Medicines and Medical Devices Bill Debate
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Baroness Jolly
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Medicines and Medical Devices Bill
Baroness Jolly ExcerptsThursday 14th January 2021
(3 years, 3 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Medicines and Medical Devices Act 2021 View all Medicines and Medical Devices Act 2021 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 154-II(Rev) Revised second marshalled list for Report - (12 Jan 2021)
Lord Naseby (Con) [V]
My Lords, I declare an interest in that I am married to a retired general practitioner.
I congratulate the noble Baroness on her proposed new clause. Whether the detail is correct is another matter, but the principle that she is promoting is absolutely right. I make my observations as someone who, before he came into politics, was a senior director in the fifth-largest advertising agency in the world. I was actually handling the UK Government’s COI account—that is, the general one for specific purposes.
I have four observations. First, all misinformation must be refuted immediately, wherever it occurs—whether it is in the main media or other media. That is not just social media; it includes radio, TV, print, posters, et cetera. Secondly, every medical professional body must make it unequivocally clear that disinformation must be refuted. Thirdly, I suggest that all medical outlets should provide a clear statement, in poster format, for hospitals, surgeries, clinics and pharmacies. Fourthly, consideration should be given to how best to communicate with schools, universities and colleges.
In conclusion, we must all remember the terrible harm that was done to the MMR—measles, mumps and rubella—programme, largely by one pioneering rogue doctor. Against that background, I plead with the Minister to ensure that we have a robust new clause and a plan, worked on now so that it can be communicated instantly, if possible.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
My Lords, I support this amendment to require
“the Secretary of State to publish a strategy for tackling antivaccination disinformation within one month of the Bill passing.”
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has picked a fascinating, current topic, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, posed some pointed questions about the quality and effectiveness of the messages. I look forward to the Minister summing up on these points.
Misinformation is not new. I remember websites being used many years ago to persuade parents to ensure that their children had their childhood vaccinations at the appropriate time, and it is paramount that the Government take a robust stance against anti-vaccination disinformation. Research from Oxford University suggests that 12% of the UK population is “strongly hesitant” about taking the vaccine, with a further 16% unsure. Together, that makes 28%, a very significant proportion of the population—over a quarter. We are putting all our efforts into stopping the spread of this virus. This means that if the 28% avoid vaccination, they will run the real and severe risk of catching the virus; not only that, we will run the risk of catching it from them, so undoing all the benefits of the programme.
Lord Naseby (Con) [V]
It is a pleasure to follow my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, who has gone into great detail on these amendments. As far as I can see, these are mainly government amendments, plus some from other parties, and they are all broadly to be welcomed. The question I ask myself is: where are the boundaries to be set?
Very helpfully, the Minister, in his opening statement, explained in some detail the extent of information-sharing outside the UK and gave the example of the safety of medical devices. Having listened to my noble friend and the others who have contributed, I am still not quite sure about Amendments 18 and 20. I can see where they are coming from and can understand what is behind them but on this occasion I will have to listen to the Minister. These are sensitive areas and certainly we in the upper House should listen. I am also not entirely clear from the Minister’s statement at the beginning what the implications of Amendment 22 are. There has already been a good deal of coverage and I will not add to it further.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
These amendments relate to the use of data and information sharing. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, my noble friend Lord Clement- Jones and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, have put their names to some of them. The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, outlined clearly in the context of trade and health the power and value of data. Data is a hugely rich source for research but also a hugely valuable commodity, so we need safeguards.
Concern was raised in Committee about the level of protection in the Bill for patient information, as regulations are able to make provision about the disclosure of such information. I am grateful to the Minister for being so willing to look at this again.
The Government have responded in two main ways: with the introduction of a definition of “relevant person”, thereby narrowing the definition of whom data can be shared with, and by defining what is meant by patient information. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, explained, Amendment 24 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, strengthens the definition of patient information to protect information that could identify a patient, rather than just information that does.
Amendments 18, 36 and 57, led by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and supported by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones and others, would allow a relevant authority to disclose information to a person outside the UK only where required for the purpose of giving effect to an international agreement or an arrangement concerning the regulation of human medicine, provided it was within the public interest so to do. Those three amendments all pass the test put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, concerning public good.
