Taxation: Families

Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts

Thursday 17th January 2013 Lords Chamber

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[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

That this House takes note of the impact on families of changes to tax and benefits.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, when in the 1830s the Tory, Lord Shaftesbury, sought to limit child labour, mill owners insisted it was essential to the economy. Shaftesbury said that he refused to accept that the prosperity of Britain must depend on the labour and pain of its poorest children. The last Government lifted more than 1 million children out of poverty. With these cuts, some 300,000 to 400,000 children by 2015, and up to 1 million children by 2020, will now slide back down the snake into absolute poverty. I refuse to accept—the whole House will refuse to accept—that poor children must be made poorer still, so that the rest of us can, in time, become more prosperous.

Individual cuts seem modest, until you add them up. Can the noble Lord, Lord Freud, tell us whether the Government have published a cumulative analysis of the cuts since 2010? In its absence, I have tried. I especially thank Sue Royston of Citizens Advice and Howard Reed of Landman Economics for working through the statistics and the weekends, although any errors are of course my own. Let us remind ourselves that the Government froze the value of tax credits and child benefit, changed the taper rate, reduced the childcare component and, for some 200,000 families, increased working tax credit hours, which may cost them £40 to £50 a week on top. Next came the benefit cap, which hit families, especially in London, although my city of Norwich has 100 families affected by it. Housing benefit was reduced from 50% to 30% of private sector rents, so many now face serious shortfalls in local housing allowance; as do those facing the bedroom tax on alleged underoccupancy. From April, perhaps a quarter to one-fifth of working-age tenants of the housing association that I chair face HB cuts of £12 to £15 a week, as they have nowhere else to go.

Also in April come the localised council tax benefit cuts. Families who had not expected to pay council tax now face a poll tax of £5 or more a week. Benefit rises are to be capped at 1%. The bottom one-third of households will lose almost £5 a week as well as £15 per week, effectively, by 2015. The change from DLA to PIP will probably remove the lower-rate care element, worth around £20 a week, as well as making changes to carers’ benefits—all this before the arrival of universal credit, which will cut disabled children’s benefit from £58 a week to £27 a week. I could go on.

What is the overall impact? In my city of Norwich, which has a population of 135,000, these cuts will take £35 million a year from our poorest citizens and out of our local economy. What is the impact on families? By 2015, the poorest one-fifth of our people will have lost up to £2,000 a year. The more vulnerable families—those with younger children, or three or more children, in poor health, in poor housing or with disabilities—will suffer even greater cuts, of £40 to £60 a week, alongside, of course, severe cuts in public services. Take a working husband—a security guard on minimum wage—his wife, two children of three and six, living in, and now defined as underoccupying, a three-bedroom, £100-a-week council house. Citizens Advice calculates that whether he is in full-time work with in-work benefits, or loses his job and is fully reliant on benefits, either way that family will, by 2015, be losing £30 to £35 a week, even taking into account the tax changes. If the younger child, say, is disabled, they will lose £40 a week by 2015. If, however, by 2015 that family is on universal credit, they will be losing £50 a week if in work, and nearer £65 a week—unbelievably—if he is unemployed.

Why are the Government doing this? The Tories think it necessary and perhaps desirable. The Liberal Democrats, I think, find it necessary but perhaps regrettable. Their argument goes—I will list it and try to address these points—first, the welfare cost is unsustainable; secondly, it is creating welfare dependency; thirdly, welfare has to be cut if we are to cut the deficit; fourthly, it is not right that pay be limited to 1% while benefits rise at CPI; and finally, in any case, the rise in tax allowances offsets all this.

A fair summary, I hope, of Government views. Every point is false; every one. First, the welfare bill is not unsustainable. According to the DWP’s former chief economist, benefits took 12.5% of GDP under John Major in 1994, with 8% going to working age households. As of January 2012, benefit spend fell to 10.5% of GDP with only 5% going to working-age people. The driver of benefit spend is simply more pensioners getting better pensions. I welcome that, but poor children should not be made poorer to pay for it.

