Children and Families Bill

Baroness Howarth of Breckland Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, have considerable concerns about Clause 76, and my noble friend Lady Tyler explained our concerns very well. I do not deny that there are problems with the Section 11 duty, and many local authorities want the Government to do something about it. In fact, the reports have become a bit of a monster and some local authorities do not regard them as terribly useful. However, to repeal the whole duty is taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. My noble friend has suggested a sensible alternative and I support her view.

I, too, look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. If the Government were to change their mind about this, and simply change the guidance, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, that it would make a lot of sense to have some kind of standard template so that different local authorities could be compared with each other. Both policymakers and those who disseminate best practice would find it very useful to be able to compare apples with apples and not apples with pears. I also look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about the word “normally” in relation to inadequate nurseries. That, too, gives me some concern.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)]

My Lords, although I had not intended to speak on this section, I would like to raise one particular concern. Before I do that, I will add my concerns to those of the noble Baronesses raising the issue of repeal under Clause 76. Earlier, before we began the Committee, the noble Lord, Lord McColl, talked to me about whether a particular group of children should be given priority and whether we could find a way of doing that. I said that, if you try that, you will find that almost every group of children that local authorities currently deal with are a priority, because those are the only groups that they deal with at the moment. It is very difficult for local authorities at the moment to move into preventive work or into other areas.

If we have one piece of legislation for adults, which has the duty, and another piece of legislation for children, which does not have it, my great concern is that children will slip down the priority list in this particular area. I am not saying that they will not be protected—that will be followed up—but proper assessment for under-five provision will slip down the priority level. It has to, because that is the only way that local authorities can manage their finances and priority ratings. I hope that the Minister and the Government will look again at this repeal. I think that the way forward is to look at the regulation and the framework and to get that into an accurate package, which would take us forward.

The other area that concerns me—this is a probing question—is those children who have additional needs and who need to be placed in under-five daycare so that their parents can work or develop skills. I am thinking in particular of children with, say, autism or similar developmental issues and am really trying to probe how this fits with the government amendment. At the moment, a local authority may provide funding for a place, but if the parent wishes to make additional payments for an extra quality of service, the local authority will not pay because that would be a mixture of private and statutory funding—even if the organisation providing that service is a voluntary, not-for-profit organisation.

I take some responsibility because I suspect that, in the past, I was one of the people who pressed for the principle of not mixing private and statutory funding, but I do not think I ever saw it coming to a position where, as a parent, you could not give added quality to children in need. The difficulty has arisen because some parents have objected to having to pay—one organisation I know in particular may have to close its doors because it cannot manage the quality of care that they need to provide for these difficult children. This is really a probing question: are the Government prepared to look at mixing or is it an absolutely sacred principle that private and public funding should not be put together? I also support the other the noble Baronesses who put the other arguments so clearly.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, this is an important debate about the role of English local authorities in securing early-years provision free of charge for young children and about sufficient childcare. In responding, I will also speak to government Amendment 240R.

The Government are as determined as other noble Lords that parents should have a wide choice of early education and childcare places, and that places are of the highest quality possible. Clause 76 will remove the requirement on local authorities to assess the sufficiency of childcare provision every three years. We recognise the concerns raised by my noble friend Lady Tyler and the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, and I hope that I can provide some reassurance.

There are two duties on local authorities relating to the sufficiency of childcare: the duty to secure sufficient childcare under Section 6 of the Childcare Act 2006; and the duty to make an assessment of sufficiency of childcare every three years under Section 11 of the same Act, which is what we have just been addressing. The first of these duties is paramount. The duty of the local authority to secure sufficiency of childcare remains in place; it is the other element that we are talking about here. We are clear that local authorities should take steps to ensure that parents can access the childcare they need.

To satisfy themselves that there is sufficient childcare in their area—my noble friend Lady Tyler is right—local authorities do indeed need to collect information on the availability of, and demand for, childcare. Our statutory guidance makes it clear that local authorities should report to elected members annually on the steps they are taking to address any gaps in childcare provision. The annual report should also be made available to parents, allowing them to hold local authorities to account for ensuring that there is high-quality, affordable childcare in their area. The noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, mentioned a simpler annual report. We are more in agreement here than perhaps it may have appeared from our initial discussions. There will need to be an assessment because those kinds of data are required, and there will need to be an annual report.

The decision to repeal the sufficiency assessment—that three-yearly, very lengthy document—was taken after public consultation. The majority of respondents supported the repeal and the proposals that local authorities should prepare and publish an annual report on the sufficiency of childcare. The noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, referred to that consultation and suggested that perhaps we did not ask whether the duty should be repealed. Perhaps I misunderstood her—it looks as if I did not—but the department did indeed ask this. The question was: “Do you support the repeal of Section 11 and the revocation of the supporting regulations?”. That was directly asked of people, and 62% supported it; only 10% said they did not.