Amendment 20, from my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, would take the Government’s amendment on patient consent further by ensuring that consent given in relation to identifiable information was informed consent. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, has just raised the issue. We should not need this. Informed consent should be the default but, as it clearly is not, I support my noble friend’s Amendment 20.
Similarly, Amendment 21, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, would ensure that patient information could be shared by an appropriate authority only if the individual to whom it related had given their explicit consent.
These amendments strengthen the Bill and therefore patient outcomes. I will listen to the Minister to see what plans the Government have to satisfy noble Lords on this group.
Baroness Thornton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I will speak to the amendments in my name, and give notice that I will test the opinion of the House on Amendment 18, along with Amendments 36 and 57, all of which are supported by the noble Lords, Lord Patel, Lord Freyberg and Lord Clement-Jones. This is unless—of course, I always live in hope—they are agreed to by the Minister.
Turning to the other amendments in my name in this group, I just want to put on record how grateful we are on our Benches for the way that the Minister and the Bill team have worked on these important issues, and how much we support the amendments that he has tabled. We do not see these amendments as in opposition; we see them as amplification and clarification.
Amendment 24 is a probing test for whether aggregate data could identify individuals through de-identification or de-anonymisation practices. The Government’s amendments define patient information as data that
“identifies the individual or enables the individual to be identified (whether by itself or in combination with other information)”.
This represents a welcome tightening up of the definition to include scenarios where contextual information might allow de-identified data to become identifiable. This is very important given that aggregate data can reveal patterns which allow for reidentification, especially for small patient clusters as in rare diseases and conditions. Given the rapid development of sophisticated technology, my Amendment 24 probes the test for whether anonymised aggregate data could identify individuals through this. I hope the Minister will be able to assure the House that the appropriate safeguards and checks are in place.
Amendment 21 would ensure that patient information
“can only be shared by an appropriate authority if the individual to whom it relates has given their explicit (‘opt-in’) consent.”
We welcome the Government’s requirement for consent to share patient information. However, they have not specified how this consent mechanism will work in practice. This amendment in my name would ensure that important distinction, which has been mentioned by many noble Lords across the House. Other noble Lords have also mentioned care.data, which, because of a lack of clarity about the use of data, did not work. I hope the Government will be able to assure us that explicitly informed consent will be sought and secured.
Under Amendment 18, followed by Amendments 36 and 57, data would be disclosed to persons under international agreements or arrangements only for pharmacovigilance or if “in the public interest”. I hope the public interest bit answers the question from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Patel, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Freyberg, my noble friend Lord Hunt and other noble Lords for their support for this suite of amendments.
Overall, the government amendments narrow discretion and set out in more detail the purposes for the information-sharing powers. However, in our view they still potentially allow for the disclosure of patient data without consent to commercial partners for undefined, and therefore unknown, purposes to be settled as part of international agreements or trade deals. That is why the helpful read-across to the Trade Bill by the noble Lords, Lord Freyberg, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Patel, is so important. We recognise that information-sharing and disclosure may be necessary to allow smooth functioning and support internationally on pharmacovigilance, for example, but remain concerned that NHS data—which has been described as a treasure trove, worth perhaps £9.6 billion—could be bartered as part of commercial interests in trade deals.
Amendment 18, along with Amendments 36 and 57 in my name, would allow the Secretary of State to disclose NHS data only under the terms of an international agreement or trade deal for pharmacovigilance, of if it is otherwise in the public interest. We believe “the public interest” is a legitimate test that would offer reassurance that substantive and ethical issues relating to the sharing of data would at least be considered. I hope the Minister will recognise the value of this amendment; otherwise, as I say, I would like to test the opinion of the House.
Baroness Jolly
“( ) Regulations made under subsection (1) that introduce significant new policy or significant changes to existing policy are subject, in relation to regulations made by the Secretary of State, to the super-affirmative procedure set out in section (Super-affirmative procedure), in relation to regulations made by a Northern Ireland department, to section (Super-affirmative procedure: Northern Ireland), and, in relation to regulations of the Secretary of State and a Northern Ireland department acting jointly, to both.”
