Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th October 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for tabling their amendments, which allow us to have a useful debate; we might not otherwise reach into what some implications of the use of these powers might be. I particularly thank them for the way in which the amendments were introduced, which set out clearly and fairly the context and facts with which we need to work.

I recognise that Amendment 23 is a probing amendment. I am sure that the noble Baroness knows that, if she actually wanted to remove the capacity for legislating to introduce hub and spoke models, Clause 2(1)(g) would have to go as well as paragraph (c) to make that effective, but I do not think she wants to do that; I do not either. We all want to express our support for the pharmacy sector. In my view, the Government’s proposals in the Bill will allow that support to be given additional expression; they seem a positive step to have taken.

As someone who was shielded earlier in the year, about the only place I ever visited in April and May was the local pharmacy—not that often, but the fact that it was there and working, and the way in which it worked, was immensely impressive. Over the years, I have had a great deal to do with the pharmacy industry. In some cases, I am not sure that it was altogether happy about that. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, may remember that I worked with the National Audit Office in about 2008, when I was shadow Secretary of State, to establish the extent to which the pharmacy sector benefited through the category M reimbursement system by hundreds of millions of pounds more than it was supposed to. Those large-scale additional funds that were going into the sector had to be clawed back, as happened in the early part of the decade that we have just gone through.

That led to considerable turbulence in pharmacy incomes and values. They were overinflated and the incomes were higher between about 2015 and 2018, and the considerable clawback had a negative impact. Most recently, it is telling that the value of pharmacies—and the price increase—has gone down. It is also interesting to read the commentaries that say that pharmacy in Scotland attracts greater value because the flow of resources into it there is regarded as more stable than in England.

That is a great pity, because we have reached a point where there should be more stability and funding for pharmacies, and I want to pick up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. He suggested that the Government consider turning the advance payment into not a loan but a grant. It is a large sum of money, so it is not as easy as that. However, whereas earlier this year the global fund for pharmacies was set at about £2.6 billion and was going to be retained at that level in cash terms over five years, we have to think hard about whether that is reasonable under the circumstances. There is a good case for recognising additional costs met by pharmacies this year, and potentially into next year, and for reimbursing them perhaps through a change to the establishment fee before it disappears, with a considerable sum to recognise that.

We must also recognise that pharmacies will need real-terms increases in their resources—much as other parts of the NHS-related system are seeing real-terms increases in resources—and not to stand still in cash terms. Over the next four years, that might be something like £130 million extra.

All the way through, we have never achieved as much as we should in terms of pharmacies delivering additional services, particularly clinical services. It is partly because clinical commissioning groups have never quite recognised the flexibility they have in budget terms to use pharmacies. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, referred, quite rightly, to medicines use reviews—which are being phased out—new medicine services, nicotine-replacement services, sexual health services, minor illness services and so on. A wide range of additional services can be provided by pharmacies. If they can do it, frankly, the GPs, as those at the heart of the clinical commissioning groups, will find that it benefits them directly in reduced demand on their surgeries, which is of course one of their principal stresses at the moment. I hope that the Government will think about all that.

In this context, with these powers in the Bill, the Government do not need to know whether a large number of independent pharmacies will take advantage of the hub and spoke model. It is entirely permissive; they can choose to do so or not. The fact that they cannot at the moment is a significant potential constraint on the ability of independent pharmacies to access the benefits of automation in their sector. I am absolutely clear that we ought to give them access to this potential benefit. I do not know how many would take advantage of it or to what extent the large company chains would make their hub and spoke model available to allow independent pharmacies to get the benefits of that automation. It seems to me that they should, because there are many parts of the country that they do not reach and where they are not in competition. It is perfectly reasonable for them to allow them to access to it, particularly in some of those more remote parts of the country where dispensing is more difficult.

Many of the concerns raised about this in the debate seem to come down to the separate question that I can remember debating on legislation 15 or more years ago about whether we retain the role of the responsible pharmacist. This does not change that. The responsible pharmacist will remain as is; I do not see any plan to change that part of the pharmacy regulation. The change to hub and spoke seems potentially desirable.

While Amendment 29 does not need to be in the Bill, it makes a very good point, which is that there should be consultation and an agreed framework with the industry, and we should ensure that the framework is one that is seen to link resources and changes in the regulations, to enable it to compete more effectively. To that extent, I hope the Minister will take on board and support the intentions of Amendment 29.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their kind words and messages. I now have a tentative diagnosis and when I get my medication I hope to be functioning at 100% soon.

These amendments are on hub and spoke dispensing, where a hub pharmacy dispenses medicines on a large scale, often by making use of automation, preparing and assembling the medicines for regular spoke pharmacies that supply the medicines to the patient. My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones has given a detailed account of how hub and spoke works.

