Folic Acid

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 13th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, it is not only its importance for maternity services that is on my mind. It is also the recently announced office for health promotion, which will lead the national effort to improve and level up the health of the nation in the round by tackling obesity, improving mental health and promoting physical activity. This important initiative should be seen in the context of that important strategy. I completely endorse the ambition expressed by the noble Lord.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, why does the Minister tease the House? He says that fortification should happen, so there is no disagreement, but it does not happen. In June, just over two weeks ago, he said that

“we are committed to following the science and are totally persuaded by it … I reassure noble Lords that this remains a priority for the Government.”—[Official Report, 23/6/21; col. 221.]

Since that Question, 50 more babies will have been born with neural tube defects. This will not do. Has the Minister sought the view of the new Secretary of State? Could he share it with the House?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I look forward with great enthusiasm to my monthly updates to the House on this important initiative. We are moving as quickly as the machinery of government allows us to. Taking along all the nations is an important aspect, but, quite fairly, it requires consultation with and the engagement of the devolved assemblies, which is why we have written to them and are engaging with them accordingly. I am also pleased to share with the noble Baroness that we are actively engaged with Defra, which is undertaking a wider review of bread and flour regulations. We will be aligning its fortification plans with this measure in due course.

Osimertinib Cancer Treatment

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness is entirely right to be concerned about the backlog of oncological diagnostics. It is of grave concern to all of us. That is why the NHS has massively prioritised the tests she described. We are working extremely hard to get through the backlog. GPs are extremely focused on identifying those most at risk and those who are late for their tests are being followed up with great energy and endeavour. I pay tribute particularly to the role of NHS D, which is using the kind of data gains that we made during the pandemic to mobilise all the technology we can to get the right people into tests at the right time.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

I am really pleased that this drug can now be used as I understand that it is something of a wonder drug. That is good news. Are there any other drugs that might fall foul of the Northern Ireland protocol? Will the Minister update the House on the current problems in Northern Ireland with over-the-counter medicines such as Strepsils and others that appear to have fallen foul of the protocol?

Eating Disorder Services: Referrals

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Monday 17th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is entirely right that community eating disorder services are critical. They are the backbone of our measures to address these difficult cases. But money for the treatment of eating disorders comes from many different pots. During 2021, a total of 10,695 children and young people started treatment, which is up from 8,034 children in the year before. So, clearly, resources are getting through to cope with a large number of people, and that is an encouraging sign.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

Is the Minister confident that all referrals to a community eating disorder specialist can be managed without excessive travel on the part of the individual and their family and that, where necessary, local in-patient services are available right across England?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness refers to a perennial issue in any national health service, which is the inevitable concentration of expertise in some hubs where there is particular specialist knowledge. But she is entirely right that we should try to avoid excessive travel. That is why community eating disorder services are so important, because they bring the treatment as close as possible to the people who are suffering.

Care Home Occupancy Rate

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 28th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, NHS minutes are published as a routine matter, of course. I would be happy to write to the noble Lord with a link to the right minutes.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

Given the reluctance, post pandemic, to going into care homes, one would expect more vulnerable people to require support at home, and this is delivered in part using local authority funding. What advice is being given to the sector by Her Majesty’s Government, and what measures are being taken to ensure that this need can be met?

Folic Acid

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Monday 26th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My noble friend is right: with half of pregnancies unplanned or unexpected, it is entirely right that we should seek to raise issues such as folic acid. The Government are committed to the preventive agenda, and folic acid is just one among many examples where we hope to mobilise public interest in looking after their own health to avoid these kinds of conditions. Her point is extremely well made.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the department’s website states:

“More than 60 countries worldwide now add folic acid to their flour, including Australia, Canada and the US.”


It goes on to say:

“In Australia, neural tube defects fell 14%”.


This would save 400 babies a year in the UK. The department has spent the last year making Covid-related decisions in our best interests. Given the Minister’s comments, can we expect an announcement by the end of June?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness puts the statistics persuasively. The numbers I have are slightly different, but her gist is right. I hope to return after purdah to revisit this important subject.

Care Homes: Guidance

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 21st April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of their guidance Visits out of care homes, last updated on 7 April, and in particular the requirement that residents making a visit out of a care home should isolate for 14 days on their return.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government do not underestimate the heavy burden of infection protocols on those who live in social care and on their loved ones. However, the public health advice is clear: once an infection enters a closed environment such as a social care home, it spreads far and fast, as we found out last year. We hope that the vaccines will change this and we keep the policy under review but, until the evidence is conclusive, the safety of residents remains our priority.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, care home residents have been cooped up for more than a year. Most of them have received two doses of the vaccine and many are becoming depressed at not being allowed to go for a walk with a family member, or even to vote in person at the polls. At a recent sitting of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the pressure group Rights for Residents told the committee that

“the Government’s guidance on visiting out of care homes … is blatant human rights abuse”.

As the situation is easing somewhat, when do the Government expect to reassess that guidance?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness puts the case extremely well. I do not deny her suggestion that this is a huge burden on those involved. However, data from the ONS makes it clear that, across care homes, when one case of coronavirus is reported, an estimated 20% of residents typically subsequently test positive for Covid—even under the current state of the vaccine rollout. We remember Holmesley care home in Sidford, Devon, where there were 11 deaths because of a major outbreak. We are still in the middle of the pandemic. The vaccine is making progress, but we have to take things one step at a time.

Covid-19: Resuscitation Orders

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 24th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very fair point; such care needs to be in the work plan particularly of those with learning difficulties, but of all those in care. We absolutely endorse the approach taken by the Resuscitation Council, which has extremely good guidance in this area.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, no one doubts the events described by the right reverend Prelate and noble Lords. By when can we be confident that the same could not happen again?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, we could not be moving more quickly. We got the report out before the end of the pandemic; we have acknowledged the issue and written numerous letters into the system, as I have mentioned; and we are putting in place the resources needed to support the necessary training and interactions. We are taking this extremely seriously and we are moving as quickly as we possibly can.

Folic Acid

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 23rd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My noble friend makes the case extremely well. I reassure him that, in February 2020, officials from the DHSC and Defra met representatives from the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings’ Mills Section and the Traditional Cornmillers Guild and visited windmills and watermills to understand at first hand the practicalities around fortification for those premises. The commitments made on those visits will, I think, build a policy that takes into account the very special needs of those important artisanal trades.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for his tenacity on this issue, and fail to understand why successive Governments have not recommended the addition of folic acid to flour, as well as fluoride to water, following many western Governments. For those who live on junk food, folate deficiency can turn into a serious disorder and, if left unchecked, can be fatal. In addition, the possible damaging effects to the foetus during pregnancy make this a no-brainer. The consultation closed 18 months ago, so when will the Minister bring the update to the House?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness puts the case well. It is an issue that I feel personally committed to; a cousin of mine was born with a neural tube defect many years ago, and the effects of that hit my family extremely hard. I recognise the problem of unplanned pregnancies and the need to find a way to get folic acid to people who were perhaps not intending to have a pregnancy. We take this matter extremely seriously, and I commit to returning to the House when we have an update on it.

Health and Social Care Update

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Monday 22nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I am extremely impressed by the noble Lord’s perseverance on this issue. I know that he feels very strongly about the need for members of the public to be involved in policing the wearing of masks. However, that is simply not the way in which the British administration of guidelines is handled in this country; it is for those who are put in positions of badged authority to implement them. I simply cannot advocate that members of the public should intervene on one another to insist on, or apply any form of retribution regarding, the wearing of masks.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement and the Government’s ambition. At the end of the Statement, there is a commitment to building 40 new hospitals, hiring 50,000 more nurses and backing the NHS and social care. Can the Minister outline what sort of backing the social care sector can expect, and by when?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the broad and large hook that the noble Baroness has provided me with. I reassure her that not only do we have a massive amount of support already in place for social care to help it through the current pandemic and the huge amount of pressure that has been put on its staff, residents and supply chain; we also have put in place an enormous amount of financial support for local authorities to ensure that they can provide the kind of improvements to social care that are needed. One area in which we have made enormous advances is care tech—that is, digital and technologically driven support. It has taken a huge step forward in the last year and impacted enormously on the lives of those in social care of all kinds.

Women’s Health Strategy

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 9th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I reassure the noble Baroness that we are committed to getting this right. The Minister of State and Secretary of State are both very committed to this agenda, and the whole healthcare system has tuned in to the importance of getting this right. I pay tribute to some of the fantastic women whom I have worked with during the pandemic at the highest levels of the healthcare system. I will not do a rolling name check now, but I reassure the noble Baroness that there are some phenomenal female leaders at the top of the NHS, social care and science, who will, I am sure, personally drive this agenda forward.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Statement yesterday addressed “taboos and stigmas” around areas of women’s health, and the greatest of these must be FGM, which was not mentioned yesterday. In the year to March 2020, there were over 6,500 women and girls in whom FGM was identified: that is over 15 women a day that we know about. How do these girls and women fit into the national strategy?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, we are of course drafting the national strategy, and we are collecting evidence on what its priorities should be. Undoubtedly, FGM should be in there; it is the most horrific crime, and it still touches far too many girls’ and women’s lives. I would like to see this country rid of it forever as soon as possible, and I encourage the noble Baroness to submit evidence on that point so that we can move clearly on it.

NHS: Pay

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 9th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes some vivid comparisons on completely incomparable pay differentials. The values that we have are absolutely aligned with public service values. We are determined to create a workplace that is just, fair and equitable. We are committed to giving people a fair reward for the work that they do and to giving people decent job prospects within that role. Those are the values that people go to work for and are motivated by. We need to put together a package that works across the piece and is not narrowly focused on one particular material point, such as pay. I stand by what I said previously: the package of measures that was put in our evidence to the pay review body sees all those values in the round.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, for the last 10 years NHS pay has lagged behind inflation. Year on year, health professionals have had less to spend than they had the previous year, and the 1% pay rise does not help as inflation removes any increase. Apart from the moral case put by noble Lords, this is not good economics. If people are paid more, they spend more by putting cash back into the economy. Will the Minister ask the Chancellor to look at this again?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I am at a slight disadvantage because I am not quite sure that I can substantiate the noble Baroness’s view that pay has lagged behind inflation. Her economics lesson is extremely interesting but not one that the Chancellor is necessarily persuaded by. Where she is entirely right is that pay is an important aspect of any recruitment campaign by the NHS, and that is why we have put recruitment at the heart of our commitment to it. That is why we are recruiting 50,000 nurses and making a very large number of GP appointments. We are seeing huge gains in achieving those targets, which reflects the fact that there is not a massive or structural misalignment in our pay arrangements.

Covid-19: Brazilian Variant

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 2nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness is entirely right: this is not the first case of P1 in Europe. As of 11 February, P1 has been identified in 17 countries, with 200 cases reported globally. In the EU, 30 cases have been identified in five countries and areas. We keep the red list under permanent review and have an ongoing process of keeping it up to date. The fact that we have a red list and a managed quarantine programme makes further expansion of the red list possible. It puts our borders and our vaccine under a programme where we can control things, which is to be applauded.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

How confident are the Government that our vaccines will cope with the Brazilian variant of the Covid virus and that the passenger from Brazil, who is somewhere in south Gloucestershire, will be traced? What measures are now in place to ensure that an incoming passenger is not lost again?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

We are uncertain on the vaccine. There is a huge amount of speculation, but I would recommend that noble Lords take it with a pinch of salt because we cannot know for sure how the virus will behave with those who have been vaccinated until we have much better and clearer data. Regarding the current managed quarantine arrangements, I pay tribute to the teams which have stood up the system extremely quickly and well. The south Gloucestershire and Aberdeen arrangements have been incredibly impressive. It is extremely frustrating to all concerned that one person did not fill in the form and slipped through the net. But overall, the programme has shown itself to be extremely robust and we have an enormous amount of confidence in it.

Independent Medicines and Medical Devices Safety Review: Sodium Valproate

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 2nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, as I explained a moment ago, there is an annual risk acknowledgment form signed by the prescriber and the patient, and that is shared with the patient’s GP. GPs should check that the patient has signed an up-to-date annual risk acknowledgment form each time a repeat prescription is issued. We have instituted a valproate safety implementation group that analyses, along with the MHRA, compliance with this plan. We acknowledge the review’s recommendation to introduce an indicator on safe prescribing in pregnancy for future iterations of the quality outcomes framework, and we will respond on that with the rest of the response to the review.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, redress is important, but so too is patient support. Could the Government confirm that they are considering the recommendation that a network of support centres should be set up to support those women who have been affected by Primodos, sodium valproate or vaginal mesh?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I completely acknowledge the noble Baroness’s point. Support is incredibly important and our hearts go out to all those who have been hit by any of the three conditions covered by the review. We are absolutely looking at those recommendations to see how they may be implemented to provide the support that the noble Baroness rightly points out.

Covid-19: Vaccination Programme

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 24th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, teachers are a priority in as much as they are on the prioritisation list along with other key workers, but the honest assessment of the JCVI is that teachers are not at accelerated risk of increased sickness or hospitalisation over any other member of the public. We are enormously grateful to the teaching profession for the role it is playing in getting schools back and in testing but, in terms of sickness and mortality, teachers are in the right place in the JCVI prioritisation.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, NHS England has told GPs to use their clinical discretion on vaccines for adults with a learning disability—although I am pleased that the Minister says that this is no longer the case. What percentage of adults with a learning disability have been called for their first jab and, if it is not 100% at this stage, why not?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I do not have the precise figure to hand. Those in group 4 will include those with Down’s syndrome and other CEVs; those with severe or profound learning disabilities will be in group 6. As we know, group 4 has had an extremely high conversion rate and, although I do not think it is exactly 100%, it will be an astonishingly high amount and, if those figures are available, I should be glad to write to the noble Baroness with them.

Dentists: Covid-19

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Thursday 11th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I do not necessarily accept the dichotomy the noble Baroness refers to. I think it is reasonable for dentists to triage patients between those who can be treated with either advice, analgesics or antibiotics, and therefore do not need face-to-face contact, and those who need to be prioritised to, for example, the urgent dental care centres. I commend the dental profession for making good choices in that area. With regard to the treatment of children using anaesthetics, those are not statistics I have to hand, but I would be glad to write to the noble Baroness with whatever information we have.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, when I inquired, none of the dentists in north and east Cornwall was able to offer an appointment for NHS dentistry, so I know to my cost that private treatment is expensive. Would the Minister tell the people of Cornwall, whose earnings are below both regional and national averages, what should be done about this lack of NHS dentists in remote areas, leaving patients untreated, in pain and often resorting to self-care?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, as I said earlier, 88% of NHS dentists are open. I was at an NHS dentist earlier today, and I pay tribute to all those dentists that are open. I do not know the specific situation in north and east Cornwall, but those in acute pain have access to the 695 urgent dental care centres, which are around England. I have enormous sympathy for those who have painful teeth, and I urge them to hunt down an appointment at one of those centres, where the service is excellent.

