local authority approves a controversial application. Costs protection provided groups with a certainty: they could assess the likely expenditure over the duration of a challenge and they could agree to take it forward.

I worry that there is not a clear rationale for the case the Government are making, as the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee said. It is not as if the cases where the claimants sought to apply environmental costs protection rules were clogging up the courts—there were only 166 such cases in 2014-15 out of a total of over 20,000 judicial reviews launched. Equally, those cases had a markedly higher success rate than other types of cases going to judicial review, so they were not unreasonable.

There is evidence that, since the changes were introduced, there has been a chilling effect on the number of cases coming forward: environmental groups using Ministry of Justice data estimate a reduction of about a quarter since the introduction of the new regime. I ask the Minister for the ministry to clearly publish the data on the number of cases, so that the effects of the new regime can be fully evaluated.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, I find it very interesting to hear the fine words from last month of the Secretary of State for the Environment, Michael Gove, who said that,

“we have an opportunity, outside the EU, to design potentially more effective, more rigorous and more responsive institutions, new means of holding individuals and organisations to account for environmental outcomes”.

Frankly, in the light of this, those words ring pretty hollow.