Baroness Jolly
“( ) Regulations made under subsection (1) that introduce significant new policy or significant changes to existing policy are subject, in relation to regulations made by the Secretary of State, to the super-affirmative procedure set out in section (Super-affirmative procedure), in relation to regulations made by a Northern Ireland department, to section (Super-affirmative procedure: Northern Ireland), and, in relation to regulations of the Secretary of State and a Northern Ireland department acting jointly, to both.”
Baroness Jolly
“( ) Regulations made under subsection (1) that introduce significant new policy or significant changes to existing policy are subject, in relation to regulations made by the Secretary of State, to the super-affirmative procedure set out in section (Super-affirmative procedure), in relation to regulations made by a Northern Ireland department, to section (Super-affirmative procedure: Northern Ireland), and, in relation to regulations of the Secretary of State and a Northern Ireland department acting jointly, to both.”
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]
My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and earlier speakers in welcoming this group of amendments. I support government Amendments 50, 64 and 96 and welcome the placing of the advisory committee on a statutory footing, and particularly that the affirmative procedure will be used.
My question goes to the nub of Amendment 50—in which regard, if this is correct, Amendments 51 and others in this group will not be needed. Is it for the Secretary of State to decide what goes in the regulations on which presumably Parliament will be consulted under the affirmative procedure?
I can quite understand that the use of “may” appears to be discretionary, leaving open what should be included. Having got this far, it would be helpful to understand the thinking behind the use of “may” in Amendment 50, which indicates that this may be discretionary, whereas clearly it appears to be the will of the House that this is mandatory.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
My Lords, we support these amendments from the Government and from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, which relate to the creation of a statutory committee to provide advice to the Secretary of State. Government Amendment 50 would allow the creation of such a committee in relation to medical devices, and the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, in this group would require the Secretary of State to create the committee in Amendment 50, as the Government’s amendment states only that the Government “may” create the committee, not that they must.
No Secretary of State should be above independent advice. Amendment 50 is no bad thing, and of course any advisory committee on a statutory footing should consist of patients as well as experts. I understand that there might be kickback on the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, but a Secretary of State will rarely have expertise in medical devices, so an ad hoc independent committee to inform, advise and warn would be very valuable. A lot of thought will need to be given to working out its terms of reference. We therefore support Amendments 51 to 53. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said, it will also be critical to ensure how this committee will work alongside the MHRA.
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, I am enormously thankful for that constructive debate. This change to the Devices Expert Advisory Committee should be welcomed. It provides for if not equivalence then equality between the medicines and medical devices regimes. It provides for transparency, which we value enormously, and it indicates our direction of travel, the step change and the commitment to patient safety that the MHRA will enshrine.
As has been noted, the committee already exists. It currently meets, and it has an impact and an effect, but these measures mean that it will be strengthened. This change is put forward not solely by the Government; it was a recommendation in the review authored by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege. It adds to the collective picture of improvements that we are making, from future regulation of devices to the medical devices information system. I reassure my noble friend Lord Lansley that we have a profound commitment to creating a regulator in the MHRA that has international influence. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that patient representatives are already on the DEAC. As Dr June Raine made clear in her briefing to noble Lords, she and the MHRA are massively committed to the patient safety agenda and to mobilising the patient safety voice through instruments such as the DEAC but not solely through it.
It is a delegated power, but one that I hope noble Lords agree is contained. It will allow us to ensure that the structure and focus of the committee can be kept under review to make best use of its impact, and the regulations will be subject to public consultation and all the steps therein.
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has tabled Amendments 51 to 53 to the government amendment, which would change the nature of the regulations such that they “must” rather than “may” be made. However, as I have set out, the committee already exists; it functions now. It will be strengthened by the regulations. We are committed to a more structured decision-making process that improves transparency. There is no equivocation or doubt; these regulations will be made.
The powers provided by Amendment 50 in my name will enable movement towards a more transparent, proactive, whole-life cycle approach to vigilance. Fundamentally, they will make a difference in the oversight of medical devices to the benefit of patients and patient safety.
I am grateful to noble Lords who have continued to shine a light on the importance of device safety. I hope that this additional tool in the arsenal demonstrates continued commitment and that I have provided sufficient reassurances for the noble Baroness to feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lansley (Con) [V]
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of King’s Heath, for his amendment and for the way he introduced it. It very helpfully allows us, at this very important moment, to take stock of how we secure the availability of medicines—although the legislation does not relate to NICE, and I am sure it will not surprise the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that I do not think it is appropriate for us to legislate to tell NICE how to do its work, given its independent statutory constitution. None the less, the Bill is about the availability of medicines, and it is really important for us to identify how the NICE processes can assist in ensuring that we get medicines to those who need them.