Covid-19: Self-Isolation

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, in terms of the numbers or proportion of those isolating, a large number of figures is being bandied around. Some apply to last year and some to this year. I raise doubts as to whether anyone truly knows what the behaviours of people are, but I reiterate that UCL reports that 80% are self-isolating for the recommended 10 days or more, and that figure has some authority. In terms of the support that we are offering to people, we have taken on board the recommendations of noble Lords on the Opposition Benches and local authorities are using targeted support that suits the communities in which they work to provide that kind of support. We have provided substantial financial funding and resources for local authorities to provide the support needed.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

Despite local authorities doing their best to support those self-isolating, good examples from Germany show that integrated health and care teams that visit people daily are vital to support people’s health and well-being in self-isolation. What has stopped the Government fully financing this integrated model across England?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

We are hesitant to send teams of healthcare workers to people isolating because of the fear of infection. Obviously, having people attend those who have either tested positive or are the contacts of those who have tested positive does not comply with the latest hygiene protocol, but the noble Baroness is entirely right, and one way in which we could work harder is to use volunteers and community groups to provide pastoral and practical support for those isolating.

Hotel Quarantine for Travellers

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 3rd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord. He is right that additional vigilance is required. The advent of new variants that could have higher transmissibility or escape the vaccine is a complete game-changer, and that is why we have changed our approach to border management. We have upgraded our border control measures, and there will be further government announcements on that. We have introduced red lists of countries where there are variants of concern, and we have implemented Project Eagle, the tracing project to track down those who have tested positive in genomic sequencing for variants of concern.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that Australia is imposing a two-week quarantine for all travellers flying in from abroad, with no exceptions. My son, who has dual nationality, is flying out in March to take up a job. He must have a negative Covid test result before flying and stay in a hotel for two weeks at his own expense. Australia has shown the way; when does the Minister expect the UK to follow?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness is completely right to cite Australia, and we take our hat off to its remarkable achievement in using its island status to protect itself against the virus. We are responding to the challenge of new variants by upgrading our measures, and announcements on this will be made shortly. The CMO’s view on the variants of concern so far is that we should have a proportionate system, which means an upgrading and not necessarily an Australia-style system. But we are putting in place the kinds of measures that could be upgraded to an Australia-style system were there to be a threat of significant magnitude.

Covid-19: Vaccination

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 20th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, there have been glitches; I do not know whether there are lessons learned. However, I can share with the noble Lord that the practicalities of getting the Pfizer vaccine in particular—which, as he knows, requires deep-cold storage—into every part of the country are quite challenging, and we are trying to reach not only the big mass centres but community pharmacies and GP surgeries. The delivery of the vaccine to thousands and thousands of locations will always be a little uneven, and there have been occasions where we have deemed it the correct procedure to have people stood up for their vaccination even though we were not 100% sure of the delivery of the vaccination. That does create concern but I think has been the right approach to take.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, my question follows that of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea. For many in isolation, the appointment for their first jab is all that has kept them going, and the certainty of timing of the second has changed since the introduction of the vaccine regime. Can the Minister tell us whether that is to do with the region—there seem to be problems in the south-west—or is it demand, logistics or science?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, if I understood the noble Baroness’s question correctly, I reassure her that absolutely everyone’s details are registered in the national immunisation database, so everyone will receive an invitation for their second dose, as I mentioned earlier. However, the reason for having this longer period before the second dose is completely pragmatic. Every 250 doses saves a life, so it is absolutely essential that we get the maximum number of first doses out as quickly as possible. The MHRA, the JCVI and others have looked at the safety and efficacy of this approach, and they have found reassuring evidence that this will work extremely well. I take great joy in the fact that we have found a way to get the highest number of doses to the greatest number of people as quickly as we possibly can.

Health: Brain Tumours

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that brain tumours and brain cancer are some of the most awful situations, particularly because they so frequently affect the young. That is why infrastructure spend on brain tumour research has increased. I am pleased to say that we received 62 applications for research funding between May 2018 and 2020, 10 of which have been funded so far, but more can be done in that area. Supporting families is, of course, part of the responsibility of the charities and trusts involved, and I wish the best to all those families who have been hit by this awful condition.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, when this issue was raised at Questions on 19 November last year, the Minister suggested that the quality of applications needed improving. He kindly offered to meet research charities working in this area to facilitate this. Can he tell the House which of these charities he has met or has an appointment to meet and how many applications have since been received?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I have had three meetings, particularly with the Tessa Jowell Brain Cancer Mission, which has been extremely constructive and brought with it clinical expertise, patient groups and policymakers. Together we have worked on a plan, which I articulated in my opening remarks. It has emerged that it is not a question of the quality of the research applications. The quality of research in this area is fantastic. The problem is that we need to have better basic science at the very early stage of the pipeline in order to guide the later operable research suggestions. That is why we have organised the workshops, are feeding back to the applicants in the previous round of research and are actively engaged in this area.

Mental Health Act Reform

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Monday 18th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Lord is entirely right: when people experience a mental health crisis, they should be treated with consideration. Unfortunately, the police are sometimes at the front line of dealing with those with mental health difficulties. It is a stretch for them, and they should have the right training to be able to deal with a situation sensitively and they should have the right premises to be able to give people safe and secure environments. It is at the outer limits of their professional responsibilities, but we are doing as much as we can to put the training in place.

I remember from my own personal experience, when my father and my mother were sectioned, the consideration and thoughtfulness of those involved in both those processes. It is not all bad, but I take the noble Lord’s point.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the White Paper and the commitment to deliver person-centred care. Many health and social care professionals will need to change the way they work, which is both necessary and welcome. What is the national budget for training over the next five years and how soon will those being treated for mental health conditions expect to notice a difference in their care?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is entirely right: the training is critical in this area; it could not be more important. We have invested £500 million in mental health services and support for the NHS workforce to address this. I cannot give her the precise number that she has asked for, but I shall write to her if I can track it down. However, we recognise the urgency of the situation and we hope that the impact of this money will be felt as quickly as possible.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we support these amendments from the Government and from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, which relate to the creation of a statutory committee to provide advice to the Secretary of State. Government Amendment 50 would allow the creation of such a committee in relation to medical devices, and the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, in this group would require the Secretary of State to create the committee in Amendment 50, as the Government’s amendment states only that the Government “may” create the committee, not that they must.

No Secretary of State should be above independent advice. Amendment 50 is no bad thing, and of course any advisory committee on a statutory footing should consist of patients as well as experts. I understand that there might be kickback on the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, but a Secretary of State will rarely have expertise in medical devices, so an ad hoc independent committee to inform, advise and warn would be very valuable. A lot of thought will need to be given to working out its terms of reference. We therefore support Amendments 51 to 53. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said, it will also be critical to ensure how this committee will work alongside the MHRA.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I am enormously thankful for that constructive debate. This change to the Devices Expert Advisory Committee should be welcomed. It provides for if not equivalence then equality between the medicines and medical devices regimes. It provides for transparency, which we value enormously, and it indicates our direction of travel, the step change and the commitment to patient safety that the MHRA will enshrine.

As has been noted, the committee already exists. It currently meets, and it has an impact and an effect, but these measures mean that it will be strengthened. This change is put forward not solely by the Government; it was a recommendation in the review authored by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege. It adds to the collective picture of improvements that we are making, from future regulation of devices to the medical devices information system. I reassure my noble friend Lord Lansley that we have a profound commitment to creating a regulator in the MHRA that has international influence. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that patient representatives are already on the DEAC. As Dr June Raine made clear in her briefing to noble Lords, she and the MHRA are massively committed to the patient safety agenda and to mobilising the patient safety voice through instruments such as the DEAC but not solely through it.

It is a delegated power, but one that I hope noble Lords agree is contained. It will allow us to ensure that the structure and focus of the committee can be kept under review to make best use of its impact, and the regulations will be subject to public consultation and all the steps therein.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has tabled Amendments 51 to 53 to the government amendment, which would change the nature of the regulations such that they “must” rather than “may” be made. However, as I have set out, the committee already exists; it functions now. It will be strengthened by the regulations. We are committed to a more structured decision-making process that improves transparency. There is no equivocation or doubt; these regulations will be made.

The powers provided by Amendment 50 in my name will enable movement towards a more transparent, proactive, whole-life cycle approach to vigilance. Fundamentally, they will make a difference in the oversight of medical devices to the benefit of patients and patient safety.

I am grateful to noble Lords who have continued to shine a light on the importance of device safety. I hope that this additional tool in the arsenal demonstrates continued commitment and that I have provided sufficient reassurances for the noble Baroness to feel able to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

This amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Cumberlege and Lady Bennett, would require the Secretary of State to introduce proposals for a redress agency for those harmed by medicines and medical devices. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, said, the concept of a redress agency for those harmed in such a manner has been around for many years but has not been realised. However, in the light of the Cumberlege report, which has been a great catalyst for innovation, the Government must see that now is the time. This is a really practical and common-sense move that would provide support and relief for patients while also avoiding the need for costly litigation on both sides, saving the NHS a considerable amount of money which could be better spent.

The NHS has a duty to give proper support to those in its care who have been harmed. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said, there needs to be independent fact-finding, leading to a resolution process. He cited the NHS Redress Act 2006. I ask the Minister to reflect on this debate and to speak to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State, perhaps using his charm to persuade him to think again.

One advantage of being at home for this debate, in front of your own computer in your own study, is the opportunity quickly to look online to see how easy it is to find the relevant website. It took me a couple of searches before I came up with NHS Resolution, but it was not hugely helpful or intuitive. Therefore, would the Minister also feed that back to the Secretary of State and the people who manage these schemes?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, raises matters in Amendment 67 that he raised in Grand Committee. I completely recognise that they are of enormous concern right across the House. One could say that it is the £83 billion question. I know he is an advocate, as indeed are many noble Lords, of the conclusions of the Independent Medicines and Medical Devices Safety Review, led by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, and I commend him and other former Health Ministers in this place.

In Committee, we had a very helpful, substantial and informative discussion on the concept and merits of a redress agency. I know that the noble Lord indicated that he would return to these matters if it seemed likely that we were unable to give an update on the way in which the department is responding to the review. I understand that he seeks further assurances and I shall attempt to give them.

As I set out in Committee, we are determined to ensure the safety of medicines and devices so that harm is less likely to happen in the first place, and, when things do go wrong, we are committed to fair redress arrangements that work for all. However, for the reasons that I set out in Committee, we do not believe it is necessary to create a new body for the purpose of providing redress for medicines and devices.

First, routes already exist if patients believe they were harmed by medicines or medical devices. They can bring a legal claim in the courts either against the manufacturer on the basis of product liability or against the actions of an NHS provider or clinician.

Secondly, the Government and manufacturers already have the ability to set up redress schemes when necessary, and in fact they have done so already, where appropriate, without ever establishing an additional agency. Setting up an overarching redress agency could become an unnecessary addition to an already complex landscape.

Thirdly, we do not believe that a redress agency in this country would necessarily make products safer or drive the right incentives for industries which are usually directed from a global level. It is a fact of life that any extra costs to firms could impact the attractiveness of the UK as a place to market and manufacture products —something that we are committed to supporting.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked what, in the absence of wholesale changes, we are doing to improve things. Since its strategy, Delivering Fair Resolution and Learning From Harm, was launched in 2017, NHS Resolution has successfully reduced the number of cases going to litigation. In its 2019-20 accounts, it reported that 71% of claims are now resolved without court hearings, which is extremely encouraging.

This has been accompanied by a significant increase in the use of ADR—alternative dispute resolution, referred to by my noble friend Lord Lansley—with over 1,000 mediations undertaken by 31 March 2020, with a success rate of around 80%. This is again encouraging. As a result of the strategies employed on ADR and early resolution, overall time to resolution of cases had reduced since the NAO report by an average of 26 days. The new early notification scheme for obstetric cerebral palsy has ensured that many early admissions of liability and interim payments can be made to families within months. In answer to my noble friend Lord Lansley, we keep the whole arrangement under review and assess options all the time.

Covid-19: Vaccinations

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 13th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Lord is entirely right. The advent of the new variant, with its extremely high transmissibility, means that we all have to rethink our approach to the pandemic. We must all adopt habits that are uncomfortable and frustrating, of which mask-wearing is one good example. I know that colleagues in government are looking at ways in which restrictions should be refined. The Government do not take a view on intervening with members of the public; it is the personal responsibility of individuals to make decisions for themselves. The police certainly have very clear guidance on what interventions they should make, and it is best to leave it to them.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the scale of this rollout is truly impressive, and I join others in congratulating all those who have actually made it work in such a short time span. I live in a very rural area on the edge of Bodmin Moor. My local satellite surgery has closed because it cannot be made Covid secure, and the vaccination site is 18 miles away with no public transport connections. Would it be possible for older people who cannot get to the vaccination site to be vaccinated by a different practice, which is only five miles away by bus but in the other direction?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The short answer is yes, and absolutely. The noble Baroness makes a point that we understand vividly and extremely well. Many smaller GP surgeries simply are not physically capable of being Covid secure, as she rightly points out. We are taking a panoptic view of health records to ensure that the right GP surgeries which are open can offer the service to those who would not normally be reached.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 12th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and others have said, these amendments relate to sunset provisions and consolidated legislation. As we have already heard, the Bill is largely a skeleton Bill and allows the Secretary of State or a relevant authority to make legislation by statutory instrument on policy issues relating to human medicines, veterinary medicines and medical devices. Can the Minister confirm whether the SIs referred to will come before the House? Will he also confirm that the SIs we see will live up to the expectations of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and his committee?

It is important that there is a limit on how long the delegated powers should last. The amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, would mean that, after the suggested three years have elapsed, the policy objectives of the Government would be clearer and they could return with primary legislation. The amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, would require the Government to publish the consolidated primary legislation in draft form. We support these measures but, for the intervening period, we believe that the powers should be subject to the additional scrutiny required by my noble friend Lord Sharkey’s amendments in the next group.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for an extremely powerful session on these amendments. I confess that I completely share the aspiration voiced by many noble Lords about Britain having the best possible legislation on life sciences in the world. As the Life Sciences Minister, that is a natural ambition, but it is also a real possibility, and it is what we are working towards at the department, and through the Bill. But I have severe reservations about whether this approach is the right mechanism, and I would like to address those directly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has tabled Amendment 2, which relates to the sunset clause, and with this amendment it would be convenient to speak to Amendments 26, 27, 39, 40 and 63. I will come to Amendment 2 shortly but, first, I cannot say that Amendment 26 is a big surprise. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, who authored it, indicated as much when he and other noble Lords discussed these matters after the excellent debate in Grand Committee. The intent of his amendment is to require the Government to publish draft legislation within three years—legislation that consolidates medicines and medical devices regulation. I understand the arguments made during Committee, and again here today, that the regulation could benefit from clarification and those arguments made on how secondary legislation could be used. The amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, go further. They would append a sunset clause after three years—I repeat, three years—requiring not draft legislation but passed legislation.

I start by addressing the timing put forward. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, asks for the Government to publish draft legislation within three years of Royal Assent. I assume that he intends this consolidation effort to include changes made under the delegated powers in the Bill, including policy that may be made to, for example, take forward a national falsified medicines scheme. The noble Baroness’s amendment would have the delegated powers lapse entirely, leaving us without the ability to amend or supplement the regulatory regimes at that point. In reality, three years between Royal Assent and draft legislation ready for publication that consolidates the existing legislation and includes any changes made under the Bill is just not long enough. Each change to the regulatory regimes will take time. Public consultation must be conducted and amending regulations must be laid, debated and so on. We do not intend—in fact, it would not be possible—to front-load policy changes into the first half of 2021, let alone 2021 at all.

Noble Lords have spoken to the importance of consultation. I say it would not just be the Government front-loading legislation; it would be about asking the affected sectors to engage with a lot of consultation very quickly and in parallel. That does not seem the right way to go about it at all. It inevitably means that the sorts of exciting policy changes that support our life sciences sector and protect patients will take an enormous amount of time to stand up. Developing and consulting on policy proposals that require legislative changes takes time, as does the drafting of any proposed legislation. Before getting to the point of drafting the legislation and so on, you need to have made an assessment of what it would be appropriate to consolidate —and that takes time.