When the five-year funding contract for pharmacy in England was announced, the Government also pledged to change legislation so that independent pharmacies could operate this hub and spoke dispensing model. My noble friend tabled Amendment 29, which would ensure that the Government consult stakeholders on how hub and spoke is used and agree a framework with the support of the relevant sectors. This will ensure that the expected savings and efficiencies, and new healthcare services via pharmacies, can be delivered.

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To justify resisting this amendment, the Minister must spell out the unintended consequences of this if there are any. To say this is not the Bill, or not the time, and so on, will just not be good enough.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and signed by my noble friend Lady Northover, allows the Secretary of State to make regulations about human tissue. I repeat the noble Lord’s explanation of the amendment:

“This amendment adds the origin and treatment of human tissue, including organs, to the list of matters about which regulations may be made by the appropriate authority, in the context that informed, valid, uncoerced and demonstrably documented consent may not have been given for the harvesting of such human tissue and organs.”


I find it hard to imagine when any state has power over its citizens that few other states share. I find it even harder to imagine how desperate and selfish people must be to buy these organs, knowing that their donors’ lives will certainly be blighted, or even lost, to feed such a market, which is the dark side of consumerism.

Human tissue and organs can currently be imported into the UK from countries such as China without traceability, documentation or consent, and there is widespread concern that forced organ harvesting is taking place. It is appalling that Falun Gong Christians are targeted as donors, although I hate to use the word “donor”, which suggests that the organ is freely and willingly given, whereas the evidence to the contrary is total. This amendment would urge the Government to introduce legislation to ensure that the UK is not complicit in this. I support my noble friend Lady Northover, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, who put his name to the amendment. If the Government do not support this amendment, will the Minister confirm that she will be prepared to look at bringing forward, on Report, a government amendment to stop this abhorrent practice?

[Lord Ribeiro (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I was delighted to add my name to the amendment, so ably introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. The Human Tissue Authority code of practice refers to the EU tissues and cells directive, which requires importers of donated material to have a

“detailed description of the criteria used for donor identification and evaluation, information provided to the donor or donor family, how consent is obtained … and whether the donation was voluntary and unpaid or not.”


During my career as a surgeon and a urologist, I supported transplant teams to harvest organs from patients who had requested that their organs be used in the event of their death. In every case, informed consent was obtained, and relatives were in agreement and consented to the procedure. One cannot be confident that such arrangements pertain in relation to donor parts used in transplantation in China and elsewhere, particularly where the donors are likely to be prisoners.

Advice that I have received from the Royal College of Surgeons notes that, sadly, the issue of UK patients travelling overseas for transplant surgery is not confined to China and is known to occur also in Pakistan and India. A considerable number of UK patients have undergone kidney transplantation from living donors in this way. For the report mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, Sir Geoffrey Nice met with the Royal College of Surgeons to discuss the allegations relating to China. It found the allegations alarming and the evidence concerning. We know that, in China, patients can receive organs within a matter of weeks. Heart transplant surgery can be bought in advance and, according to data collected by the China Liver Transplant Registry, the percentage of emergency, compared to non-emergency, liver transplants is far higher than one would expect. During his investigation, the BBC journalist Matthew Hill was offered a liver for $100,000 by a Chinese hospital, at very short notice. Patients in the UK would struggle to achieve this with a waiting time of several months.

According to experts, an estimated 60,000 to 90,000 organ transplants are happening in China each year, yet China’s voluntary donation system was only established in 2013. Quite recent data, from June 2020, shows that 2,127,955 people have registered as organ donors in China. That is a significant increase on the figure in 2014, which was 22,660. Is it a coincidence that the UK signed the Council of Europe Convention against Trafficking in Human Organs in 2015 and that, in the same year, the Chinese Government introduced legislation that rendered illegal the use of executed prisoners as organ donors? Contacts in the transplant society in the UK believe that this legislation was introduced in good faith and that any such practices that continue are illegal and without official sanction. I hope that that is the case, but the perception is that these practices have not ceased completely. It is the view of some UK transplant surgeons who have visited China, as I have, for transplant-related meetings, that large, prestigious hospitals practise within the law. However, illegal practices do occur and we should use this amendment to send a clear message to the Chinese Government that they must make greater efforts to stamp out the illegal practices that tarnish the reputation of their country.

We have a moral and ethical obligation to investigate UK patients who receive transplants in China, as identified by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and to clearly identify the source of the transplant organs. That is doubly important because, if complications occur, it will be the NHS that has to pick up the pieces.

Finally, it would appear that, although the UK has signed the Council of Europe convention on organ trafficking, we have yet to ratify it. Will my noble friend undertake to explain why this has not been done?