I shall say a few words about the NICE processes. First, let me address the objective, from my point of view. When I was Secretary of State, I advocated a process called “value-based pricing”, which was to try to understand that not only were there quantitative factors measured in quality-adjusted life years—QALYs —which, if one were able to secure them, gave one a quantitative basis for understanding the value of a new medicine, but that in addition there were other qualitative aspects, which I described as the societal benefits and the innovation benefits. I still think that this is the right approach.
In the international context, many countries are trying to escape the potential downward spiral of reference pricing, where everybody is trying to pay less than the average. The net result, if we carry on down that path and if the American Administration pursue that path, will be that we end up with inadequate support for the industry for the development of new and innovative medicines.
What we need to do is to value innovation and support the industry for the value it delivers. However, we do not measure it precisely in those terms. When we look at our current structure in this country, we need to understand that there is an opportunity created by what is known as VPAS—the voluntary pricing and access scheme. If it is genuinely the case, and we have argued that it should be, that the industry has accepted a constraint on the overall growth of the medicines budget in the NHS, and if it is clear that, if that growth is exceeded, there will be a rebate and that rebate does indeed return to benefit patients, through the NHS or the innovative medicines fund, so promoting access to new medicines, then we will arrive at the point where both NICE and NHS England should be working together to try to secure the best value from that drugs budget. I think they should be working together to ensure that, where there is a mandate for a new medicine, it is one which is supported by, not imposed upon, NHS England. That is increasingly where we should be aiming to arrive: at a combined thought.
What goes into value-based pricing matters enormously as well. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to some of the important aspects. First, it is about societal values. For example, if we can deliver a health gain among the parts of our population where health outcomes are poorest, then we should ascribe additional value to that health gain. A modifier for health inequalities is consistent, for example, with the statutory responsibilities of the NHS to seek to address and reduce health inequalities.
Unmet medical need makes a difference. Incremental effectiveness of medicines is important, but to have a medicine available for those who thought that there was no opportunity for treatment available to them from the NHS can make an enormous difference, and I think we should ascribe additional value to that. Medicines which deliver innovative benefits—for example, which have a whole new mode of action—can lead to subsequent treatments, and we should have a method of qualitatively understanding where those innovations, even if they may not have dramatic incremental benefits, none the less give us long-term potential. We should reflect that in the price that we are prepared to pay.
Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, we should not apply a discount rate to quality-adjusted life years that is directly comparable with the discount rates that are applied to revenues over time. I think people's time preference for quality-adjusted life years is not so dramatically higher for gain now as opposed to gain in the future; there is a much greater degree of equivalence between health gain now and health gain that people will derive in future. That would certainly assist in promoting medicines that slow the progression of disease and help us to manage longer-term morbidity in our older population, which would be immensely helpful.
There is a whole range of such matters and there are many more one could talk about, but it is really important to distinguish between NICE’s job in undertaking a health technology assessment, which I think should be moved from the purely quantitative to the qualitative. It should include, for example, relying not only on randomised control trial data but understanding observational data and the data we receive from the use of the innovative medicines fund to see how well medicines work and what benefits and outcomes they can deliver—sometimes in relatively small populations for rare diseases—understanding that in practice and incorporating it in its assessment.
We need to support NICE in delivering what is regarded internationally, I hope, as a gold standard of health technology assessment. We need to understand that that is separate and distinct from the business of what price the NHS should pay and on what basis the industry and we, as payers for new medicines, should agree, understanding that our objective must always be to ensure that safe, effective and high-quality medicines are available to the NHS and patients.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
My Lords, these amendments relate to NHS access to medical devices, and Amendment 46 from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, would ensure early access for NHS patients to medical devices and allow monitoring of safety and efficacy in real-time use. This amendment is pre-empted rather by the Government’s amendment, which removes the concept of attractiveness.