The Human Medicines Regulations 2012 were the product of a consolidation exercise that required extensive consultation. Consultations were run while explanatory documents setting out changes so far, and so on, were all prepared before the regulations were made. Let me be clear on the timescale involved in that exercise. A concept paper was issued by the MHRA in 2009. There was an expectation that consolidating human medicines regulations, including looking at the Medicines Act 1968, would take around three years to complete. That concept paper was put out to consultation; a response was published and further consultation took place in 2010.

The first complete draft of the regulations was published in August 2010 and a number of specific consultations also run in that year. A further consultation, following the consultation on the draft regulations of August, was run between October 2011 and January 2012. Three years is the time it takes to do the comprehensive exercise that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, alludes to in his amendment, and that exercise did not involve making up new primary legislation in the first place: it resulted in the Human Medicines Regulations 2012. The noble Lord has extended his amendments to medical devices and veterinary medicines as well.

The noble Lord cannot mean us to start a review the day after this Act is given Royal Assent, with the intention of bringing forward proposals within three years. There would be no legislation made under the Act to assess. I cannot see an exercise of seeing what to consolidate and then preparing the drafting taking less than a year altogether. In fact, it would more likely take much longer if the consolidation is intended to be as far-reaching as the noble Lord and others have very powerfully indicated. Taken together, the noble Lord’s amendments would mean that the process would need to start by 2022, but not all the legislative change to be brought forward under the Bill’s powers would yet be made and in effect.

I anticipate that a consolidation exercise as proposed by the noble Lord would wish to consider the practical effects and operation of such a complex and comprehensive body of legislation. In order to do that, we would need time for the secondary legislation to be made to deliver policy. Industry then has to comply with revised regulatory changes and the MHRA needs to assess how it works. This does not, as the noble Lord may recognise, amount to a realistic exercise. We will not have all the pieces to assess before he asks us to conduct the assessment and also provide an alternative. Change takes time. The standstill period for medical devices, for example, lasts two and a half years, in recognition of this, so while some changes are likely to be made to the regulatory regimes within three years, some will not. When his proposal amounts to no more than a year of operable amending legislation to assess and consolidate—perhaps less—it is therefore impracticable.

This issue is compounded by the noble Baroness’s Amendments 2, 27 and 40, which would introduce a sunset clause to the regulation-making powers in Parts 1, 2 and 3 of the Bill, in effect creating a new cliff edge at the end of three years, after which the existing regulatory regimes cannot be updated. If what the noble Baroness seeks is similar to what the noble Lord, Lord Patel, seeks—an assessment of whether secondary legislation is the right place for the regulatory regimes—I say to her that the means simply do not fit the ends. Introducing a cliff edge in legislation is unhelpful. It forces legislation on to the timescale of a sunset clause. It does not allow for pandemics or for the consideration of new developments that arise and need to be addressed.

The noble Baroness’s amendments would further compress the timescale, stripping out another year. Working back from a sunset clause of three years’ time, we would need Royal Assent of a new Act by then. Let us be generous and provide for a year of parliamentary scrutiny. We began this Bill in February last year; it is January now and we must allow parliamentary drafters to do their job of translating policy intent into clauses. The noble Baroness and the noble Lord have both argued in favour of a very different drafting approach: let us give them, say, a year. While that may seem a long time, I suggest that many noble Lords have experienced the challenges of drafting amendments. There are questions about intent and about the choice of language, and these would apply to tens and possibly hundreds of clauses. Suddenly, that time is not very long at all. That then leaves us with a year from Royal Assent to begin the drafting process—not even the assessment process. All the problems I have already mentioned, including the inability to set up a regime to assess and not only pass legislation but implement that legislation, apply, but much more urgently.

We must also consider the impact on those who are being regulated. The arguments I advanced in Committee on the uncertainty that this would create for businesses, manufacturers and, importantly, patients apply very gravely but would become even more critical. In effect, we would be making regulation in 2021—potentially substantive, bold new regulation to protect patients from harm and ensure the highest standards of safety for medical devices—but we would also be saying that this would be immediately under review, and potentially completely rewritten within three years. The new policy to be delivered by these regulatory changes would not be able to come into force, be implemented and enforced before we would be back here again. I simply cannot think that this is good regulation.

I am sympathetic to the issue of how Parliament assesses our plans. There are, of course, avenues open to Parliament to consider whether it wishes to express a view to the Government on any particular topic. We have Select Committees to scrutinise government policy and we have provided for a reporting requirement in the Bill that gives Parliament the opportunity to reflect on the legislation we have made under the Bill in the first two years and any plans we have at that point to make further changes in response to concerns and proposals raised in relation to it. There are institutions such as the Law Commission that can be called upon to take a view on whether legislation is the right legislation, or too complex. However, if noble Lords want me to say, “In three years, we will have made changes under this Bill that are right to consolidate, and we will be in a position then to review and assess and produce something for Parliament to look at,” I simply cannot give them that assurance; nor can I say anything similar to the noble Baroness.

We need to make changes to the regulatory regimes and follow the full and thorough processes to do so, including public consultation and, most likely, draft affirmative amending regulations. We need to have them working, understood and operable by industry and the regulators. Getting that up and running is where I think we need to direct our resources, before we can think about reviews of how it works. To that end, I hope the noble Baroness understands why I am not able to concede here. I hope she feels able to withdraw her amendment and that the noble Lord will not feel compelled to press his.

Obesity

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 5th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Lord rightly alluded to the Better Health campaign, and I remind him that we did relaunch it yesterday. That went extremely well and got a lot of coverage. But there is only so much that government advertising can do; I do not think that we can advertise our way out of this problem. It is up to individuals to make their own decisions, it is up to GPs to give the support that people need and it is up to us as a society to accept that the health of the nation is important to its resilience and to its long-term health. Until those decisions are made, we struggle to make progress in this area.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, what works in rural Cornwall may not work in metropolitan Camden. Could the Minister tell the House whether there is a plan to require local integrated care systems to develop a local obesity prevention and treatment strategy for their population, strengthening existing services and sharing good practice across the national network?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

Yes, I am glad to be able to reassure the noble Baroness that ICSs will be instructed to take obesity as part of one of their primary framework objectives. In fact, that is a very good example of how ICSs will make a big impact on complex issues such as obesity and how that impact will be felt in far-flung communities such as those in Cornwall.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 15th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

I support the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on lockdown; she and I have repeated them regularly in these debates, and yet there is no change. My points will be around vaccines, acute hospitals and their staffing, and Christmas. I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and join him in welcoming the news about vaccines. Anyone in need of a real feelgood story should watch last night’s “Panorama” programme about the development of the Oxford team’s AstraZeneca vaccine.

How confident is the Minister of 100% vaccine coverage, for those that are entitled, by Easter 2021? This is a lot of people, and we are not certain of all vaccines being available by that time. Could he explain to the House what determines who receives the AstraZeneca vaccine and who the Pfizer—or indeed any other vaccine that may come along? Is he confident that the new vaccines will be effective against the new variant that is emerging?

Can the Minister give us a statement about acute hospitals in tier 3 areas? At the moment, it looks as though the rise in cases in the London area and the south-east is almost matched by the rise in hospital admissions—they are just a percentage point apart. Are the Government confident in London’s hospital capacity? We know that, in some areas, there are Nightingale hospitals; is the NHS intending to bring them into use if necessary? Are there the clinical and other staff to run them?

For many of us, an in-person Christmas may not be possible. We need to look at the impacts that Thanksgiving had on the US Covid-19 figures and assess our risk. Many of my contemporaries have decided not to travel to celebrate with friends and family, and our children have told us that this is what we are going to do as well, so it looks as if many will be resorting to whatever is their favourite conferencing software to catch up with family.

Finally, will the Minister outline the Government’s communication strategy for Christmas? Clear messaging is imperative but many of the public who have been interviewed are unclear. Will ads be used in newspapers, broadcasts and online social media? Christmas is 10 days away, and people would appreciate a clear steer from the Government. This needs urgent and professional communications attention.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful for the clear and thoughtful questioning from the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Jolly. Both of them are right: we are seeing a sharp rise in south Wales, London and parts of the east and south-east of England, which is making us rethink some of our approach to Christmas. We have seen a sharp rise in the virus across London, Kent, parts of Essex and Hertfordshire, and reports of a new variant. We saw the evidence of this starting in the 15 to 19 year-old age group and we have taken swift and decisive action but, unfortunately, more may be necessary. We know that this rise will be mirrored in hospital admissions, and it takes only a few doubling times to put pressure on the NHS. The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, is absolutely right to question whether we have the resources in place to see such doubling take place over time. This is a trend we are seeing all over Europe, in countries such as Sweden, where nearly all the intensive care in Stockholm is currently in use, and even in Germany, where tougher new restrictions were announced over the weekend.

It is entirely natural that we look very closely at the Christmas relaxation, but I am not in a position to share any update on that this evening. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked: what is the Secretary of State’s plan to keep us safe? We have plans, and I will be glad to share them with noble Lords. However, may I just say a word about personal responsibility? The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, put it well: it is up to each and every one of us to decide whether we will take a minimalist or maximalist interpretation of the rules. At the end of the day, it is a personal decision on what kind of risk approach one will take to Christmas. The SAGE advice has been published and it is clear. It does not make very comfortable reading for those of us with elderly relations who have been looking forward to seeing us, but it clearly states that we should be looking to spend time at Christmas with as few people as possible for as short a time as possible and, wherever possible, outside instead of inside. I am afraid to say that that will be what a responsible Christmas looks like for everyone. It is not something that the Secretary of State can ordain; it is, unfortunately, what the spread of the virus requires.

I acknowledge—the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton alluded to this—that the tier 3 regimes, particularly in the north of England, have had a profound impact. The behaviours of people in the tier 3 areas have been considerably amended, and that has seen a sharp reduction in the infection rates in those areas. It demonstrates that restraint works, and I take a moment to applaud all those who have played a role in that achievement.

On the vaccine, I will be very happy to provide an update on the special cases that the noble Baronesses alluded to. Both the case for unpaid carers and the case for the terminally ill are powerful, and we are listening carefully to them as they are made. However, the JCVI has put in its priority decision and that is what we are working to at the moment. Any further complications or refinements to that create profound operational challenges, but we are listening very sensitively to the case being made for the special cases.

I share the tribute of the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, to the AstraZeneca team. The “Panorama” programme last night was a tonic for the soul during these difficult times, and I would recommend it to everyone.

As to the new variant to which the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, alluded, the preliminary scientific judgment is that it does not at the moment show any evidence that it will escape either the vaccine or any other therapeutics that are targeted at Covid. That is always the natural concern in these circumstances; we are studying it very carefully indeed and will, of course, update the House if any changes do emerge. However, the new variant, which has been correlated with higher levels of transmissibility in Kent, does remind us that the threat of Covid is undiminished and we must remain committed to the restrictions in place to contain this horrible virus.

Care Quality Commission Report

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 15th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, is right to flag that this is not the first time that we have heard this catalogue of appalling treatment. The shame is that in some places local authorities and the NHS use a one-size-fits-all approach to commissioning services. We have to put the individual in care at the centre and treat them and their needs. When did a Minister last issue commissioning guidance to local authorities and the NHS in this matter, as the partners that have to commission the process? What family involvement is recommended in those conversations?

[Lord Bethell (Con) [V]]

I cannot go into details of commissioning guidance in this short Question, but I reassure the noble Baroness that, when it comes to family involvement, new guidance has been issued in response to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which puts family involvement in any seclusion or restraint decision. That is an immediate development since the report in October.

Covid-19 Vaccine Rollout

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 9th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, the JCVI has laid out a clear prioritisation, putting great emphasis on those who are older—the over-80s—and those in social care. The vaccine will come to those who are shielded and living alone in due time. There are some practical issues with getting the current Pfizer vaccine: as the noble Baroness undoubtedly knows, it has to be kept in cold storage and comes in substantial batches, which are difficult to break up. The initial cohort consists of 6 million people—those over 80, and the health and social care workers who support them. As for future vaccines, those looking forward to being vaccinated should wait for a letter. Those letters are being organised through their doctors, who have access to a central database to ensure that the right prioritisation takes place.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

I thank the Minister for the update, and join others in celebrating the good news about the first vaccines, administered yesterday. There are several different vaccines in the pipeline. Can the Minister update us on where they all are in terms of MHRA approval, and therefore of uptake? How many doses will be available, and by when?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the precise status of each vaccine in the pipeline is a subject for dialogue between the vaccine manufacturers and the MHRA. I can tell the noble Baroness that we are extremely encouraged by the substantial number of vaccines in the pipeline. The safety data for all those for which we know the response is also extremely encouraging. AstraZeneca—the one that most eyes are on—is making good progress, but I am afraid that I cannot give a clear or confirmed time for when, or if, it will be authorised. As for doses, as the noble Baroness probably knows, we have committed to more than 320 million doses overall. The precise details of those are published on the Vaccine Taskforce website, and I would be glad to send her a link to that, so that she can get all the details.

Coronavirus Vaccine

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Thursday 3rd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

No one can deny that the news about the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is just what we need as the days get shorter and Christmas still seems some way off. The technical achievement is enormous, and I am happy to congratulate all those involved in the creation of the vaccine, in the lightning regulation process and in its manufacture. The logistical challenge is next, and I feel sure that, again, the armed services will figure highly here.

Some time ago, I asked the Minister who might carry out the vaccinations. There are not enough NHS staff free to do it. Is there a plan to train others? The training is very short and needs no clinical background whatever. I seem to remember that student friends, when training to be doctors, would practise their technique by injecting oranges. I understand that it will be at least Easter before all the population has received the first round of the Pfizer vaccine and midsummer before we have all had the two jabs.

Can the Minister clarify what sort of immunity someone would have if they failed to get the second jab? What is the timescale of the availability of the other vaccines that we know are in the pipeline? When do we expect all the population of the UK who are willing to be vaccinated to have received their vaccine, and does he have an indication of how many will refuse it?

Vaccine is not a magic bullet—yet. Those of us who will not get it for some time will have to be careful and adhere to the rules outlined by the Government. We might be surprised that not everyone is aware of the symptoms of the virus—the cough and the loss of taste and smell, along with flu-like symptoms. They have not been part of the messaging but, on prevention, we all know “hands, face, space”. Was there a reason that the messaging did not include symptoms? I appreciate that if you are an avid follower of the PM’s No. 10 virus briefings, all that information is at your fingertips, but for many these are not required viewing. How much is the department using Instagram, Facebook and Twitter to get these messages out? If it is not using them, why not? For months to come, people will be testing positive, and anyone who does will still be required to quarantine.

I would like to spend the rest of my time addressing some issues relating to self-isolation that have come from research by King’s College London, based on surveys carried out by the Department of Health and Social Care. Many of us who have been in this situation isolate, as that is doing our bit to prevent the spread of the virus. King’s found that intentions to isolate were high but, when it came to sticking to it, the numbers were low. It found that there were both practical and psychological barriers to an effective isolation system. Practically, there is the issue of finance. The evidence suggests that those of a lower socioeconomic status with dependent children or older relatives struggle financially or lose their pay if they self-isolate, and they choose to ignore the advice.