Next, in the Telegraph a fortnight ago Mr Duncan Smith asserted that tax credits and benefits created welfare dependency, when he knows that they make it possible for families to live on the same wage as that paid to a single man. A single parent, a Telegraph reader from Amersham in Buckinghamshire, wrote back on 3 January that she had brought up 3 sons while working part-time. Two are now at university and she is about to go into full-time work. She concluded:

“I object to Iain Duncan Smith’s suggestion that tax credits have made people lazy dependants who rely on hand-outs ... the tax credit has been a life saver”.

His welfare dependency; her life saver. His smear; her experience. I know whom I believe.

Next, the Government tell us that we have to cut welfare to cut the deficit, otherwise, it will be nurses and teachers—the usual rhetorical flourish. It is a matter of policy choices. It always has been and always will be. I will offer mine, although they are not necessarily those of the Labour party. While private pensioners enjoy more than £30 billion a year of tax relief, two-thirds of which goes to the better-off, while we cap the upper earnings limit, which saves higher rate taxpayers £11 billion a year, while we refuse—as my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours has reminded me—an ad hoc Lords committee, urged by my noble friend Lord Myners, on tax-avoiding personal service companies, and while millionaire earners see their tax rate fall to 45p at a cost of £3 billion, I think that there is money from those who can afford to pay.

Fourthly, we are told that as pay is limited to 1% so must benefits, which since 2007 are outpacing pay. Until 2007, earnings outpaced RPI benefits. Why else did pensioners demand that the state pension be linked to earnings not prices? Yes, since 2007, during the recession earnings have fallen behind inflation. Does that mean that we reduce benefits so that they do not keep pace with inflation either? In any case, it is a false contrast because many families with 1% pay increases also rely on tax credits, housing benefit or council tax benefit for a living income.

As the Child Poverty Action Group has said, this child is poor not because its mother is a lone parent but because she is a cleaner; this child is poor not because its father abuses drugs but because he is a security guard. Five million people are paid less than the living wage. Two-thirds of those benefits cited by Mr Duncan Smith go to households in work to ensure that work pays, as we all wish to see. However, to make the unemployed poorer, the Government will make all the working poor receiving benefit poorer as well. One despairs.

Finally, the Minister may say that raising the tax threshold significantly is the best way to support low-income working people—except that it really is not. Very many of the working poor are below the tax threshold, and others—the full-time cleaner or the security guard on the minimum wage—keep only 15% of that alleged gain because means-tested housing benefit and council tax benefit taper away 85% of the increase in tax allowance, and then the other cuts pile in.

Every justification used by the Government for these benefit cuts is untrue—every single one. If, in a final throw, the Government say that the public support them, that is because the Government, with the aid of some of the press—none of whom, I suspect, will experience these benefit cuts themselves—have peddled the view that the poor must become poorer to save the rest of us.

Do the Government know or care what damage they are doing as they finger the vulnerable, the fragile, the poor, the soon to be underemployed, the soon to be unemployed, the soon to be in severe debt, the soon to be evicted—and, yes, the soon to be hungry—and encourage those who are themselves just a rung or two up the ladder, also struggling, to blame not those above them, bankers and the like, but those below them for their struggle? That is ugly, cynical, and utterly indecent.

We must all refuse to use this language of welfare, with its dark shadows of handouts and dependency, stigma and scroungers, failure and fault. When we founded the NHS we also built social security—the roots of which go back to Lloyd George—the insurance of the social contract we make each with each other; a network of mutual social obligation. We pay in, and in need, we take out, as is our right.

It is social security. I calculate that two-thirds of our £205 billion social security spending is likely to come back to each of us in our own lifetime: when we have children, when we are sick and, above all, when we draw our state pension. It smoothes the volatility of our working lives, as it should.

Only a third of social security spending goes in means-tested benefits, perhaps to relieve other people’s hardship; two-thirds will come back to us, as payments on our insurance paid—exactly as you would hope and expect from a contributory social security system based on entitlement, alongside a decent safety net for those in hardship, which could so easily have been any of us in the past.