Amendment 66 from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, would require NICE to ensure that its recommendations support the NHS in the ways outlined in subsection (1) of the proposed new clause. This includes ensuring access to new medicines and medical devices for patients with rare diseases. Those of us who have been involved in rare diseases will be all too well aware of the problems of access to appropriate treatments for so few patients.
The interesting thing about this debate is that two of the House’s big health thinkers have been speaking, and both the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, have given us a really good big-picture look which takes us slightly above legislation.
The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, spoke of social and innovation benefits and the need to value innovation, but with innovation does not always come success: we may have to try again. He spoke about the innovative medicines fund and the necessity for NICE and NHS England to work together. When it is put like that, it sounds very straightforward: why is that not normally happening? He talked about the importance of value-based pricing and getting the best value from the drugs budget—which, after all, is finite. He also talked about the health technology assessment, which is of course qualitative, not quantitative. I valued the contribution of this debate on the fourth group of amendments, and I will read it again with great interest.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
This amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Cumberlege and Lady Bennett, would require the Secretary of State to introduce proposals for a redress agency for those harmed by medicines and medical devices. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, said, the concept of a redress agency for those harmed in such a manner has been around for many years but has not been realised. However, in the light of the Cumberlege report, which has been a great catalyst for innovation, the Government must see that now is the time. This is a really practical and common-sense move that would provide support and relief for patients while also avoiding the need for costly litigation on both sides, saving the NHS a considerable amount of money which could be better spent.
The NHS has a duty to give proper support to those in its care who have been harmed. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said, there needs to be independent fact-finding, leading to a resolution process. He cited the NHS Redress Act 2006. I ask the Minister to reflect on this debate and to speak to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State, perhaps using his charm to persuade him to think again.
One advantage of being at home for this debate, in front of your own computer in your own study, is the opportunity quickly to look online to see how easy it is to find the relevant website. It took me a couple of searches before I came up with NHS Resolution, but it was not hugely helpful or intuitive. Therefore, would the Minister also feed that back to the Secretary of State and the people who manage these schemes?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, raises matters in Amendment 67 that he raised in Grand Committee. I completely recognise that they are of enormous concern right across the House. One could say that it is the £83 billion question. I know he is an advocate, as indeed are many noble Lords, of the conclusions of the Independent Medicines and Medical Devices Safety Review, led by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, and I commend him and other former Health Ministers in this place.
In Committee, we had a very helpful, substantial and informative discussion on the concept and merits of a redress agency. I know that the noble Lord indicated that he would return to these matters if it seemed likely that we were unable to give an update on the way in which the department is responding to the review. I understand that he seeks further assurances and I shall attempt to give them.
As I set out in Committee, we are determined to ensure the safety of medicines and devices so that harm is less likely to happen in the first place, and, when things do go wrong, we are committed to fair redress arrangements that work for all. However, for the reasons that I set out in Committee, we do not believe it is necessary to create a new body for the purpose of providing redress for medicines and devices.
First, routes already exist if patients believe they were harmed by medicines or medical devices. They can bring a legal claim in the courts either against the manufacturer on the basis of product liability or against the actions of an NHS provider or clinician.
Secondly, the Government and manufacturers already have the ability to set up redress schemes when necessary, and in fact they have done so already, where appropriate, without ever establishing an additional agency. Setting up an overarching redress agency could become an unnecessary addition to an already complex landscape.
Thirdly, we do not believe that a redress agency in this country would necessarily make products safer or drive the right incentives for industries which are usually directed from a global level. It is a fact of life that any extra costs to firms could impact the attractiveness of the UK as a place to market and manufacture products —something that we are committed to supporting.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked what, in the absence of wholesale changes, we are doing to improve things. Since its strategy, Delivering Fair Resolution and Learning From Harm, was launched in 2017, NHS Resolution has successfully reduced the number of cases going to litigation. In its 2019-20 accounts, it reported that 71% of claims are now resolved without court hearings, which is extremely encouraging.
This has been accompanied by a significant increase in the use of ADR—alternative dispute resolution, referred to by my noble friend Lord Lansley—with over 1,000 mediations undertaken by 31 March 2020, with a success rate of around 80%. This is again encouraging. As a result of the strategies employed on ADR and early resolution, overall time to resolution of cases had reduced since the NAO report by an average of 26 days. The new early notification scheme for obstetric cerebral palsy has ensured that many early admissions of liability and interim payments can be made to families within months. In answer to my noble friend Lord Lansley, we keep the whole arrangement under review and assess options all the time.
Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con) [V]
My Lords, it is a privilege to be able to support and put my name to the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege. As has so often been the case in this Bill, where she leads, others follow, and I entirely endorse everything that she and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, have said. My reason for supporting the amendment is simple: as my noble friend made clear today, there are tens of thousands of women, men and their families who are suffering from the impact of licensed medicines and medical devices that have been wrongly used.
My noble friend’s landmark review gives voice to so many people who have been ignored for too long; that is what gives it such moral power and makes the force of its arguments so irresistible. Within the final report of her review is a clear recommendation for ex gratia redress schemes to be established for those affected by the HPT, mesh and valproate scandals. To my mind, this recommendation is neither radical nor extraordinary: such schemes have been set up in the past—for the victims of thalidomide and contaminated blood. Indeed, this is a common-sense proposal, and it is urgent—because the suffering of so many continues to this day, as my noble friend pointed out.
I have spoken in the past of two women—Janet Williams and Emma Murphy—whose lives, and whose children’s lives, have been changed for ever by in utero exposure to sodium valproate. They were interviewed as part of a recent Channel 4 documentary on the challenges they face in day-to-day life, the guilt they have been made to feel and their struggle to be heard. Janet and Emma’s honesty and tenacity have been an inspiration to me since I met them, and I defy anyone to watch that programme and not be moved to tears.
I was also contacted recently by another lady, who has been harmed by mesh. Her name is Susan Morgan, and, with her permission, I convey her story. She described to me being on,
“a hideous journey that was thrust upon me without consent”,
suffering grievous, painful and irreparable damage due to a mesh that can now never be removed. Sadly, she has lost nearly everything in dealing with the consequences of this terrible, avoidable injury, and she asks only that
“the burden of fear and worry be removed so that I can find some peace”.
Therefore, I ask my noble friend the Minister: are the redress schemes proposed in the review of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, under serious consideration, as my honourable friend Nadine Dorries said in the other place earlier this week? I hope so. If so, when will they be introduced? Only a robust answer will be enough to satisfy those supporting this amendment. I close by imploring my noble friend to move quickly: these victims cannot wait any longer—their pain is real, and their need is urgent. Of course, a redress scheme will not change or right every wrong that has been done to Susan, Janet, Emma and thousands like them, but perhaps it might bring them some peace.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
Amendment 68, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, requires the Secretary of State
“to create redress schemes for those who have already suffered avoidable harm”
related to hormone pregnancy tests, sodium valproate and pelvic mesh. The Minister has told us that there will be no redress agency. The noble Lord spoke passionately about suffering without redress. A significant amount will need to be paid through NHS Resolution to the women affected by these three interventions. Who will ensure that the women affected receive proper recompense? As the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, has said, they have had to pay out for travel for treatment and payment for carers, and they are seriously out of pocket for what they originally thought was standard, straightforward NHS treatment.
I fear that, if there is no scheme, the NHS will have to pay more than it would through a properly managed redress scheme. This and the previous amendment are powerful signals to the Government that they must act on this issue of redress. I hope that, in summing up, the Minister will be able to share the Government’s plans with us. If they have no plans, what would he suggest that these women should do? The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, put the case very powerfully.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]
I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, that this afternoon we have given a powerful signal to the Government. Certainly, from these Benches, we very much support her amendment and her efforts to get redress for people who were grievously damaged by procedures undertaken in the National Health Service.
The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, talked about one woman’s experience of the impact of surgical mesh, and the huge pain and damage inflicted. I was very grateful to him when I had a Question on surgical mesh, which he answered, as watching it from the Gallery were a group of women from Sling the Mesh, who I had brought in. He gave a lot of time to them afterwards; perhaps it paved the way to the inquiry established under the chairmanship of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. Like him, meeting those women and talking to them about what they had suffered made me absolutely determined to do anything I could to raise the issue.
We were very fortunate that the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, accepted the chairmanship of this inquiry, given the quality of her team and the extraordinary lengths to which she went to produce its very fine report. Anyone who has met the people involved and listened to the suffering that they have undertaken is left with a feeling that it is awful. Something must be done for them and I very much hope that the Minister will be sympathetic.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Patel.