The consultation took place between November 2010 and February 2012, and the Government published their response in May 2011; it is available on the Department for Education website. The feeling came through that what was needed was to ensure that there were sufficient places and that too much focus was perhaps going on this rather lengthy document, produced every three years, which required a lot of effort to put together and was not easy for parents to access, and so on.

No doubt in the first place the provision was made for the best possible reasons and I fully understand why it should be there, but the purpose is to try to secure sufficient childcare and to have a mechanism of putting pressure on local authorities to ensure that that happens. That is why the department is in favour of moving to an annual assessment and giving that annual report to the councillors who are accountable. I hope that noble Lords will be reassured.

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[Baroness Northover]

The noble Countess is right. As I read that out, I was thinking, “My goodness, that is a long consultation—a very, very thorough consultation”. No doubt I may find that it was not quite like that and, if so, I will inform the noble Countess in a moment. I hope that the substance of what I am saying provides some reassurance.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

It may be my lack of understanding, but I think that the concern is not that the assessment is being changed from the lengthy three-year bureaucratic document, with which I am familiar, but that the statutory responsibility has been changed to regulation. Is that correct?

[Baroness Northover]

Perhaps I may answer the noble Countess, Lady Mar. The consultation went from November 2010 to February 2011—which, I agree, is a much more normal length of time for a consultation.

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[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, with the permission of the Grand Committee, I will speak sitting down. I declare an interest as a trustee of UNICEF. My name is on Amendment 243 and I support all that my noble friend Lady Walmsley has said. I wish to add the following. Given that the last detailed research on this topic was carried out more than seven years ago, I believe that it is important for the Government to commission a study to estimate the number of cases of possession or witchcraft among children. Following the dreadful Victoria Climbié case and one or two other well publicised cases, these cases are clearly still arising. The Metropolitan Police have reported more than 81 cases over the past 10 years. I suspect that the position is worsening rather than improving.

The impact of being called a witch or of possessing evil spirits is traumatic. AFRUCA—Africans Unite Against Child Abuse—told the story of Amelia, the mother of young Luke, who has a mild form of epilepsy. She said that,

“when Luke was about three and a half, he had an epileptic episode at a church service.

The pastor noticed and immediately turned to the congregation and said, ‘Here is a manifestation of the devil. This boy is possessed by evil spirits.’

The consequences were immediate and very upsetting. I saw the older children shunned Luke and when he approached friends who were his own age and too little to understand what was happening I saw their parents calling them to come away from Luke. We protected him from knowing what was happening, of course, but I was angry and my husband was even angrier.

We tackled the pastor, and when he realised Luke had been experiencing an epileptic seizure he was initially a little argumentative, saying epilepsy could be a sign of possession, but we told him he needed to study his bible better. In the end he was ashamed and preached a sermon about the difference between epilepsy and witches. Our friends understood what he was talking about, but he didn’t actually retract the allegation”.

AFRUCA says:

“Accusing a child of being having harmful supernatural powers is dehumanising, leading to a process of moral exclusion as the child is henceforth viewed as less than human, evil, a criminal not deserving moral consideration. It opens floodgates to all forms of other abuses including infanticide. The child is, of course, likely to share these beliefs, a horrific experience”.

In 2010, UNICEF carried out a study: Children Accused of Witchcraft, by Aleksandra Cimpric. On pages 48 and 49, two of the key recommendations are:

“Promote legal reform to decriminalize witchcraft, allow for the prosecution of persons harming children and provide special protection to children in contact with the law”,

and:

“Raise awareness and educate legal professionals”.

What has been encouraging is that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, reported, a number of African countries have taken the UNICEF report and have made legal provision to protect children. We have not yet done so in this country.

This does not just affect churches, mosques or communities from Africa. Over the past 18 months, I and other noble Lords have heard from members of the Exclusive Brethren, a sect that split from the Plymouth Brethren in the mid-19th century. I have met children and young people who were told that they were evil and tainted and who were shut away from their community until they had “learnt to think right”. One former member told me that anyone who disagrees with the elders is pronounced evil and possessed of the devil. They handle exorcism by dismissing, shunning and excommunicating the child or young person in a practice known as “shutting up”. This group believes that children get evil spirits through contact with the outside world.

I met one young man who had been abused by an adult within his community. He reported the abuse and was then distressed and shocked when he was told immediately to get on his knees and pray for repentance and for the expulsion of the evil spirits. He subsequently left the Exclusive Brethren, but he said that it took him some years to recover from feeling ashamed and responsible for the abuse and to understand that he was not possessed by evil spirits. There is, therefore, a wider application than that commended by AFRUCA.