The £500 grant has not been available since the onset of the lockdowns, and £250 does not cover all the costs for a family for a week if you lose your wage. If a child has to go into quarantine, there is no eligibility for support, yet in all probability a parent will have to take time off work to care for the child. Not all employers continue paying a salary to those isolating or caring for someone who is isolating.

The data that I referred to came from a series of surveys carried out by the department. Is that data in the public domain? It would be really interesting to see the breakdown by geography and demography.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, I am enormously grateful for that large number of thoughtful and nuanced questions, and I will try to cover as much ground as I possibly can.

I start by supporting the noble Baronesses’ tribute to the MHRA. It has played a complete blinder. It has quietly worked since January for this very moment. It has thrown an enormous amount of expertise, diligence and professionalism at the extremely challenging task of managing this vaccine authorisation, and it is to its massive credit that it has landed with an enormous amount of confidence and has been greeted so well.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, asked about EU law and exactly where we stand in terms of Brexit. She is exactly right that this authorisation was done under the terms of European law, and the carve-out that we took was indeed completely within the realms of European law. I pay tribute to the international collaboration that lay behind this vaccine—among the inventors, with their Turkish-German background, with the contributions of the German company that founded the vaccine and of the Americans, who have marketed and distributed it. In fact, the collaboration behind it has been global.

However, there is something British about it as well. In Britain, we have a long-standing commitment to research into infectious diseases, and that has created an enormously strong framework and foundation for the work that we have done. At universities such as Oxford, where the Jenner Institute is based, and Imperial, we have established a terrific international reputation for our work on infectious diseases.

The regulator, the MHRA, has gone about its work with an enormous amount of confidence and expertise. That has meant that it has been able to handle, in parallel, the clinical trials for efficacy and the reviews for safety. It analysed huge amounts of data in parallel in real time, so that it could turn around the authorisation promptly and confidently when presented with the final data.

The commercial effectiveness of the Vaccine Taskforce has been phenomenal. It has secured contracts for a large number of vaccines, which has meant that manufacturing has been able to take place in advance, and delivery of the vaccine, which is happening as we speak, is able to take place promptly. On the enormous amount of collaboration on the deployment of the vaccine, about which the noble Baroness asked, I pay tribute to colleagues in the NHS, NHSD, the military, and those in social care and logistics. There has been enormous collaboration across the piece.

The noble Baroness asked exactly what figures there are for delivery and when it is scheduled to take place. I am afraid that I cannot give the precise schedule, but I reassure her that, as soon as we know the precise timetable, we will publish it to give the confidence and reassurance to the public that, quite reasonably, they would like.

The noble Baroness is entirely right that social care is our number one priority. The prioritisation list from the JCVI is crystal clear. It also presents a big challenge because, as she knows, the Pfizer vaccine requires cold storage. It comes in units of more than 100 vials. We do not want to waste this extremely valuable vaccine, so we are having to work closely with social care colleagues and the NHS to ensure that workers and those in social care can receive it. That will be difficult, and I do not doubt that there will be problems, particularly, as the noble Baroness pointed out, with getting the vaccine to small units of social care. However, I reassure her that colleagues are working on that night and day and are very focused on delivering a solution.

The noble Baroness asked whether those who take the vaccine will need to isolate. Yes, they will, and that will have to continue for a while. The truth is that we do not know whether taking the vaccine will reduce transmissibility. Our suspicion is that it will, but until we have the clinical evidence that that is the case, we have to be pragmatic and ensure the safety of the public. However, we are working extremely hard on trying to resolve that issue, and I reassure the noble Baroness, care home managers and those who live and work in social care that they are at the top of the priority list.

The noble Baroness also asked me about delivery of the vaccine from Belgium. I reassure her that there are numerous fallback plans for all kinds of scenarios and that the transport arrangements for this valuable cargo have been thought through incredibly carefully.

The intention is not to roll out mass testing or community testing in every single local authority before Christmas. We are working with those local authorities that have stepped forward and that either are the most keen or have the highest infection rates, to ensure that the partnerships that we have in place develop really good best practice and that those directors of public health who are the most energetic have the resources they need to develop new models. That work is happening at pace and we get updates on it every day. It promises to be an extremely effective model for cutting the chain of transmission.

I pay particular tribute to universities, which have worked extremely closely with both the Department for Education and the department of health to ensure that there is community testing on campus, so that the migration home before Christmas is done safely and effectively.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, is entirely right that apparently it is not very difficult to learn how to give an injection. I have been offered a training course, but I am not sure that anyone would actually want an injection from me. However, I reassure her that we have mobilised an enormous army of people to administer the vaccine. That includes those existing in the NHS and social care as well as pharmacists, who have stepped up massively and to whom we are very grateful, and it will include the return to service of many retired healthcare professionals, to whom we are enormously grateful.

As the noble Baroness pointed out, there is a pipeline of vaccines coming through, not least the British one developed at Oxford University in collaboration with AstraZeneca. I cannot give her a schedule on precisely when all of those will be delivered, but it is extremely promising that there are between half a dozen and a dozen vaccines on their way. It serves as an indication of how science has ridden to the rescue to help us out of this awful pandemic.

Regarding those who are either sceptical or refusing a vaccine, we are reassured that concerns about the vaccine are at present relatively low. We are engaging with anyone who has a concern about the vaccine with respect and in a spirit of dialogue to try to present the evidence in a transparent and reassuring way. That approach seems to have paid dividends, and I am encouraged that the British public will be stepping forward for the vaccine in very large numbers.

I reassure the noble Baroness that we have a massive social media campaign to engage the public. I pay tribute to the media teams in the department and the Cabinet Office, who have worked incredibly hard throughout the entire pandemic and have handled literally dozens of campaigns, often at pace, with enormous creativity and diligence—and have got sign-off from Ministers, which is no mean feat at times—under difficult circumstances. They deserve all our thanks and praise.

Lastly, on the noble Baroness’s quite important questions about isolation, she is absolutely right: isolation is key. There is no point in testing and tracing if you do not isolate. However, the surveys that she refers to are fragmented. I am not sure if some of the simple surveys actually tell the whole truth. In honesty, people’s response to isolation is probably more subtle than simple binary questions would suggest. We are beginning to understand that many who are isolating, although they may not have completely obeyed every strict command in the isolation protocols, have massively changed their behaviours, and we are looking at ways of supporting those people through civic and financial support and through our messaging to ensure that the isolation protocols are as effective as possible.

HIV: Pre-exposure Prophylaxis

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 1st December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a fair point. The rollout of PrEP has reached a great many local authorities but not all of them. The funding for it, at £11 million, has made a big impact but it has not covered all the ground. We are aware that this funding package runs out next year and we are in active engagement with local authorities in order to find a new mechanism going forward before July, when the funding will change. That said, our commitment, as I said earlier, to the principle of PrEP and its impact on reaching our targets for transmission remains resolute. I look forward to being able to announce a resolution of this funding formula.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)[V]]

My Lords, access to sexual health services has always been more difficult in far-flung areas such as Cumbria and Cornwall. Often, young gay men do not like approaching the GPs they have known since childhood. The Minister referred in an earlier answer to PrEP. Is he confident that there are adequate alternative opportunities to get local access to PrEP? Will he commit to talking to those in the department who deal with the plan, and will he write to me with a date when PrEP might be easily accessible all across England and put the response in the Library?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an entirely fair point. Access to PrEP is not as even as it could or should be. It is a very important tool in our fight against the transmission of HIV, and it is a programme that we support wholeheartedly. However, it takes time to roll out a therapeutic such as this through the entire healthcare system. We have focused its supply through sexual health units because they are the most thoughtful and reliable places for the kind of consultation and expertise needed for a delicate new therapeutic like PrEP. However, she raises a good point that perhaps this should be and could be updated.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Monday 30th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

I thank the Minister who is going to respond to this Statement.

The first case of this coronavirus was just over a year ago, on 17 November 2019. Since then, over 1.3 million people have died worldwide and over 50 million people have been infected. The first case here in the UK was on 29 January this year. We watched Italy deal with the cases in late winter, and I am sure that plans were being fetched out of the archives on how we might deal with a pandemic. I know that in 2015 there was a pandemic plan published for an influenza outbreak. Will the Minister tell the House what lessons were learned from that exercise?

I remember walking back to my flat in London on 17 March and my son, who was living with me then, said, “You either go home today, or you stay until this clears”. I went home, and on 23 March lockdown started. Along with many other noble Lords, I stayed away for some considerable time, and Zoom, Teams and virtual working became the new normal.

Hong Kong, which is always waiting for a SARS outbreak, keeps a stock of PPE for all care homes in the event of a pandemic. Is it too early to ask the Minister whether that is something he would now consider for England? I think it was a recommendation of that pandemic preparedness document in 2015.

One area where I would also be grateful for clarification is that of test, track and isolate. At what stage was it decided not to involve the local experts and local authorities? This caused much regional frustration, as this was the biggest public health crisis for many years, and local public health leaders were being sidelined. They know their regions well, and in areas where they did work, it worked well. Let me be clear that in a Lib Dem world, local authorities would test then track those with a positive result and support them practically and emotionally in their isolation.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has articulated, many of the public have said that they did not fully understand restrictions. When putting messages together, who did the Government picture they were talking to? From whom did they get their advice? Who did they test their messaging on? This is a case where conversations with the Plain English Campaign, or perhaps the Canadians, would have been helpful.

The last time tiered restrictions were in place, less than half of people in the UCL Covid-19 Social Study said that they fully understood the rules. With changes to the tier system and a five-day relaxation, will the Secretary of State make changes to the Government’s communications strategy to aid compliance?

Some of the Covid economic measures have helped people in the short term, such as the furlough scheme, which our colleagues in the other place fought so hard to get. However, the Government excluded more than 1 million people from Covid support and froze pay for local authority staff, who have also played a vital role in combating this pernicious disease. It is an assault on local authority workers and services.

Nurses too have been hoping for a pay rise. The Chancellor stated:

“Our health emergency is not yet over and our economic emergency has only just begun”.


He explained that the

“immediate priority is to protect people’s lives and livelihoods”,

and that the spending review is set to deliver stronger public services. He continued:

“taking account of the pay review bodies’ advice, we will provide a pay rise to over a million nurses, doctors and others working in the NHS.”

He promised

“the 2.1 million public sector workers who earn below the median wage of £24,000”

that they

“will be guaranteed a pay rise of at least £250.”—[Official Report, Commons, 25/11/20; cols. 827-28.]

That should include porters, auxiliaries, and other key, low-paid hospital workers.

Countless families are facing serious financial hardship. More than 1 million people have lost their jobs, and the devastating impact of this pandemic will continue to be felt acutely throughout the next year. We are also facing big challenges in deep-seated inequality. We must ensure that no one is left behind. The Government win plaudits for the furlough scheme, but they have failed to provide a serious economic strategy for dealing with unemployment, climate change and inequality. I fear the Government’s Brexit plans will make job losses and business closures much worse. No deal or a bad deal would be a huge blow for businesses and jobs just when we need to be recovering from this crisis.

Although the winter plan broadly outlines the five criteria used for determining the tier system, would the Minister be more transparent about what the exact entry and exit points of the tiers will be? I understand it is not always possible to give exact criteria, but even a rough idea would help the public know what they are aiming for when the Government are asking them to make so many sacrifices.

This has been relentless since the middle of May. At a briefing meeting today, we heard that the acute care sector was at full pelt, and this is before winter sets in. The Minister is rightly proud of the Nightingale units. Do we have staffing for them? Should we need them? Many clinical staff are totally exhausted. Many question whether they want to carry on in the profession. Are the Government making sure that a safety-critical profession can reach safe staffing levels by filling tens of thousands of unfilled nursing jobs?

Children are the most vulnerable to the social impacts of local restrictions and have had formative years of their lives severely affected. With the rule of six being reinstated after national lockdown, will the Minister commit to an exemption from the rule of six for children under 12? It really does make sense.

What is the Minister’s current estimation of the likely length of the restrictions? Being open and transparent on likely timings and not creating false hope are critical to maintaining public support for any public health measures. After all, the PM said earlier this year that we would be back to normal by Christmas, and how wrong he turned out to be.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses for their thoughtful and searching questions on an important day’s traffic of announcements from the Government. I would like to try to tackle them as comprehensively as I can, but I assure both noble Baronesses that I will write to them on any points I fail to address in these comments.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, started by saying that she felt the endless cycle of lockdowns had not been working. It is undoubtedly true that we all regret the return to a national lockdown earlier this month, but it is not true they do not work. New infections are down by a third, and that is an enormous achievement by the British public, whose discipline and obedience to the restrictions has yielded a massive dividend.

The noble Baroness said that test and trace was not working. It is undoubtedly true that when prevalence levels are so high, when there are more than half a million infections in the country and when new infections are running at five digits, it is extremely challenging for any national testing and tracing system to keep up with that sort of capacity. I beg the noble Baroness to give some ground and acknowledge the achievement of the huge scaling of the number of tests, the vast number of people who have been asked to isolate, thereby breaking the chain of transmission, and the hard work of those who work on the tracing side of the business, which has dramatically increased its performance and will continue to meet target numbers.

The noble Baroness also talked about care homes being stranded. I remind her that we have come a huge distance. I could reel off a dozen achievements in the care homes strategy, but two stand out. First is the regular testing of staff, which has now become a systematic programme that has massively protected those in care homes. There has also been the recent introduction of testing for visitors, which brings welcome relief for those needing to support and visit those in care homes, a much-valued service that needed a huge amount of work to put into place.

The noble Baroness talked about the role of the public. I have alluded to my respect for and thanks to the public. I will be crystal clear: the challenge that we face as a country is not public apathy but the virus itself. There is an absolutely vicious aspect of the virus, which is its high contagiousness. In a room with a few people together, it is quite unlike most contagious diseases in its infectiousness. When we talk about the challenge of social distancing and the need for lockdowns, it is not one another whom we blame: it is the virus itself. I encourage all those who feel frustrated to remember who the enemy is.

The noble Baroness asked whether the tiering allocations would be done in consultation with local authorities. The brief answer to that question is no. We tried that, but it did not prove a successful experiment. The acrimony and large amount of delays created long-standing problems for the implementation of the policy. Therefore, we will be implementing the tiering on a fortnightly basis from the centre. It is a big yes, however, on the approach to community testing and infection control. We absolutely want to work in partnership with local authorities and local DPHs, which have all the powers that they need to decide whom they seek to target and what incentives they would like to provide for those who need to be attracted to testing. I also say yes—absolutely—to transparency, both in terms of the publication of the numbers and our approach to our collaborations. I put on record our massive thanks to local authorities, particularly those that have been working with us over the last fortnight on our community testing programme, the publication of which earlier today is a really important framework of the local-national partnership of which I have spoken at this Dispatch Box many times. It really brings alive that commitment.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, was entirely right that there was an influenza plan, but it envisaged a completely different type of virus. The lessons from the influenza plan, though relevant for the kind of flu envisaged, were not applicable for the coronavirus. A good example of that is the PPE. Had we followed the possibility of preparing a massive stock of PPE for the kind of flu envisaged in the influenza plan, we would have had the wrong kind of PPE. There was nothing that we could have done about that.

The other big learning was on mortality rates. The mortality rates for Covid-19 and the long-standing effects that it has on people are completely unlike those of the kind of flu that we were envisaging earlier. It has been a grave learning curve to have to change our plans to deal with Covid.