What does one say to the people of Northern Ireland? They voted to remain in the EU, their vote was ignored by the DUP, and they have been duped by the Government, who continue to deny that there is a border in the North Sea—when today we are debating ample evidence of such a border. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, identified, the distinction the MHRA is now having to make between the EU market, the British market and the market for Northern Ireland, as well as the bureaucracy involved and the cost for British-based companies, is undeniable.
These two very modest amendments seek to ensure that Parliament gets a regular report on how this is working in relation to medicines and medical devices regulations, and that various bodies should be consulted. However, over and above that, the Minister owes the House some explanation of how we have ended up in this bizarre situation, where Northern Ireland, which wanted to be in the EU and wanted to be listened to, has ended up in this rather parallel existence, with a border down the North Sea, food shortages in its supermarkets, and in a right mess. I hope the Minister can answer that.
Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]
My Lords, the amendments in this group relate to reporting requirements and consultation. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has just put the political case very clearly; the noble Lord, Lord Patel, looked at the technical and regulatory issues; I will look at the practical issues around health services on the island of Ireland.
Amendment 69 from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, would require the Secretary of State to report on regulatory divergence between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Can the Minister tell us when the first report would be published, whether the Republic would be part of this consultation, and if not, why not? The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and I tabled this amendment to require the relevant authority to consult with patients and healthcare and industry stakeholders when preparing a report under Clause 44.
Divergence is inevitable. The situation for healthcare on the island of Ireland could become extremely complicated. In the past, patients have travelled north or south to receive treatment wherever the appropriate treatment is available. Will citizens from Northern Ireland and the Republic have to use the new GHIC, or do the Government have an agreement with the Republic so that business as usual will be the new norm—no change?
Government Amendments 75 to 77 and 79 to 85 extend the reporting requirements under Clause 44 so that they apply to regulations made by a Northern Ireland department and in respect of regulations under Clause 18. However, we cannot ignore the Republic when we talk about health in Ireland.
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, we now turn to the way in which reports are prepared and made on the exercise of the regulatory-making powers in the Bill.
Amendment 69 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, would make changes to the existing requirement to report, introduced in Grand Committee. It proposes that an additional report be made by the Secretary of State to Parliament, this time on regulatory divergence with Northern Ireland introduced as a consequence of future regulations. I understand the noble Baroness’s intent. I heard the concerns raised in Grand Committee about the potential impact of regulatory divergence. The Government take that seriously. However, I will explain why this amendment is not necessary to address it.
As a reminder, the amendments made in Grand Committee provided for a reporting obligation on the operation of regulations made by the Secretary of State under Clauses 1(1), 9(1) and 14(1)—one that was both forward- and backward-looking. Those reports must include any concerns raised or proposals for change made by anyone consulted by the Secretary of State in the preparation of the report, and the response to these. It will necessarily draw Parliament’s attention to regulations that have been made.
Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill relating to human and veterinary medicines are matters transferred to Northern Ireland. As such, legislative consent was secured for the Bill earlier in its passage, but as amendments were made during Grand Committee, further legislative consent was sought. At Northern Ireland’s request, government Amendments 75, 76, 79, 80, 81, 82 and 85 in this group replicate the existing reporting obligation for Northern Ireland. This means there will be a report laid in Parliament every two years on what new regulations have been made and any plans to make further related regulations. A separate report will be laid before Northern Ireland. Between our report and the report laid before the Northern Ireland Assembly, any areas of regulatory divergence between the UK and Northern Ireland regulatory regimes will be made clear. Therefore, it would be duplicative to require the Secretary of State to lay additional reports specifically on regulatory divergence for human and veterinary medicines and medical devices.
In addition, where there are concerns about the implementation of the protocol and its impact on patients and animals in Northern Ireland, there are formal channels in place. Officials meet regularly in the Ireland/Northern Ireland Specialised Committee. The Specialised Committee reports to the Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee and provides advice on decisions to be taken by the Joint Committee under the protocol.