Let us reframe the debate: it should not be about welfare and dependency, strivers and shirkers—such morally ugly language. It is about social security, contribution and entitlement. When I look around my former council ward in Norwich I see children unable to go on school trips, mothers missing lunch to feed their children an evening meal, women pawning their engagement ring to pay for school shoes. I see a middle-aged couple who have not eaten for two days arriving at my local food bank. I see families fearful that as they cannot afford the rent of their council home from April they may become homeless—and the worst cuts are yet to arrive.

I ask this House today, how many of us here have suffered any cuts? As a comfortably-off pensioner I have not suffered a penny of cuts—and so I will not accept that it is right that poor children should be plunged deeper into poverty to spare all of us; that middle-aged couples should resort to food banks to spare us; that families unable to pay their rent because of underoccupancy should face eviction to spare us. We are not entitled to ask the poor and their children to carry these cuts for our benefit. It is profoundly wrong and I am ashamed.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting and important debate, and I am grateful to all those who have contributed. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, referred to the quality of the debate; there was something interesting in all the speeches, which is not always the case. I therefore thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for securing the debate.

I shall set some context for the debate before I try to deal with as many of the points raised as possible. The arguments for our programme of tax and welfare reform are well rehearsed. We have heard much discussion in the media, in Parliament and elsewhere on the welfare and tax policies that the Government have planned. However, I think that it is worth me touching on the rationale for our programme of reform.

We have already made significant progress in tackling the fiscal challenge that we faced when we came into office. We inherited the largest deficit in more than 60 years and, since then, welfare spending has risen from 11% of GDP in 2007-08 to more than 13% today, including pensions and working-age payments. In a constrained fiscal climate, this puts real pressure on key public services and is unsustainable. The deficit has now been reduced by a quarter, and we have created more than 1.2 million private sector jobs. Even if we play around with the small anomaly of those who are on skills training, there has been a huge increase in private sector jobs.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, raised a question about cumulative impacts, and I was fascinated by her sums on this. However, I need to point out that this Government publish impacts of benefit and tax changes alongside each Budget and Autumn Statement. That is something that previous Governments did not do.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Is the Minister acknowledging that the Government have not published a cumulative analysis of the cuts, benefits and tax changes since 2010? If he is so doing, which I think is what he has said, it is still done slice by slice. Can we hope that he will do so—will he give a commitment to do so in future?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, it is bluntly impossible to do a total cumulative assessment. I have looked at doing it, and you do not know what to put in and what to leave out. No one has done it in the past; it is not possible. Doing it year by year, as we do, is the best we can do—and it gives a fair view of what happens in a particular year.

I shall continue. While we are taking action to reduce the deficit, we have continued to support families by cutting tax for more than 24 million working people, lifting 2 million of the lowest-paid workers out of income tax altogether. Further freezes in council tax this year will help families with the cost of living by keeping the cost of council tax bills down. Here I pick up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, about localising council tax support. That is being done because it is at the local level where the need for particular support is best understood, and we have announced additional funding of £100 million to support that process. More widely, we are investing heavily in low-income families by supporting the most disadvantaged through every stage of their education.

On the question raised by my noble friend Lady Jenkin, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter, and my noble friend Lord Bates, the Government remain committed to recognising marriage in the tax and benefits system. That is as far as I can go today. On the point raised by the right reverend Prelate on child benefit, it will be completely removed only from families that include someone earning over £60,000, and 90% of families will continue to receive child benefit.

It is clear that decisive action is needed to control the damaged and hugely expensive welfare system that we inherited. Labour increased spending on benefits and tax credits by £75 billion and, in real terms, expenditure on all working-age benefits increased from £59 billion in 1997-98 to almost £95 billion in 2010-11, in today’s money. These increases are simply unsustainable. In tax credits, spending increased by £23 billion in real terms between the same two dates, which meant that nine out of 10 families with children became eligible for tax credits—a point made by my noble friend Lady Jenkin. In some cases, families could receive more than £70,000 in earnings and still be entitled. It is clear that, given this level of generosity, we could not protect child benefit and tax credits from the need to make welfare savings.