I reiterate the points made by my noble friend Lady Walmsley. This is not an attempt to curtail beliefs. This is solely about the protection of children, their families and those with whom they come into contact. It is time that the UK caught up with the many African countries that are way ahead of us in legislation.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I am going to find myself in the difficult position of disagreeing absolutely with the two noble Baronesses. I am surprised that they have not had the context, because much of what I hear sounds like the work that we did two years ago, when I chaired the Trust for London committee that looked at child safety issues in relation to witchcraft and children accused of being possessed by evil spirits. I spent two years working with AFRUCA, the Somali community, the Victoria Climbié Foundation and others looking at the issue. During that time, we managed to disentangle what was at first thought to be an issue of belief but what, as became clear and as the two noble Baronesses made quite clear, was not about belief but about child protection.

In all the examples I have ever heard, if proper attention had been given to present child protection legal enactments, all those children should have been properly protected by the existing legislation. I agree with the noble Baronesses that if that is not so, we will need something additional—but, as has been said, all the organisations that took part in the round table, except for AFRUCA, did not see the need for a change in legislation. What they saw a need for was the education of social workers who simply do not understand the issue, and for more work to be done with these communities.

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[Baroness Walmsley]

I thank the Minister for her comprehensive reply to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. I think we have succeeded in highlighting the issue. On Amendment 243, I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, and pay tribute to all her work on this subject.

It is quite clear that within the communities that are affected by witch branding, there are differences of opinion about what would and would not be helpful. None of us is saying that working with the communities and making them aware that this is child abuse is a bad thing. Of course it is a good thing. I just do not think it is quite enough for some people.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, talked about the existing law, as did the Minister. She said it is quite enough to catch people who abuse children in this way. What I am talking about is early intervention, if you like. Although once a child is physically abused, all kinds of laws have been broken and people can be charged on that basis, what I would like to get absolutely clear from the Minister is an acceptance that telling a child that they are possessed by evil spirits is child abuse. It causes the child enormous mental trauma, and you just do not know how that will affect them over many years. The Minister said a great deal about that amendment, so I will go away and read Hansard very carefully to try to find out whether there was an acceptance that simply telling a child before you lay a hand on them that they are possessed is child abuse.

The Minister mentioned a number of laws under which somebody might be charged with child abuse for doing that sort of thing, but I wonder how many cases there have been. How many people have actually been charged and imprisoned for that? Do communities and parents really understand that simply telling a child that is enough to qualify as child abuse, and that it should be reported and the child should be given special protection? Will my noble friend write and tell me what sort of guidance there is for social workers on this particular issue?

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and my noble friend Lord Storey and others who supported Amendment 246. My difficulty with what the Minister said is that you can charge and imprison somebody only when the case is reported. One of the major problems is the reluctance of parents to come forward and tell the authorities that the child is being abused, perhaps particularly if the abuse is happening in a place of faith instruction. The Under-Secretary of State for Children and Families, Edward Timpson, has been very open to discussions with me, as the Minister said. I am quite sure that he, like me, would like to iron out this sort of practice once and for all.

However, a voluntary code of conduct just will not do. Would a code of conduct do in the comprehensive school down the road? Would it do in the primary school round the corner? No, it would not. Parliament said a long time ago that a code of conduct for teachers was not good enough in those settings. I am afraid that it is not good enough in a place of part-time education, either. I shall undoubtedly keep on badgering Ministers about this until the law is implemented. A piece of legislation was passed, but it is no use if it is not implemented. It needs implementing in order to stop this. It is not going to be a magic bullet—I know that. Neither of my amendments would be a magic bullet, but they would contribute towards moving us to a completely different situation.

I will go back to Amendment 243. The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, talked about Africa. I am not suggesting that, just because a number of African countries have changed the law, things are all wonderful. They absolutely are not; they are horrendous. The fact is that it is very early days in those countries for the laws that have been put in place. When you have a situation where these beliefs and activities are as entrenched as they are in some of these countries—much worse than they are here—it will take years for the change in the law to have any effect. I do not accept that point.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

That is absolutely right, but it is not the law that will change what is happening; it is having a good childcare structure with basic legislation that protects children, and having people who understand that. That is why I think the law is not particularly helpful in Nigeria; it has been passed because it suits the Government’s purposes—perhaps I can say that here—but it will not protect children. We have a much better framework of protection here. If we have lists of children from different groups, and there are other groups we could name who need specific protection, it will take attention away from the others. We have to train people to look at all these very difficult areas—FGM is there, but it is a different issue and work is being done by the Trust for London on that—and understand the detail and how we train people across the board on these issues. I felt that I should say that I understand the African situation very well indeed.

[Baroness Walmsley]

I thank the noble Baroness for her additional comments. I am not saying that training is not a good thing; of course it is, but we need something additional. African countries that have changed the law need a much better child protection system—closer to what we have here—but we have a pretty good child protection system and we still have not succeeded in protecting these children. We need to make it absolutely clear that this is child abuse, that it comes under the law and that it will not be tolerated. I thank noble Lords for the passionate debate that we have had and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.