Before the end of the transition period, we raised with the EU through its specialised committee the issue of the falsified medicines directive and regulatory importation requirements for medicines moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland after 1 January. We agreed with the EU a pragmatic one-year, time-limited approach to implementing these regulations that ensures no disruption to the flow of medicines to Northern Ireland. I say this to reassure noble Lords as to the effectiveness of those mechanisms under the protocol.
Noble Lords made a number of comments on the issue of regulatory divergence and I thought I would dwell on it briefly. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, gave a good description of future provisions regulating devices between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. He is wrong to say that the Bill lays out Northern Ireland separately because of this. It does so because medicines and veterinary medicines in Northern Ireland are the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Assembly and are therefore devolved. However, divergence may be an issue for the future, not least because the EU may change its own regulatory regime under the protocol that Northern Ireland will follow, and the UK may make changes here as well.
To reassure noble Lords, we have agreed a standstill period of two years for medicines and veterinary medicines and two and a half years for devices, during which we will continue to recognise EU regulations in these areas. This means that there is time for adequate consultation on regulations made under this Bill, for consultation on any future changes and for these mechanisms to operate properly. Divergence may be a matter for the future, but we have reporting to Parliament and public consultations on any regulations made under this Bill to address those questions.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked how we ended up here. I think that question is slightly wider than the purview of this Bill. I have quite a lot of lived experience of how we ended up here and I do not intend to recount that now.
I hope the amendments I have referred to in the name of my noble friend Lord Bethell, coupled with these other, existing arrangements, make the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness unnecessary.
Government Amendments 77, 83 and 84, also in the name of my noble friend, are made in the same light of expanding reporting obligations. In the interests of transparency and scrutiny, amendments have been made to extend the obligation to include regulations made under Clause 18—the regulation-making power in relation to the medical devices information system. We have made this change to make clear our absolute commitment to transparency, to giving Parliament continued visibility, to understanding the assessment made of any proposals or concerns raised as to how the regulations have been working, and to ensure that the regulation-making powers specifically containing provisions that may ensure or affect device safety and post-market surveillance are treated equally.
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, again seeks to test us on the preparation of the reports with Amendment 78, which would add a list of stakeholders to be consulted under the obligation. Again, this is unnecessary. If her concern is that the stakeholders listed may be ignored, I reassure her that the reports must summarise concerns raised, or proposals for change made, in relation to regulations enforced during the reporting period. That information will come from engagement with relevant stakeholders. Therefore, I do not think it necessary or proportionate to add a list of specific stakeholders to be consulted for each report, which will be a summary of public consultation that will already have been responded to.
I must say to the noble Baronesses, Lady Jolly and Lady Wheeler, that the Government will not return to this issue at Third Reading, so if they wish to press it, now is the moment. However, with the number of avenues already available, I hope that they are reassured that their amendment is not needed and will not wish to press it.
Baroness Jolly
Baroness Jolly
“Super-affirmative procedure
(1) For the purposes of section 1(1), section 9(1), section 14(1) and section 18(1), the “super-affirmative procedure” is as follows.(2) The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament—(a) a draft of the regulations, and(b) a document which explains the draft regulations.(3) Where a draft of the regulations is laid before Parliament under subsection (2), no statutory instrument containing the regulations is to be laid before Parliament until after the expiry of the 30-day period. (4) The Secretary of State must request a committee of either House whose remit includes health, science or technology to report on the draft regulations within the 30-day period.(5) In preparing a draft statutory instrument containing the regulations, the Secretary of State must take account of—(a) any representations,(b) any resolution of either House of Parliament, and(c) any recommendations of a committee under subsection (4), made within the 30-day period with regard to the draft regulations.(6) If, after the 30-day period, the Secretary of State wishes to make regulations in the terms of the draft or a revised draft, he or she must lay before Parliament a statement—(a) stating whether any representations, resolutions or recommendations were made under subsection (5);(b) giving details of any representations, resolutions or recommendations so made; and(c) explaining any changes made in any revised draft of the regulations.(7) The Secretary of State may make a statutory instrument containing the regulations (whether or not revised) if, after the laying of the statement required under subsection (6), a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.(8) In this section, reference to “the 30-day period” in relation to any draft regulations is to the period of 30 days beginning with the day on which the original draft regulations were laid before Parliament.(9) For the purposes of subsection (8) no account is to be taken of any time during which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or during which either House is adjourned for more than four days.”