In relation to other learnings or things that we have moved on since then, I reiterate a theme that I have mentioned before: our commitment to national and local test and trace. Quite understandably, the noble Baroness challenges me on that point, but I gently remind her that, in February, local authorities did not have any tests; nobody had any tests. We were doing 2,000 tests a day. Therefore, it is all very well saying that we should have left test and trace to local authorities, but there simply were not the resources there to do that. It took a massive national programme and huge national effort to get us up to half a million tests a day, which is something that the local authorities, even in collaboration, could not possibly have done.

The local authorities also did not have scalable tracing capacity. The PHE capacity was designed for ultra-low prevalence rates—for when you are chasing a few dozen carriers of a disease who, perhaps, have recently arrived from overseas. It was not designed for 20,000 infections a day, which is the kind of infection rate we have been looking at recently. It was only by building the data systems, protocols and guidelines, and having tens of thousands of employees, that we have been able to put that tracing capacity in place.

We also did not have the organisational or analytical capacity to do the kind of surveillance that is done through ONS and REACT or the kind of data management that the JBC has done. Now that we have those components in place—the physical, data and diagnostic frameworks—we are in a position to work as a team, both nationally and locally. The noble Baroness is entirely right that that local insight, intelligence, empathy and leadership are absolutely critical for our success, and I encourage her and all those in the Chamber to read our community testing programme, which was published earlier today and which encapsulates the spirit of the local-national partnership of which the noble Baroness has spoken previously in the Chamber.

The noble Baroness challenges me on communications, and I will not deny that it has been one of the great challenges of the pandemic to try to explain, in a fast-changing and confusing climate, the government imperative and recommendations to the public. One of the key things that we have learned is that, sometimes, the desire to share the delicious complexity of the epidemiology stands in the way of simple communication. Sometimes, trying to find the exemptions that are fair to everyone and cater to every single consultative recommendation stands in the way of simplicity, straightforwardness and tractability.

We have learned that, sometimes, it is more important to be simple, clear and straightforward than to try to accommodate every nuance and exception. This is why we have pursued rules like the rule of six, have gone for a simple and easily understood regional tiering process and applied the 10 pm curfew, although we have updated that to an 11 pm curfew, with a drinking-up time of 10 pm. That kind of consistent messaging is what the public, quite reasonably, respond to, which is why we have moved to it.

In response to the noble Baroness’s question about under-12s, I say that there are both the communication and epidemiological reasons that children are vectors of disease. This is an uncomfortable truth because they very infrequently show any symptoms and it is incredibly inconvenient—I say this as someone with four children, three of whom are under 12. However, it would be epidemiologically irresponsible to try to make an exception in that way, and I certainly will be spending quite a lot of Christmas with my family.

In relation to hardship, the noble Baroness makes the point extremely well, and we are totally sympathetic to her point. It is undoubtedly true that the least advantaged will be the hardest hit by this epidemic. It is true because their jobs are hit hardest, particularly those in casual labour, because the virus often hits those who have the most cramped accommodation or low-quality health and because many of those who live on the borderline of life will be the ones nudged into poverty.

The Government have worked hard, with the furlough scheme in particular, to ensure that a financial safety net is put into place, but I have no doubt that there will be a moment when the economic hardship created by the pandemic will be acute, and I have no doubt that the mental health implications of that for the population will be extremely hard. The Government are extremely aware of that and we are trying our hardest to minimise the impact. One reason why we are hitting the virus hard with these tiers is to ensure that we can get the economy back as quickly as we can, mostly to the advantage of those who are hit the hardest.

The noble Baroness asked me about entry and exit points to the tiers, and I have no easy solution for her. There are very clear considerations which we will be looking at when we consider which regions go into which tier: case detection rates, particularly of those over 60; the rate at which cases are falling; the positivity rate; and pressure on the NHS. But this is an incredibly complex matrix of interdependencies. It is not simple to plop it into the kind of easy algorithm that can churn out an answer at the push of a button; nor is it easy to have one simple metric where we can say, “You’ve hit this and therefore you move this way,” or “You’ve failed and you move that way.” If it were so easy we would publish it. The best advice we can get is that we have to consider all those factors when making those decisions. We will do it in a spirit of transparency, but we will have to make tough decisions. I reassure noble Lords that it will happen every two weeks, as the Prime Minister explained, and we will seek to be as fair and thorough as we possibly can.

Brain Tumour Research

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Thursday 19th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I hear the noble Lord’s words loud and clear. I reassure him that the good news is that Tessa Jowell left behind her in the Tessa Jowell Brain Cancer Mission an incredibly effective organisation that is holding the feet of Ministers firmly to the fire —not least through my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy, who is on my case in a very big way.

I recognise that this is one of the tricky scientific challenges of our age. We have struggled to tackle adult brain tumours for a very long time. There has to be investment in the basic science around them, in the techniques, such as the very focused radiology, and in provable therapeutics that work in the field. This is not going to happen overnight, but I reassure the noble Lord that we are committed to finding a solution.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Reid, referred to Baroness Jowell’s final speech, when she told us not to give up fighting this pernicious cancer. The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, the then Minister, gave the assurance that the Government would not cease support for research into new treatments. Can the Minister confirm how many more research programmes into brain tumour treatments and therapies have been funded by NIHR since then? Is he confident that enough is being done?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I have a table of all the brain tumour research projects that we have backed over the last 10 years and I would be very glad to share it with the noble Baroness in correspondence. The short answer is, not enough. I would like there to be more grants and of higher value, but I recognise the challenge. When I speak to the scientists—even Richard Gilbertson, who is a very measured practitioner in this area—they recognise that more work needs to be done at an earlier stage to ensure that they are the kinds of projects that the NIHR system can back. We need to have a conversation about how we can encourage the early-stage science and the creative drafting of fresh ideas for that pipeline. That is something that I am very keen to get on with and have a dialogue about.

Covid-19: Conflicts of Interest

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 18th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for referring to my calls. I would have made a lot more than 300 calls then, because those were extremely difficult times. I would remind him that the NAO report says that we found Ministers had properly declared their interests, and we found no evidence of their involvement in procurement decisions or contract management. Ministers were not involved in procurement decisions; they facilitated the introduction of potential suppliers at a time when there was a massive global crisis. Supplies to this country were being abducted by other countries, supply chains had broken down, the channel tunnel was constrained and the Indian transport system had ground to a halt. Presidents were literally diverting planes in the air with supplies meant for one country and grabbing them for their own. In those circumstances, Ministers and their advisers intervened to get the right supplies to the front line to help those seeking PPE. Those were extremely energetic efforts. I am extremely proud of that work. Procurement decisions were left to civil servants.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, Ministers have many opportunities to meet a wide range of individuals and organisations in the course of their work, and they have to declare their interests. Is it the department’s HR department or its Ministers who are responsible for ensuring that spads understand both their role and their boundaries, and that they stay within them?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, there is a very clear code for special advisers. They have line management through the Secretary of State and often on to Downing Street. The role of spads during the pandemic has been exceptional. I pay tribute to the large number of spads who made a huge difference, and I am very proud of the work that they have done.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, these amendments relate to consultation. My noble friend Lord Sharkey’s Amendment 129, to which I have added my name, specifies some people or classes of people who should be involved but who have in the past been omitted—patients or representatives of patient groups, medical research bodies, the pharmaceutical industry and academic researchers.

My noble friend asked a good question of the Minister about why the consultation in Northern Ireland is with the department and not the Minister. The Select Committee on which I sit has engaged with the Northern Ireland Government in various areas of policy. They often do things well, but they do it their way.

The amendment also calls for details about consultation timings, consultees and proposed publication details. The point the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, made about contacting patients was a really good one. His remarks follow on from those of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. Many consultations involve patients, but they are often with what I might call professional patients. This is not a derogatory statement, but sometimes they are the usual suspects and the story does not change. That can lead to a loss of a total patient view.

Government Amendment 126

“requires a relevant authority to carry out a public consultation before making regulations under any provision of Part 1, 2 or 3, and to set out the authority’s assessment of any matter to which the authority must have regard in making the regulations”.

It also requires the Secretary of State

“to consult the devolved administrations in relation to regulations under clause 16 (1).”

In this morning’s useful meeting—I join others in thanking the Minister for hosting such a fascinating session—we touched briefly on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Would the Minister confirm that the devolved nations are being consulted on their involvement in their use of our registries, and maybe ours of theirs?

Amendments 125, 127 to 130 and 132 all relate to consultation when making regulations, including, but not limited to, the devolved Administrations, patient groups, various healthcare organisations and academics. Consultation is key to all this, with clinicians, who will give you one set of information, but even more so with patients, who will give you a different, richer, more detailed dataset.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 105, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, would mandate consultation with the devolved Administrations before making regulations under Clause 16. This question has been raised by a very large number of those who have contributed. Amendment 132, also tabled by the noble Baroness, would insert after Clause 41 a separate obligation to consult on regulations made under the Bill that relate to matters within devolved competence.

Both amendments are unnecessary. It goes without saying that we will consult the relevant Northern Ireland departments where it may be possible to make regulations jointly under Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill for the benefit of the whole of the UK. I reassure the noble Baronesses, Lady Jolly and Lady Masham, and all others who mentioned consultation with the devolved assemblies that we are in very regular contact. There are fortnightly four-nations calls. These include NHS Digital where necessary. We intend to maintain this level of engagement. It has proved constructive and has contributed enormously to our plans for broad consultation on the mechanics of the Bill.

While medical device regulation relates to reserved matters, the provision of healthcare services, including the healthcare data collected, is devolved. As the regulations about the establishment and operation of the information systems encompass both areas of responsibility, it is right and proper that the Secretary of State is required to consult the devolved Administrations before making regulations under Clause 16(1).

The noble Baroness’s amendment appears on the list before my own, but Amendment 126 in my name, which I will come to shortly, is appropriate for this situation. It makes it very clear that the devolved Administrations will be consulted on regulations to be made under Clause 16. This reflects that provisions in those regulations may relate to devolved as well as reserved matters.

Amendment 127 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, is unnecessary. My Amendment 126, which I will come on to shortly, would apply a statutory duty to carry out a public consultation precisely because we know how important it is for patients and other stakeholders to be involved. The intent of Amendment 127 is already achieved by Clause 41 and is further clarified by the government amendment.

Amendments 128 and 129, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, would commit the appropriate authority to consult all those listed before making regulations under the Bill. We all wish to ensure that a range of views are adequately captured. However, we do not wish to inadvertently rule out contributions from those accidentally not listed. Those listed in the amendments would not necessarily be directly affected by each regulation. For example, regulations relating to human medicines prescribing would not affect veterinary medicines. I reassure the noble Lord and the noble Baroness that the consultations will have depth and reach, and that medical research charities will be fully involved. Requiring consultation with all those listed would be unduly burdensome and seemingly add little value to the making of regulations.

On Amendment 130 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, I completely understand that there are perhaps some concerns with the extent of consultation, or, indeed, its duration, or that the Government might seek to consult on proposed regulations without sufficient notice to those wishing to comment. This is simply not the case, but limiting us in this way may hinder the delivery of important regulations coming into force. If the Bill were to be significantly delayed, it would mean that we could not make an efficient start on consulting stakeholders on key policy areas, such as on a future regulatory system for medical devices.

Whether consultation is conducted prior to the Bill achieving Royal Assent or afterwards, we will make it clear to stakeholders when the consultation processes will start and end. Consultations will be targeted, form part of a process of engagement and last for a proportionate amount of time. For my part, I cannot wait for the process to begin. It is very exciting.

I know that noble Lords want to know our plans for consultation, as do I, and when precisely that will begin. I reassure my noble friend Lady McIntosh that we will publish responses to consultation. We will follow the Cabinet Office guidance, which is extremely stringent. I am incredibly enthusiastic to reach that next step and to begin to make changes to the regulatory regime to deliver a comprehensive, stand-alone and first-class medical devices system, as well as to consult and have the benefit of informed views, like those of the noble Lords, Lord Kakkar and Lord Patel, among others, when we discussed provisional rapid licensing.

I want to make changes to the clinical trials regulations and to consult on how we can make improvements and update definitions. Also, of course, I want to bring in the medical devices information system regulations so that we can establish a world-leading medical devices safety regime. I indicated the intention to consult in the first quarter of 2021 on the innovative medicines fund. We intend to start public consultation on the medical devices information system in May 2021. We also hope to take forward the medical devices regulations consultation over the summer of 2021. There is obviously sequencing to do on all the other measures that we will want to bring in. I will update the House on our consultation plans in due course. The dates are dependent on getting the Bill done, of course.

As to Amendment 126 in my name, I heard the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, ask at Second Reading how Parliament could be consulted on regulatory changes. Others reflected on the importance of consulting patients on the regulatory changes that impacted or mattered to them. I know that there has been concern about whether the relationship to the pharmaceutical and medical device industries is such that they might be unduly weighted in consultation, but I assure noble Lords that that is not the case.

To provide reassurance, Amendment 126 changes the obligation in Clause 41 to public consultation. The effect of the amendment would not be to prevent the appropriate authority from inviting responses from certain stakeholders or groups as the authority might consider appropriate. Engagement and close working will continue, but Amendment 126 will ensure greater transparency and enable even more people to become involved in the consultation.

The duty to consult the devolved nations on Clause 16 has been the subject of ongoing conversations and correspondence between Ministers in the devolved nations and me. I spoke earlier about the nature of these regulations relating to both reserved and devolved matters. Specific considerations will need to be taken into account in relation to how the devolved healthcare systems function and we want to ensure that any information system that we create is as effective as it can be. The information system will provide an important tool for improving the safety of medical devices for patients throughout the four nations of the United Kingdom. It has always been our intention to consult fully the devolved Administrations on the development of the regulations. I am making this change to provide greater reassurance and confidence, both to the devolved nations and to Peers who have raised the significance of ensuring interoperability between any such information system and devolved healthcare systems.

The final change made to Clause 41 by Amendment 126 will mean that participants engaging with the consultation can understand how the considerations have been taken into account so far. This additional transparency will, I hope, provide noble Lords with assurances that we have taken the criticisms on board and have provided a method for Parliament, the public and stakeholders to know how our thinking progresses throughout the development of regulations made under the Bill.

The combination of these changes strengthens the consultation requirement in the Bill. I hope that, taken together with amendments that I have made elsewhere in the Bill, it goes some way to meeting your Lordships’ concerns and that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment. I commend my Amendment 126.

Department of Health and Social Care: Unpaid Advisers

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 17th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for highlighting three calls to suppliers. I should like to reassure him that those were absolutely exceptional times, when our supply chains had broken down and we were competing with other Governments for extremely scarce resources. I personally did not make three supplier calls; rather, I made 300. I put out literally hundreds of calls on behalf of the Government to try to find the medicines, supplies, diagnostics, PPE and all manner of medical requirements needed for this country. I could have done that only with the help of the networks, energy, skills and support of those who stepped forward to help us at our time of need. I repeat, I am extremely grateful for that support. It does not warrant a place on the front page of the Sunday Times but the lack of follow-up from that newspaper article speaks for itself.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we all wish to live in a time of transparent government. On 6 April, I understand that a Minister in the department had a phone call with a former Conservative Party chairman and an adviser who had not been publicly declared, as well with as a businessman who had donated a significant five-figure sum to the party and who was later awarded PPE contracts of more than £150 million. Does the Minister know if the contract was open to tender? Given the donation and the nature of future PPE contracts, why was that not considered to be an inappropriate call?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I take this opportunity to thank the very large number of Members of this House who contacted me during that period. My inbox was filled with thousands of emails every day, including emails from Lib Dem, Labour, Cross-Bench and Tory Peers, all of them seeking to help us during our time of need. I sought to reply to as many as I could, but I fear that I did not reply to enough and I did not mean any discourtesy. I spoke to a large number of those people, as my transparency register makes very clear. The telephone call on 6 April to which the noble Baroness has referred was not in any way inappropriate. I am extremely grateful to all those who stepped forward to help us when we needed it.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

I thank the Minister. I am going to address testing and tracing. He may not have answers but I should be grateful if he could write to me. There have been more than 10 million downloads of the NHS Covid-19 contact tracing app. There have also been many complaints of Bluetooth draining batteries. I second those. Will he confirm whether there is a solution in the pipeline for that issue? If people do as I do and just switch off Bluetooth, the system will not work. How many of these app users are active? If 10 million people are actively telling the world where they are and are checking in and out of where they have been, that is wonderful. But if they do not do so, it is not terribly helpful.