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[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 97 in the name of my noble friend Lord Kakkar, to which I have added my name. Before I do so, I have a comment in response to an important question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, which my noble friend Lord Kakkar answered. How do you test the effectiveness of a device which is an implant, and is likely to remain in the body permanently? This is opposed to implants such as pacemakers—as I alluded to on Monday—where, in one example, a device was unsatisfactory after having gone through testing, but was then implanted in 1,400 patients before its faults were clearly recognised. In that case, it was possible to remove the device, and put in one which functioned better. The testing of an implant which is likely to be permanent must be more rigorous, in terms of its tissue reactivity, in the training it will require, and in the possible harm it can do. This is particularly true for things like mesh that are likely to be embedded into the tissue. People claimed that that mesh was safe because it had been used by surgeons for years for hernia repairs. As I said on Monday, I have never used mesh for any of the surgery I did, so I do not know its performance. The question of the noble Baroness is quite right: it does not mean that we do not have to progress with finding new medical devices which would be effective; it means that we need to ask significant questions, depending on the device we are talking about. I may not have answered her question, but I have tried to identify ways we might do that.

My noble friend Lord Kakkar has made a very important point about the need for medical devices to be tested for their effectiveness in the functions they are supposed to provide prior to their being granted full market approval. Generally, the design of a medical device is regulated by its essential principles of safety and performance with respect to its design and construction. Less attention is paid to its clinical effectiveness throughout its expected life, whatever that might be. Medical devices play an important role in enhancing patient quality of life, but there is a need for improved methodology to obtain evidence for their safety, performance and efficacy. The UK, with its strong research base, and with the NHS at its core, is well placed to generate the high-quality evidence needed. Guidance is needed to generate, implement and produce the evidence required to foster innovation. Adopting engineering principles of continuous monitoring, reporting of accidents or near misses—similar to post-market surveillance of medical devices—is important. In developing medical devices, dialogue between clinicians, manufacturers, and end users—the patients—to identify which devices need to be developed is valuable, but not often followed.

While not as robust as a randomised control trial, observational studies are important in identifying rare, catastrophic and delayed harm. Furthermore, medical devices are less amenable to controlled trials, being part of a complex system of care, involving people in other systems. The UK has an opportunity to develop specialised medical device trial centres and clinical networks to oversee early to late-phase trials. That initiative would benefit patients and put the UK in a lead position to develop safe and effective medical devices.

The Royal Academy of Engineering and the Academy of Medical Sciences, of which I am a fellow, have much to offer in such an initiative. With his amendment, which rightly promotes the requirement that medical devices should demonstrate their clinical effectiveness prior to a full market authorisation licence, my noble friend Lord Kakkar has also provided an opportunity for the UK to develop leading-edge medical device regulation, and be a place for developing safe and effective medical devices.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, made some telling remarks and asked some searching questions. We support the amendments in this group relating to the granting of licences and the processes of clinical trials. They aim to improve patient safety, as the granting of provisional licences will allow more information to be available on devices and medicines.

Amendment 84 is intended to probe the various thresholds for medical device trials. At present, new devices deemed to be “substantially equivalent” to something already on the market are certified as safe via a notified body and can go on to be used quite straightforwardly. In contrast to standards for introducing new pharmaceutical products, data from robust clinical trials are not required. Delays in the introduction of innovative treatments and medical devices should be avoidable. We should, and could, become a key player in the world market.

Safety is always paramount and the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, to develop rapid, two-year, provisional MHRA licences is a good innovation. Start-ups would welcome these moves.

The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, spoke about hip replacements. He made some helpful remarks about registries. I was a trustee of an organisation called Orthopaedic Research UK, which was left a considerable amount of money by a wealthy orthopaedic surgeon with a view to fostering innovation in orthopaedics. Research scientists, doctors and start-ups are able to bid for funding on projects to aid orthopaedic research, with a view to taking a development to market. The amendments in this group will help researchers working on these projects, as will the granting of two-year licences on these devices.

Devices certified through this process are not tested to establish whether they deliver significant patient benefit. Rather, the system only establishes that a device is not unsafe and that it fulfils its intended function. Meanwhile, even when clinical trials are required, because a device is deemed sufficiently different from what is on the market to merit that, the rules around how that research is constructed are looser than for medicines. These are practical, useful measures.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

This has been a wholly positive and helpful debate, and I hope that it will lead to improving the Bill and the future of this issue. I shall speak briefly to the amendment in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins. It would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations about notification and reporting requirements for medical device clinical investigations, as is currently the case for medicines. It is about the equality of treatment between medicines and medical devices, so it is very straightforward.

I thank my noble friend Lord Hunt, who I suspect made a double speech, his own and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and it is all to the good that he did. I again register the protest that we are losing experts and speakers because of the clash of timetabling.