Critically, how many people have been triggered via the app to isolate? Of those, what proportion have had their isolation checked and by whom? Testing is quick and easy but the delay in response time is unhelpful. Swab processing time is not reducing due to the increase in the number of swabs, and labs are taking longer. Is there yet sufficient capacity, and how many staff are being trained weekly to take on the extra capacity? Can the Minister indicate the cost of taking a swab and getting the results back to the individual? Finally, will he confirm when he expects to move to lateral flow tests, which are much quicker and would transform the lives of the staff of care homes, their residents and visiting families?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful for the thoughtful questions of the noble Baronesses. I shall try to answer them as completely as I can but will write on any that I have omitted. As regards the questions about students, the programme of works with universities is extremely ambitious. I pay tribute to vice-chancellors and university administrations for working extremely closely with the Government, with the test and trace service and the DfE to mobilising the necessary arrangements in order to achieve the return home for Christmas.

This will include a large amount of mass testing on university campuses and in digs. There have already been successful pilots at Durham and De Montfort, using a variety of testing techniques and formats. Some tests have been done using telemedicine, some using traditional clipboard and picnic table techniques. There is further testing piloting to be done, but the indications are that this is proving an extremely successful model. It means that students can look forward to returning home for Christmas, confident that those who have the disease have been screened, and families can look forward to seeing students safely again.

On the testing of NHS workers, I agree with the noble Baroness that it is a priority. We are moving quickly on this. The purchase of tens of millions of lateral flow tests is a complete game-changer, and we remain committed to providing testing for the 1.3 million NHS workers. We aim to use lateral flow tests for some of these tests. NHS workers are themselves clinically trained, and it is appropriate for them to be able to use these tests. Therefore, we believe we can change the course of staff testing in the NHS environment using the new technology and a new approach to testing. I am extremely grateful to NHS colleagues for their participation in this important initiative.

Turning to DPHs, the noble Baroness is right that this is an important breakthrough. Again, the rollout of the lateral flow tests is important in that. She asked me about care homes, and she could have equally asked me about schools. I can deliver the same message on both: we have been sensitive to the appeals by DPHs for autonomy—for them to be able to make their own decisions, use their local intelligence and use their insight. That is why we have been reluctant to give any firm guidance on how they could or should use those tests. It is entirely up to DPHs to use the tests in the way they choose. But it is our expectation that some of those tests will be used in care homes, though there are other provisions for care home testing, and some will be used in schools, as well as for outbreak management and community testing.

The period for isolation is a subject under constant and rolling review by the CMO’s office and the policy team at DPH. I wish I could provide some kind of breakthrough—that the virus had in some way changed and was no longer infectious in people after a week or eight or nine days—but I am afraid I cannot provide that information. The frustrating thing about this virus is that it sits in the back of the throat or nose and remains infectious for an unfeasibly long time. That is why we are cautious about making dramatic changes in the isolation protocols.

What rapid testing provides is the opportunity to do frequent testing. The noble Baroness asked me about seven-day PCR tests; more likely and efficacious would be regular testing, every day or every other day, using the lateral flow tests, to do some form of test and release. We believe that avenue is more likely, and the CMO’s office is looking closely at that. It is entirely up to that office to make announcements on that score.

On adult social care, I reassure the noble Baroness that adult and child social care colleagues are fully involved in the preparations for a vaccine. She is right that social care provides its own set of challenges for the administration of the vaccine, but those are exactly the people we need to target with the vaccine. That is why they, particularly the elderly, are at the highest level of the JCVI’s prioritisation list. We are putting all our efforts into making sure that the vaccine delivery works for them.

The noble Baroness asked about ethnic minorities. May I put the question slightly differently? A number of difficult-to-reach groups have seen a high infection rate. It is a priority for us to make sure that the message on the vaccine breaks through any cultural, linguistic, demographic or other social barriers to get through to those groups who need it. They are not groups defined by race or the colour of their skin but by their proximity or otherwise to the normal course of government. We have learned through Covid that these groups are incredibly important from a public health point of view. From a values point of view, we owe it to them to do our best to reach them and we are putting the resources in place to do that. As for children, we have no current plans to vaccinate them. In terms of international partners, we are very focused on ensuring that all the intellectual property and manufacturing resources that we can possibly effect are put to work to get the vaccine into the arms of those around the world.

On cold storage, I reassure the noble Baroness that we have been on this for months. We have been aware of the demanding storage need of the Pfizer vaccine for a substantial amount of time and cold storage arrangements have been put in place. It is not necessary for that cold storage to be literally at the end of every street because the travel time for the vaccine is reasonably flexible. We have in place exactly what we need, not only for the Pfizer vaccine but for the Oxford vaccine and the others in the pipeline. JVT and Dr June Raine at the MHRA were crystal clear when they said that safety will not be compromised. I endorse their comments.

I will say a few words about our approach to managing messages to those who might feel anxious about the vaccine. This is not a moment for rebuttal or for attacking those who have questions about the vaccine, whatever those questions are and however far-fetched they might be. Our approach is to take all questions at face value, tackle them sincerely and approach them in an open-hearted way. By being defensive we play into the hands of those who have bad intentions, and by being aggressive we only amplify those causing trouble. Instead, we want to have an open dialogue with those who have concerns to emphasise the safety of the vaccine and, more generally, the normality of taking vaccines. It is with that kind of approach that we hope to deal with those who have concerns about taking vaccines.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, asked a number of questions about the app. I cannot give her precise numbers on absolutely everything she asked but I can reassure her on a couple of things. There have been 20 million downloads, not 10 million. Take-up of the app has been enormous and, week on week, we see a huge number of check-ins on the venue-based element of the app, which is a huge part of its effectiveness. It helps us enormously with contact tracing. As for Bluetooth and the battery, I am disappointed to hear that the noble Baroness has had trouble with her phone. On the whole, that is not the feedback we have had from users and the recent update has emphasised the low-energy aspects of the Bluetooth protocol that the app uses. We think it will improve the performance of the app and lessen its drain on the battery.

The noble Baroness asked about tests; I will answer broadly. The innovation that we have seen in diagnostics for Covid has been incredible. It has included far-fetched—to me at least—technologies such as mass spectrometry. Some innovations have used the plastic lateral flows, which, although low-tech in their appearance, use extremely advanced technologies and chemicals to achieve accuracy, speed and cost performance. Some, such as LAMP, have taken old technologies and repurposed them for a new use. It has been extremely exciting to see. It is my aspiration that we will see an inflection point in diagnostics in the UK. This will aid an overall strategic step towards early intervention and put diagnostics at the heart of our medical science. It has already played an important part for a long time, but this will put it centre stage. I pay tribute to the work of Professor Mike Richards, whose review of the future vision for diagnostics in the NHS provides us with a target to aim for as we expand and invest in our diagnostics around Covid.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Committee stage & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 11th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I will get to back to the noble Lord with the specific answer to that question, if I may.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I shall not detain the Committee for very long. I thank the Minister for his comments. I feel inclined at the moment not to withdraw my amendment, but I would like to read Hansard, consult and decide whether to return with these amendments, or something like them, on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Covid-19: Vaccine

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly]

To ask Her Majesty's Government, following the recent analysis of the effectiveness of the Pfizer and BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine, what arrangements they have put in place to distribute approved Covid-19 vaccines (1) in the United Kingdom, and (2) internationally; and who determines the protocol for priority of access to any such vaccines.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, the NHS is preparing to be ready to deploy a Covid-19 vaccine as soon as one is safe and effective. Distribution arrangements remain flexible and include the make-up of the workforce needed to rapidly deliver a vaccination programme, training requirements, consumables and supporting infrastructure. The UK continues to work through multilaterals, such as the G7 and the G20, and with the WHO to agree collaborative approaches to supporting global vaccine development and distribution.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

The Government anticipate that the vaccination programme will start with the most vulnerable and those living and working in care homes. Vaccination into muscle does not need to be administered by a clinician; any of us could be trained to do it. Which organisations are the Government working with to make this happen? Can the Minister confirm that there will be no need to take out contracts with the private sector, but that the Government will use the military, local resources—such as public health, fire and ambulance services—and trained volunteers?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is entirely right that the range of people who can administer this vaccine is extremely wide. The challenge of administering so many vaccines in such a short amount of time will indeed require the involvement of a large range of people. We are putting in the recruitment and training necessary for that to happen. I am particularly grateful to all healthcare workers, particularly those from professions such as the pharmacy industry, who are stepping forward to meet this challenge. We are not allergic, though, to using the private sector in this matter, and we will be explaining the detailed terms of our arrangements at a later date.

Covid-19: Transparency and Accuracy of Statistics

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Monday 9th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Royal Society for its involvement in much of the work that we are discussing; it is a key contributor to some of the scientific thinking and modelling. As for public support, I remind the noble Lord that there is enormous public support for the measures introduced by the Government: in fact, more people think that our measures have not gone far enough than support them.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the same level of regional and cluster detail is needed for the Covid-19 status of residents in care homes as for those in the NHS. When do we expect to have this level of detail for care homes? Can the Minister tell the House how many people are currently resident in English care homes with Covid-19 and what level of confidence the Government have in official statistics on that subject?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that, statistically, care homes present a unique challenge. There are more than 15,000 care homes, many of which are not plugged into day-to-day statistical canvassing and, therefore, knowing exactly what happens in every care home every day is a particularly large challenge. However, we have thrown an enormous amount of resources at that problem, and our understanding of the care home situation in relation to Covid is much better than it was. The precise statistics she asks for today are not at my fingertips, but I would be glad to write to her with a number.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Committee stage & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 4th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

I should apologise to noble Lords: my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones is unable to be part of today’s Committee, so I will be speaking on his behalf—at some length but without, I suspect, his bravura.

Amendment 30 seeks to tighten the provisions in Clause 3 to avoid the unintended consequences of data being used for purposes other than to ensure that medicines are safe. Amendment 31 also seeks to do this, by requiring a framework for data to be used as agreed in consultation with the pharmaceutical industry, and Amendment 33 places a duty on the Secretary of State to

“act with a view to”,

rather than

“have regard to the importance of”,

ensuring that information is retained securely when exercising powers.

There is no doubt that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones are travelling down the same road, and I have very similar concerns. That is why we signed Amendment 30, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his support for the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones.

As explained at Second Reading, there are grave concerns about the wording of Clause 3(1)(b), relating to the development of a UK system to prevent the supply of falsified medicines. The clause refers to

“the use, retention and disclosure, for any purpose to do with human medicines, of information collected”

by such a system. This is an attempt to unreasonably broaden the original data-collection provisions of the Falsified Medicines Directive after the transition period.

The background to the current legislation is very clear. By the early 2000s, pharmaceutical companies were concerned about falsified, counterfeit products entering the legitimate medicines supply chain—especially high-value items such as Viagra. At that time, this was the only real way to distribute such products at scale. Schemes involving pack serialisation were proposed to reduce the risk of reputational and trading losses from counterfeit and falsified medicines entering the supply chain, and to reduce the potential risk of harm to patients.

A stakeholder model was established which is governed by the main groups in the supply chain and funded mainly by manufacturers—branded, generic and parallel trade—with smaller contributions to costs from wholesalers and pharmacies. These proposals became the EU Falsified Medicines Directive 2011/62/EU. In the meantime, the issue of falsified medicines had moved largely to the internet, where they are sold from trading platforms and/or unlicensed pharmacies.

So why is data use so important? As the Company Chemists’ Association has pointed out, data is a very sensitive commercial currency. All parts of the medicines supply chain need access to broad patterns of medicines usage for the purpose of planning or adjusting manufacturing, marketing, prescribing, buying and stock control. But access to pack information—who is handling which packs—could highlight purchasing decisions, the margins being made and those trading for import/export purposes.

So the principle of “Whoever generates the data owns the data” was enshrined in Article 38 of the associated delegated regulation of 2016. As a result, general access to FMD data is restricted to pack information—name, batch, expiry, serial number—and active/inactive status, with some exceptions for investigating incidents and national competent authority use for reports, reimbursement, and pharmacovigilance and pharmacoepidemiology research.

The Department of Health and Social Care already has access to a very wide range of data on the sales of medicines, and their use in the UK, under the Health Service Products (Provision and Disclosure of Information) Regulations 2018. These require manufacturers, wholesalers and pharmacies to provide summaries of products sold and prices paid. Ministers can request more detailed information if required.

Given both this access and the known sensitivities around FMD data, it is unclear why the department has included the sweeping provision of Clause 3(1)(b) on the use, retention and disclosure for any purpose of data collected under a falsified medicines system, and why this has not been discussed with stakeholders in the existing Falsified Medicines Directive scheme.

The pharmacy community has concerns not just that the department might accidentally release commercially sensitive data—this is covered by Clause 3(3)—but that it might use such data to gain unfair advantage by abusing its monopoly position as the main purchaser of medicines in the UK. Pharmacies wish to see data use under any future system being part of an agreement that has been subject to discussion with stakeholders and approved by Parliament. My noble friend understands that the department has said that the details of any proposed use under a new falsified medicines system would be contained in a statutory instrument by the affirmative procedure.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, I understand that the intention of Amendment 30, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is to prevent the use of data for any purpose other than preventing the supply of falsified human medicines. The noble Baroness raises an important question. Let me reassure her that we have thought very carefully about these powers. There is an important precedent already for using the data held in the current EU Falsified Medicines Directive “safety features” system for wider purposes. For instance, as well as using the data to investigate instances of falsified medicines, data on the EU system can be used for the purposes of reimbursement, pharmacovigilance and pharmacoepidemiology. The effect of this amendment would be a step backwards on what any potential falsified medicines scheme introduced under Clause 3 could deliver.

We know from implementation of the EU system that the checks involved could generate a rich source of data, and that there may be circumstances where we would want to be able to use that data to support the safe and effective use of medicines. For example, information in a future falsified medicines scheme could be useful in the event of a product recall to help quickly identify individually affected packs. I recognise that information about the supply of medicines through the supply chain can be commercially sensitive—the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, made this point very well. That is why Clause 3 ensures that, in making regulations under this power, the appropriate authority must ensure that information is retained securely. Information will be subject to strict controls set out in regulations, including what purposes the data could be used for, who would have access to or use it, and under what conditions.

I turn to the noble Baroness’s second amendment in this group, Amendment 33. While I understand the desire of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, to ensure that we have robust requirements around the safeguarding of information, this amendment would cause difficulty for the appropriate authority making regulations under the provision in Clause 3. This is because it would require action to secure retention of data even where the regulations themselves may not concern data—for example, provisions related to who may set up the infrastructure.