All the amendments in this group are positive amendments about how medicines and medical devices reach the market, how the UK can build and maintain a leading position, and the regulatory framework required to support that. Amendment 97, in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Kakkar and Lord Patel, does that, and I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, made some very interesting points about how it might best be achieved. The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, were quite right about putting patient safety at the heart of this and having higher levels of evaluation—the term used by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, got straight to the heart of the issue, which is that we need to get together to work out how best to take this issue forward at the next stage of the Bill. I look forward to what I hope will be a positive response from the Minister and then to the Government taking some action.

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[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, set the tone for this debate. I share the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath; his concerns should concern us all. We are entering new territory. We have worked across an EU framework for a long time and are now going to be on our own. We need to work out policies and procedures to deal with this new landscape, which of course is what we are doing today. However, we will still have to work with Europe, if not within it.

I understand that we are to leave on 31 December, but we really must not bury our heads in the ground. Regulation will be key; mutual recognition is important. I think the Minister has referred to mutual recognition in the past. I wonder if he or the noble Baroness, Lady Penn—I am not sure who will be summing up—could clarify that issue. We need easy and ready access to new medicines, early-phase trials and the willingness of the NHS to take them up. There is also the role of NICE. We have not looked at mutual recognition of standards, but we need to share information with international partners. My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones asked a lot of pertinent questions. If the Minister does not have these issues in her brief, perhaps we might have either a letter or a meeting, because these are really meaty issues that we are discussing.

Amendment 27 would make provision to enable the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency to work with other regulators to minimise delay so that the UK can get early access to new medicines. Amendment 45 would require the Secretary of State to publish their proposed regime for a list of fees in respect of human medicines. What is the timescale on that? It would be interesting to see this fees regime alongside the old regime that we will be leaving.

Government Amendments 48 and 66 relate to the disclosure of information in accordance with international agreements. My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones had something to say about that. Interestingly, although I am not absolutely clear, Labour’s Amendment 118 aims to protect medicines and medical devices regulations from any form of control from outside the UK in the event of a trade deal. This goes back to legislation that we dealt with, which I think we ended up renaming the international health Bill. We need to be clear, coming up to the end of the year, about what a trade deal might actually look like and what things would look like without a trade deal. Those are my reflections on the amendments.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

This is a slightly strange time to be making this speech, because it seems likely that we will not hear the Minister’s speech until we reconvene in a week’s time. If that is the case, I would like to register that I will probably want to ask a question after the Minister speaks, if that is where we finally end up.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and my noble friend Lord Hunt for the way in which they spoke at the beginning of this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, went into a level of detail about the effects of the government amendments that was absolutely right and accurate. It also lies at the heart of my remarks. I need to make it clear from the outset that we on these Benches regard the government amendments to this part of the Bill as dangerous, sloppy and possibly sinister. The Minister must be aware, because we have discussed it with the Bill manager, that we regard the use of “a person” in Amendment 48 as something that should set alarm bells ringing right across the House.

I am getting a feeling of déjà vu. The Bill mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, started its life as the international healthcare arrangements Bill and ended it as the European Union and Swiss healthcare arrangements Bill, because it cast its net so wide. One of the giveaways is what the Government say in their description of their amendments:

“This new Clause makes clear that information held by the Secretary of State or the Department of Health in Northern Ireland in connection with human medicines can be disclosed, subject to certain restrictions, to persons outside the United Kingdom in order to give effect to a relevant international agreement or arrangement.”


The same explanatory statement follows the other government amendments in this group and tells us what the purpose of these amendments is. This underlines why we on these Benches will ask the Delegated Powers Committee to have another look at the Bill. These amendments fundamentally change the purpose of the Bill. It is not the same Bill that it looked at when it did its first report in July.

One of the reasons why this discussion—I am afraid I do not use the word “debate” about these proceedings—is so important is the read-across to the Trade Bill, to which I moved an amendment in Grand Committee a few weeks ago. It is about scrutiny and accountability. Amendment 45 is about fees: accountability and transparency and setting the level of fees. I would like the Minister to address that issue, which is fairly straightforward.

Amendment 118 in my name concerns international agreements. In terms of its policy content, it is probably the opposite of government Amendment 48. There is a policy clash here and I need to be clear that I am very unhappy about the fact that we have to agree to amendments that are unacceptable to us because of the time problems that the Government face on the Bill. We will be looking very carefully indeed at these sections of the Bill and will be seeking to amend them at the next stage.

The read-across we need to look at is to do with the trade negotiations with the United States, the EU and elsewhere, where we have to have systems of transparency and scrutiny about trade deals. The House of Lords passed an amendment to a previous Trade Bill on parliamentary scrutiny, but the Government have not made good their promises to give Parliament a say in new trade deals. I am concerned about the threat to our NHS and public health from these amendments, and about the misuse of information. We are concerned that, at present, Parliament does not have adequate powers to guide and scrutinise either the trade negotiations or the issues that will arise out of the Bill. We will need to look at this very carefully when it moves to the next stage.