Amendments 31 and 32, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, would operate together to place an obligation on the Secretary of State to seek to agree and lay a framework on the use of information collected for the purpose of preventing the supply of falsified medicines. This would be done within six months of the Act coming into force.

We can all agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others that close collaboration through consultation with stakeholders, including with pharmacists, is essential to getting something like this right, not least given the importance of data security. However, Amendments 31 and 32 would not create the right mechanism for providing this. I can reassure the noble Lord that we have planned fulsome engagement and consultation with a wide range of stakeholders. This can be achieved without this additional obligation, but I would be glad to commit to an engagement session with noble Lords and officials if noble Lords would find this helpful.

The Government have committed to exploring all options in regard to a falsified medicines scheme to ensure that patients continue to be protected from the public health threat posed by falsified medicines. As part of this, we will explore with stakeholders what information needs to be collected as part of any national scheme. Only once we have established how any scheme could work can we fully consider how the information that it collects could be used to deliver the most benefits for the UK and for patients. However, this amendment would force us to consult on an agreed framework outlining the use of information within six months of Royal Assent, without necessarily having the full picture of how a national scheme could work.

We also want to explore creative uses of information as long as they are for public interest purposes. Therefore, we do not want to constrain or limit options ahead of engagement with stakeholders.

I should make it very clear that the overarching principles of the Bill as set out in Clause 1 also apply to our powers here. The scope of the purposes mentioned is not unfettered. The appropriate authority must be satisfied that regulations dealing with anything under Clause 3—not just around how the information will be used—will promote the health and safety of the public. In making that assessment, the appropriate authority is required to have regard to the three considerations discussed previously in Committee.

I remind noble Lords that Amendment 126 in my name ensures that this will be a public consultation, while Amendment 131, also in my name, places an obligation on the Secretary of State to review regulatory changes made under Clause 1(1). The consultation will consider how the information collected as part of the scheme could be used, and any regulations providing for the use of information would be subject to parliamentary scrutiny under the affirmative procedure. In light of these reassurances, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, will feel able to withdraw her amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, will be content not to press his.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we support these amendments, which relate to the disapplication of regulatory provisions in an emergency. As the Bill stands, the Secretary of State may make regulations about these provisions. This can be subject either to

“conditions set out in the regulations”

or in

“a protocol published by the appropriate authority.”

As the protocol is not subject to parliamentary scrutiny, the amendment in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Patel, would remove this provision from the Bill so that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, said, conditions would have to be set by regulations alone.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the lockdown debate later this afternoon brings home the significance of an emergency like Covid. It requires swift, dramatic change to protect public health. Clauses 6 and 15 are essential. They would allow us to make provisions about the disapplication of a medicine or medical devices provision where there is a need to protect the public from a serious risk to health. We would need regulations to do this, because to act in breach of an otherwise applicable provision would be an offence.

Medicines is a highly regulated area. Regulations apply from development of medicines to delivery, right the way down to the pharmacy. It is a complex and overlapping system, designed to protect the end-user, the patient. But there are times when we need to switch off a circuit of the system to respond to an emergency. This is most vividly apparent when we speak of a Covid vaccine. This is end to end, from port arrival, to the logistics of its delivery, to who may administer it. We need to be able to pick this circuit out of the whole and isolate it. Otherwise, to disapply regulation without being highly specific is to disapply regulation not just from the vaccine but from other medicines as well.

This is the point of conditions that go alongside the disapplication. Where we know what the conditions will be, of course it should be in the regulations. But often we cannot know what the specific conditions are. That is where the protocol comes in that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, with her Amendments 46, 47, 93 and 94, would like to remove. I acknowledge that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee objected to the use of a protocol. I note that its condemnation was not limited to this Bill but was a broader point about other legislation as well. I hope that I can explain why such a protocol is necessary here.

Protocols are a last resort in any emergency that provides critical flexibility in highly regulated areas. They would be time limited to provide flexibility and administrative detail, tailored to the professional audience that requires it and in language which they are familiar with. A protocol will be used only where it is not be possible to determine all the necessary conditions of disapplication at the pace needed to deal with an urgent threat. The protocol allows for the finer details to be sketched in, while giving Parliament the structure of the regulations to consider. We can debate the principle of disapplying certain provisions of the regulations, without always having the specific names of medicines or vaccines in front of us.

There are existing provisions in the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 that allow for the disapplication of regulatory provisions on how prescription, pharmacy and over-the-counter medicines may lawfully be supplied. These are limited to circumstances in the event or anticipation of a pandemic disease. This formed part of the response to the swine flu pandemic in 2009. Six protocols were issued in relation to specific antivirals for the treatment of swine flu, enabling them to be supplied by authorised staff who would not normally be able to supply prescription-only medicines. This involved separate protocols for different strengths of oseltamivir, a demonstration of just how specific we would expect the protocols to be.

We have made an SI this month introducing provision for the use of protocols in relation to coronavirus and influenza vaccinations. That SI seeks to anticipate the certain flexibilities that might be needed but it is not possible to cover all eventualities. It anticipates the need for rapid supply and the potential mass administration of medicines, since the anticipated vaccine may be delivered by injection.

However, until we are presented with a vaccine, we cannot know how many injections are required, for example. That is a finer point of detail that has implications for the scale of operation required. The SI makes clear that the disapplication of existing regulatory provisions about supply and administration of medicines will be subject to conditions set out in the protocol. These conditions of disapplication will include specifics around the class of persons permitted to administer the vaccines, and the protocol would specify the process by which a person in that class is designated as a person authorised to do so. It will provide for supervision and recording requirements that must be met when the vaccine is administered. These requirements will change depending on the necessities of the specific vaccine. Parliament can debate the regulation, but until we know the detail of that vaccine, we simply cannot establish how this operation will run.

The emergency powers allow us to go broader in terms of disapplications than what is currently available, a reflection of the type of emergency we face. In the illustrative SI published on introduction we have provided some clarity on our intent. It gives an example of what might be needed to ensure the disapplication could be relied upon in response to other circumstances, including a spread of toxins, pathogenic agents, and so on, that give rise to the risk of serious harm to health. This too would operate alongside a protocol.

Amendments 93 and 97 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, relate to emergencies involving medical devices. Provisions already exist in the Medical Devices Regulations 2002. These provisions allow particular devices to be put into service without being subject to CE marking, following a duly justified request if the Secretary of State considers this to be in the interests of the protection of health.

The ventilator challenge allowed us to fulfil the clinical need for ventilators through a combination of CE-marked devices, and devices which were granted an exemption from the requirement. They were required to conform to bespoke technical specifications as a condition of the exemption being granted, and the technical specifications evolved as they needed to. That ensured that the only devices in service without a CE mark were those that met the highest possible standards.

Online publication will also support dissemination to the required audience, to whom it will be targeted, such as operators in the supply chain, enabling conditions to be quickly understood by those who must use them, referring to concepts, processes and so on that they are familiar with from their field.

Protocols are a last-resort power. Where we can anticipate what the conditions of disapplication will be, we will put these into regulations, but I cannot say now how many injections will be required for a Covid vaccine or how many staff will be needed to deliver it. Parliament has our intent, our plans and our proactive preparations now, but not technical specifications—nor do we. I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and her team for all they do to hold us to account. It is right that they look at how we can write good legislation, although we need legislation that allows for practicality in a crisis. Therefore, I hope I have provided enough assurances for her to feel able to withdraw her amendment.

Social Care

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 28th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise the power of the CQC’s comments, and its report is indeed powerful. However, I have to be realistic. We are in the midst of a Covid winter, when there are enormous challenges in keeping the show on the road. We have an infection control fund of £600 million invested in social care, which demonstrates both the commitment of the Government to supporting social care and the sheer scale of ensuring that those in social care through this winter are protected from Covid and other influenzas. It just would not be right to launch an important and industry-changing reform process when the focus of everyone in social care is the protection of the vulnerable and our loved ones.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, is absolutely right to ask this Question on an issue that Covid has highlighted as needing urgent and very long-overdue reform. I am pleased that the Government have plans to work on a cross-party basis to sort out this pressing issue. When does the Minister expect those talks to begin?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

Talks are happening in the background in many ways. I cannot give the noble Baroness a precise date, because our focus is very much on managing Covid and learning its lessons, including from the CQC report that the noble Baroness rightly pointed out. But this is a massive priority both for the Government and for opposition parties, and I can reassure the noble Baroness that it will be taken on board at the soonest possible moment.

Covid-19: Test Results

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 27th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I am not sure that I can answer the false premise. Actually, test and trace has enormous achievements—the isolation of 1 million people who would potentially have spread the disease is the most glaringly obvious—but we are here to talk about turnaround times and there, I completely accept that the current performance is not where it should be. I have sought to explain the reasons for that, and the enormous increase in capacity in the last 60 days. I have also sought to explain the measures we are putting in place to mitigate that. I am confident that those measures will be successful, and I am happy to report back to the House on them

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, South West Water and Plymouth City Council have been co-operating in the testing of wastewater across the city to determine the strength and location of Covid outbreaks. What guidance has Public Health England given to local authorities on this, and what analysis has it done on this sort of testing?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right to cite the use of wastewater analysis. The innovations and partnerships team at test and trace has a programme to look at precisely that method. We are particularly interested in using targeted wastewater analysis at schools and in social care in order to promptly identify the presence of the disease. We are looking in particular at technologies that have already been trialled in Italy. The trials are extremely promising, but I would be happy to make that connection between South West Water and the relevant team so that their knowledge is usefully used.

Covid-19: South Yorkshire

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Thursday 22nd October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

First, I am glad to say that we have struck a financial arrangement with the Mayor of Manchester, and one of the valuable points that I think the noble Lord is alluding to is that that agreement is fair to all the other regions where we have struck agreements. It is not possible to do more generous agreements with one region over another simply because of the hard bargaining of one mayor over another. I pay tribute to those in Sheffield and South Yorkshire for the way in which they have gone about their negotiations and the implementation of the new tiering system in South Yorkshire.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, as was shown in Manchester, the Government can impose tier 3 on an area where an agreement cannot be reached. Can the Minister inform the House if discussions with local leaders are now about not whether the area will be placed in tier 3 for the good of the population’s well- being but the financial package?

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 19th October 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

It was almost inevitable, looking at the amendments that were coming up and knowing the people who would be discussing them in Committee, that this was going to be one of the most interesting debates. It has been fascinating and well informed. The amendments relate to our future relationship with the EMA and other international organisations after Brexit. My Amendment 125 in this group is on future regulatory alignment; I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Sheehan for her contribution.

The Government have not been forthcoming on whether they will pursue regulatory alignment and, more importantly, what the implications of not doing so would be. I would be grateful if the Minister clarified that second point. Our clinical trials are hugely important and widely respected. The clinical trials information system is critically important; the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, made that vital point. What aspect of the role of the EMA are we trying to replace? It has four parts: to facilitate development and access to medicines; to evaluate applications for marketing authorisations; to monitor the safety of medicines across their life cycle; and to provide information to healthcare professionals and patients. We need urgent clarification on how the future information system will work, who will host it, how it will be staffed and how we will share our research.

As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, said, we do not have a large enough population for significant research without partners. Are we clear that we could work with the FDA in the US—or, indeed, with the TGA in Australia? Would that give us a sufficient body of people from which to take on our research? Perhaps. Are there any moves to seek full membership of the International Council for Harmonisation of Technical Requirements for Pharmaceuticals for Human Use? I am sure that the Minister will have the answers but the regulations must have regard to the desirability of alignment, somehow or other, with the rest of the world. We cannot work as a small unit—perfectly formed, maybe, but we are small compared with the US, Europe and other groupings.

How is this going to be measured and monitored? The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, spoke about the fast-track licensing of medicines and devices. The point he made so clearly is that public safety has to be paramount so we cannot rush this sort of thing. We have to get it right; if people have to wait, so be it. It has been interesting to hear the reflections of the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, because he was sitting in the hot seat of the department. I wonder whether he is glad that he is not there now.

The other interesting amendment concerns the definition of attractiveness, which included collaboration with the EMA. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, attempted a definition. I am sure that if we were all given a piece of paper and asked to write down our definition of attractiveness, there would probably be as many answers as there are people in the debate today. I would like a definition from the Minister: how is this to be measured and by which body?

Without a doubt, under the provisions of Amendment 34, regulations must be made, while under Amendments 35 and 36, they should correspond with the EU clinical trials regulations. Amendment 38 provides that we must continue our collaboration with the EU in whatever form we can manage between us. We also need to look hard at clinical trials portals, not only with the EU but with our other partners in future.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, as the Minister for Innovation, I am very keen on the UK’s continued leadership in this area; I have made it something of a personal cause. I am very proud of the fact that the MHRA approves around 950 medicinal trials a year, over half of which are multinational.

We know that once an early phase trial is established in this country, the industry is more likely to keep its later phase multi-country trials here. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others who have questioned this point, that I can confirm that the purpose of the measures in this Bill are absolutely to build on our established strengths so that the UK has the opportunity to anchor international drug development in this country and grow that capability. I am committed to international standards, international partnerships and multi-country clinical trials. It is of course important that we work with our international partners both within the EU and globally to the benefit of patients. I assure noble Lords emphatically that we are committed to international co-operation.

However, I do not agree that our future relationships will be furthered by mandating the consideration of alignment with EU regulations and the European Medicines Agency. The UK has a long track record of jointly tackling global challenges with strong international links already in place between research and innovation communities. The UK works closely with many other regulators; those relationships are underpinned by many shared international standards. The EU bases its regulations on exactly those standards, as do we, and we will continue to do this going forward.

As a number of noble Lords have noted, we have the opportunity to create a better regulatory framework. The feedback from the industry is that an agile, proportionate UK system with familiar data submission requirements would increase the UK’s attractiveness as a place to conduct multinational studies, even if we are operating outside the EU’s network. My noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy’s quote from the ABPI made this point. The powers in the Bill as it stands will allow us to develop exactly that kind of system.

Progress is already happening. The MHRA and the Health Research Authority are already taking steps to streamline the approvals process for UK clinical trials and are currently piloting a new process that has been shown to reduce overall approval times by more than 30%. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, that this change does not rule out co-operation. Data generated in a UK clinical trial will continue to be admissible to support regulatory activity in the EU—and, indeed, globally. We can also look at how we can go further in making clinical trials and their results transparent and visible to the public. Co-operation does not require alignment.

Amendment 3 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, also suggests considering alignment with EU licensing processes. In the short term, the MHRA has already taken steps to recognise for two years future EMA decisions for medicine licences approved through the centralised authorisation procedure from January 2021. In the long term, there are opportunities to establish new UK routes to market, such as a new expedited pathway for innovative products, and to establish shorter assessment timeframes.

We have the ability to make corresponding or similar provisions to the EU CTR, but Amendment 38 would oblige us to align. Amendment 35, in the name of my noble friend Lord Lansley, does something similar. My noble friend makes the point that we have the opportunity to do better than the EU CTR, and that is very much our intention. That regulation replaces current separate regulatory authority and ethics approvals with a single national decision for a trial. The UK could adopt a similar methodology and associated data requirements for approvals, but in a much quicker timeframe. We have already introduced the combined ways for a working pilot to streamline approvals by the MHRA and ethics committees, and industry has told us that our scheme is one of the most appealing among the various pilot schemes in the EU, leading to a reported 30% reduction in timelines. The UK may wish to go further and develop our existing national system to further adapt requirements according to risk so as to reduce unnecessary burdens, such as academic trials involving a marketed product already in common usage.

In his Amendment 49, the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, suggests that there would be benefits in adopting certain definitions in the EU CTR. These include the EU’s revised definition of a clinical trial and co-sponsorship set out in the EU clinical trials regulations. Under the EU CTR, this new definition of clinical trials is an attempt to avoid current variation in interpretations in different member states. Whether this will have the intended effect remains to be seen. EU legislation already includes a definition of a clinical trial, and the MHRA offers trial sponsors free advice on whether their study meets that definition, to ensure a consistent interpretation. If we wished to amend our definition of a clinical trial corresponding to that in the EU CTR, the Bill as drafted would enable that.

My noble friend Lord Lansley is right that the EU CTR introduces a single submission portal and co-assessment model, but I confirm that member states involved still have to individually authorise the trial, and therefore one or more member states could refuse authorisation. The portal is an IT system, the method of delivery. This does not mean centralised EU approval of a trial. Where a member state has national restrictions that require separate approvals outside the scope of the EU CTR, the sponsor would still have to seek the approval separately of the individual member state, in addition to the processes for seeking authorisation for the trial through the EU portal under the EU CTR. Industry has told us that if the UK has a rapid approval system, the lack of access to the EU portal is not a particular issue.

Amendment 52 introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, suggests provision to develop a clinical trials portal that aligns with the European Medicines Agency for medicines for rare diseases. The EMA’s IT system does not address complex trial designs, such as umbrella, basket and platform trials that involve the use of master protocols. These are the very trial designs that have delivered the UK’s successes in Covid-19 research. On the EU portal, it is also extremely unlikely that the EU would agree to UK involvement, even if one were to request it, given that it is for EU member states and EEA countries. There are many other reasons why the UK is such an attractive place to run global rare disease trials: our world-class research infrastructure and centres for excellence, and so on and so forth.

Covid-19: NHS Long-term Plan

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 15th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

We do not just stand and praise. We are recruiting a huge number of new staff—50,000 more nurses and more GPs—and we invest in them through our people plan.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, the long-term plan cannot be delivered without effective community nursing support. Community nurses get people out of hospital and prevent others from being admitted. Currently, the service is short of several thousand nurses. What changes does the Minister expect to be made to get these nurses recruited, trained and operational?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising the importance of community nursing, and all community-based healthcare, including community diagnostic hubs. The interest in nurse recruitment has risen dramatically—by 138% in recent months—partly because of our massive advertising campaign and the renewed focus of NHS trusts in community nursing, which will be matched by opportunities to provide training for those who step forward for jobs.

Covid-19: Rise of Positive Tests

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 9th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the quarantine arrangements we have put in place are essential for containing the spread of the disease. We completely sympathise with parents who have found themselves caught overseas. However, we implore them to abide by the quarantine arrangements and return their children to school once the 14-day quarantine has passed.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, when Covid-19 first struck, care homes were almost forgotten. Will the Minister explain to the House what is the recommended Covid-19 testing regime for residents, visitors and staff in care homes, and what organisation monitors the tests in those local care settings?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

Testing arrangements for care homes have, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, alluded to, risen dramatically. Testing is done in a large variety of ways. For large care homes, mobile testing facilities are put in place; for care staff, facilities at local NHS hospitals are in place; and we invite visitors to have tests in advance of visiting their loved ones. This is all overseen by the NHS Test and Trace programme, and the CQC remains the auditor of the care sector.

Covid-19: Local Restrictions

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Thursday 3rd September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, we are working extremely hard to create confidence in the Test and Trace system and in the effectiveness of our two-tier system of hands, face and space combined with Test and Trace. We are appealing to the country to take necessary precautions but within those precautions to go about everyday life.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, in the pandemic, I fear that some sectors of the public are losing confidence in politicians. Scientists, on the other hand, are seen as independent and trusted. Surely, advice for politicians from scientists should be published in the interests of openness and transparency. Does the Minister agree?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I completely agree with the noble Baroness. The collapse in confidence in politicians is nothing new, I am afraid. I can only pay tribute to British scientists, who have been extraordinary in terms not only of the integrity of their work but its pioneering nature. In many fields, Britain has led the world in the innovative and brave science that we have pioneered.

Covid-19: Response

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Monday 27th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

My Lords, local authorities have had daily Covid-19 containment dashboards, which include 111, 119, online triage information and positive case information at UTLA and LSOA levels, for more than two weeks. Data for directors of public health who have signed the data-sharing agreement requires data-sharing agreements as personally identifiable information, and is mostly for their teams. That data includes much more granular data, including sex, age, postcode, ethnicity, occupation, test date, pillar and test location type. This question of data is one that concerns us enormously. We have moved a phenomenal amount in recent weeks, and it is my genuine belief that those in local authorities, directors of public of health and local infection teams have all the data that they need to do the job.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, social care has barely been mentioned in the last three Statements. Could the Minister clarify, in the event of a second wave of coronavirus, who in the Department of Health and Social Care is now leading on preparations with the care sector, and who from the care sector is leading in those discussions? How frequently do they meet?

[Lord Bethell [V]]

My Lords, I pay tribute to my colleague Helen Whately, the Minister for Social Care. She has worked incredibly hard and tirelessly on this area, which is her ultimate responsibility. There is a social care team which handles those negotiations, and I thank all those in the social care industry who are engaged. The social care industry is highly fragmented so engaging with the entire industry is a massive challenge. That is why we have put in place new structures, new dialogues, new guidelines and new ways of working to ensure that we are match-fit for the winter.

Pharmacies

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Monday 20th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The noble Baroness is entirely right. Although the vast majority of people live within a 20-minute walk of a pharmacy, many people face issues with location. That is why we will continue to maintain the good level of access that we have through the pharmacy access scheme, which provides additional financial support to pharmacies in areas where there are fewer pharmacies. Our commitment remains fully in place.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, clinical commissioning groups can commission local pharmacies to carry out tests on their patients, such as for blood pressure or atrial fibrillation. This would relieve local GP practices. How widespread is the adoption of this way of using pharmacies and what is being done to increase its uptake by clinical commissioning groups?

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The noble Baroness is right that pharmacies can play an enhanced role, particularly in providing the kinds of services that mean that people do not have to visit their GP. If we have learned one thing from Covid-19, it is that GP surgeries can be a source of infection and that GPs can sometimes be much more impactful working away from home. That is why we support exactly the kind of initiative that the noble Baroness outlines.

Independent Medicines and Medical Devices Safety Review

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 15th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is right: we do not listen to our women clearly enough. The medical health of women is more complicated than the medical health of men, and that point has been overlooked for too long. We are working hard to bring this into the education of young medics and to update the attitudes, procedures and knowledge of those who are already in the profession.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, recognised the importance of regulation in her excellent report. Our regulation system is in a transitional stage. Regarding the European Medicines Agency and the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, the text of the political declaration accompanying the withdrawal agreement stated only that the UK and EU will “explore” the possibility of co-operation. Can the Minister confirm what exploratory talks have been made to ensure that the EMA and MHRA remain strong and convergent post Brexit, and that the MHRA is adequately staffed?

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is right that regulation is important, but so is culture. I emphasise the importance placed by the Cumberlege report on a change in attitude in the healthcare service as much as on a change in regulation. I cannot guarantee that the EMA and the MHRA will be aligned on regulation in all matters, but I can guarantee that the MHRA will be given the resources it needs to do the job properly.

Medical Teaching and Learning: Ethnic Diversity

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 14th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, the recruitment of 50,000 new nurses, more GPs and new trainees into our medical colleges is being done in a fresh and, importantly, exciting new way, with a much greater focus in the marketing and advertising on attracting those from BME communities. This recruitment programme will, I hope, present a little bit of an inflection point in our approach to recruitment.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Medical Schools Council is steered by an executive committee of 42, which is elected from its membership. Of these, only four are of an ethnic minority background and 11 are women. Apart from encouragement, can the Minister tell the House what the Government are doing to ensure that, across medical and other health professional training, there is proportional representation of both ethnic and gender minority teachers?

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is right; the representation of BAME communities at the higher echelons of the medical establishment is not good enough. In too many areas, the representation is not fair and does not reflect the much higher proportion of BME workers at other levels of the health service. We are working hard on a variety of agendas: the People Plan, which I have already mentioned, and the NHS workforce race equality standard. These measures are taken seriously and we are working hard to change the balance of representation.

Covid-19: Mental Health Services

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Thursday 2nd July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The noble Baroness is likely correct that the epidemic has had a particular effect on children and young people. The evidence on this is not crystal clear, but that is the strong instinct of all those in the field. I personally welcome the reopening of schools, which will have a particularly beneficial effect on those children who at present are stuck at home and do not have the support of the school system. Mental health services for young people are part of our long-term plan, with the additional £2.3 billion of spending on mental health. Our ambitions in that area remain enormous.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, the Mental Health Act is no longer fit for purpose. With outdated legislation, both children and adults are at risk while either at home or in a care setting. In the aftermath of the Covid epidemic, there is no time for delay. When should we expect a Bill here in Parliament? If that is not in the Minister’s brief today, would he write to me?

[Lord Bethell [V]]

My Lords, we remain committed to publishing a White Paper that will set out the Government’s response to Sir Simon Wessely’s independent review of the Mental Health Act 1983 and pave the way for reform of that Act. We will publish it as soon as possible. The Covid epidemic does nothing but incentivise us to move as quickly as possible on this.

Nurses: Recruitment

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Thursday 18th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

My Lords, the Covid epidemic has thrown a spotlight on the essential role of carers, who have clearly played an enormous role in looking after those who are vulnerable. I completely support the sentiments of the noble Baroness that we should do more to help carers in their professional development so that they can convert to different secondary careers. I would be happy to look at any suggestions she has for ways in which we can do that better.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

Not for a long time have nurses had such a high national profile. The career options are many and now many more men are nurses too. Will the Minister explain to the House what careers material is available to schools, what opportunities there are for potential nurses to see what the role entails, and what efforts are being made to encourage young men?

[Lord Bethell [V]]

My Lords, we have backed an enormous marketing campaign called “We are the NHS”, which throws a huge spotlight on the role of nurses of all genders, backgrounds and professional focus. That campaign includes a strong schools element. It seeks to attract a broad range of backgrounds of people who might think of applying to the nursing profession.

Covid-19: Cancelled Medical Operations

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 10th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The noble Baroness has asked for a very specific figure, which I am afraid I do not have to hand. However, I can assure her that the private healthcare contract has provided us with incredibly valuable surge capacity and we will be looking at how to use that kind of capacity to protect the NHS from a potential surge in the wintertime.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, can the Government guarantee that there are safe spaces for all cancer services and ensure that these spaces are Covid-protected? Further, will the Minister update the House on testing numbers and the number and frequency of tests in hospitals and in cancer hubs in England? I understand that he may not have all the figures to hand, but I would be grateful if he could write to me and put a copy of the letter in the Library.

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, is right to emphasise the importance of safe spaces. Cancer surgery requires a completely hygienic environment for those who have immune challenges. Safe spaces are found for all those who need to have cancer practices. They may not be in absolutely every hospital, but if one hospital cannot make that kind of offer, an adjacent or nearby hospital will be found to provide the kind of safe spaces that are needed to carry out the procedures she described.

Exercise Cygnus

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 9th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

My Lords, it is necessary for the preparations for such civil emergencies to be made in a confidential fashion so that the unthinkable can be thought and plans can be made in a trusted and benign environment. Publication of these reports is not in the national interest and we do not have plans to publish them in the future.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, in the Cygnus report, preparedness, response, plans and capability were found lacking. Local capacity would be outstripped in the areas of excess deaths, social care and the NHS. What findings from the Cygnus report were incorporated into the work for the current pandemic?

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The noble Baroness is in danger of misrepresenting the situation. The whole point of running a trial such as operation Cygnus is to probe the system and to find weaknesses. That it identified areas for improvement is entirely appropriate and is exactly why we run such projects. As I have explained, the exercise identified key areas where developments were made, and those developments helped us in our preparations for Covid.

Hospitals: Patient Safety

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Thursday 21st May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness speaks about infection control measures regularly undertaken by trusts. Ambulances frequently take patients not to precisely the nearest hospital but to the one best suited to treating the patient. These infection control measures have been extremely effective and will continue for the foreseeable future.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, NHS Providers has concerns about the Government’s testing strategy for Covid-19. Will the Minister tell the House when every patient and health and care staff member with suspected Covid-19 symptoms who needs a test will consistently be able to get one within an appropriate turnaround time? When will the updated strategy be published?

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, every member of the NHS or social care employee can currently get a test when they present symptoms. They can do that through their employer, directly through the online service or a hotline. The turnaround time in 95% of tests is within 48 hours.

Covid-19: Response

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 19th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend’s commitment to freedom of travel—and he will remember my father’s own commitment to it. The sad truth, however, is that it is very difficult to prove a negative: to prove that someone does not have the disease or that they have not recently become infected and have the disease in a latent way or that they are young, fit and well. The restrictions are in place for those reasons. I advise my noble friend that we are working on finding a solution, but none is immediately available.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, with many GP appointments now held online, the public are going to their local pharmacies for advice as never before. Pharmacies have received from the department little or no support with reconfiguring their premises, many have had no support sourcing PPE and staff are not automatically considered for routine testing. Have the Government forgotten the pharmacy profession? Will additional support be made available to our high street pharmacies as they continue to serve patients throughout the Covid-19 pandemic?

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is entirely right: this epidemic has demonstrated, if it needed to be demonstrated at all, the key role that pharmacists play in the health of the nation. I pay tribute to the role of pharmacists in providing support and filling the gap after GPs’ surgeries have closed. I reject, however, the idea that they have had no support. PPE has been provided, any pharmacist is prioritised as a key worker, and we will continue to offer support and to help grow this valuable sector.

Covid-19: Vulnerable Populations

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 12th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

I reassure the House that deaths in care homes have always been part of the official figures. It is a very sad affair, and it shows how the disease attacks those who are most vulnerable. The arrangements for PPE in social care settings have improved dramatically, and we have put in place measures so that any care home can make its own application for PPE as it needs it.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

Will the Minister tell the House what advice or support local authorities have been advised to give to the more than 100,000 vulnerable adults aged over 70 caring for their adult children who have a learning disability?

[Lord Bethell]

The advice given to local authorities is spelled out in guidelines. Those who are vulnerable are advised to avoid social contact. Where necessary, those whom they live with, including any children they have with learning disabilities, should also avoid the same social contact.

Coronavirus

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Bethell

Thursday 12th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The right reverend Prelate is entirely right to raise the question of prisons. Prisons provide an enormous challenge when it comes to the virus. The idea of prisoners living in prisons while the virus passes through such a tight-knit community concerns us enormously. I reassure him that the Ministry of Justice is looking into this carefully. It is using the experience in Italy and in China to understand how to provide for this in a humane and responsible way that preserves the security of our communities. It will publish advice on that shortly.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my interest in the register. I was pleased to hear that the Secretary of State had included social care in the Statement. Could the Minister clarify what support will be offered to providers of social care to vulnerable adults with a learning disability?

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is entirely right to ask about a specific group. As yet, I do not have a clear answer on the exact demographic that she describes, but I reassure her that our understanding is that this will hit hardest the most vulnerable in our society. The entire focus of our provisions is therefore to make sure that the most vulnerable are looked after best.