The Government have not shied away from acknowledging that tough decisions are needed, and we are committed to ensuring that savings measures are taken in the fairest possible way. That is why the 10% richest households will contribute most as a result of the tax and benefit changes that we are making. My noble friend Lord German inquired about that. Overall, as a result of recent changes, we may have reduced the marginal rate from 50% to 45%, but everyone in this House will be familiar with the impact of the Laffer curve. What really counts is how much total tax is taken from the richest; a quarter of all income tax is paid by the top 1% of earners, and the top 5% pay about £50,000. In practice, our changes mean that, overall, the richest will pay £1,000 a year each more in tax, not less, as has been claimed.

It is reasonable to expect the richest to pay their fair share, and it was equally important that we took action to ensure that people on benefits did not receive support that far outweighed the income received by many families who do not rely on benefits to get by. We have, for example, done away with the frighteningly high rates of housing benefit in the private rented sector, and from April this year we are applying an overall benefit cap so that households on out-of-work benefits no longer receive more in welfare payments than the average weekly wage for working households.

The year 2013 is pivotal for welfare reform. The introduction of universal credit and the personal independence payment in April will kick off the most fundamental reforms of working-age benefits for generations. I am pleased to tell my noble friend Lord German that we aim, still on time, to start universal credit on 29 April as a pilot, moving to a national basis in October. The universal credit system creates a seamless system of support to make work pay. People will be able to keep more of their income as they move into work, and it delivers a smoother and more transparent scheme that does away with the administrative difficulties created by switching between benefits and tax credits.

The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, made a particular point on universal credit and the self-employed. She made a point about the carry-forward, and I can tell her that I am aiming to introduce something for that to work efficiently; that will be in time for when the people who need it will be using it, so I hope that I can reassure her on that important point.

In the Autumn Statement, the Chancellor announced measures to tackle the rise in spending on benefits and tax credits by increasing the majority of working-age benefits by 1% for the next three years. The savings in that Statement amount to £2.8 billion in 2015-16. We are aiming here to strike the right balance between the support we provide and the need to tackle the spiralling cost of the welfare bill. Picking up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on disabled people, we are protecting those elements of ESA support, the disability elements of tax credits and the main disability benefits—DLA, carer’s allowance, attendance allowance and incapacity benefit. While I am discussing the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about disability—picking up his query on PIP—I suspect we will have a chance to talk about that more next week. There is not a difference: the 50 metre to 20 metre change does not create any substantial difference in entitlement. I will be able to go into that in some more detail.

Although the Government are committed to supporting working families, it would be unrealistic to exclude that group entirely from our savings measures. Although some families will be affected by the tax credit and child benefit changes, we need to put this into context: working households will gain by an average of £125 in 2013-14. Households will, on average, gain—no matter where they sit in the income distribution.

A lot has been made of the suggestion that 81% of the £1 billion or so raised by the tax and benefit changes will come from women. However, the analysis underpinning the 81% figure misrepresents the true impact of welfare reforms on women. It assumes that because the payment of child benefit is to women, its restriction hits women; but the reality is that in many cases it goes into households. The real figure, if you do that analysis, moves from the 80% or so figure to the 60% or so figure. The Government continue to support women and their families through their tax; 80% of households with children will see their tax credits increase. The across-the-board freeze in council tax bills will help families with the cost of living.

Picking up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, on PIP for carers, I remind her that we are committed to linking carers to receipt of either rate of the daily living component of PIP. That is the underlying reason why the impact assessment published in May 2012 showed that broadly the same number would be entitled to the carer’s allowance. Of course, continuing on her theme, where a carer lives in the same household as someone who is disabled, the benefit cap will not apply anyway, because that is one of the exclusions.

On childcare, we are spending an additional £200 million on universal credit and the focus of that is on families who work fewer than 16 hours a week. This investment will mean that 100,000 more families will be helped as they move into work. The Childcare Commission has been considering the cost of childcare in England and we expect its report to be published soon, so there will be further developments on that.

Turning to child poverty, by the relative income measure, the previous Government may have made some progress in moving children from out-of-work households out of poverty, but the effect on children from in-work families was considerably less. As my noble friend Lord Bates pointed out, work is the best route out of poverty. However, only 13% of the reduction in child poverty between 1998 and 2010, came from this fundamental route of families moving into work. That is where universal credit is so important: our estimates are that up to 300,000 more people will enter work as a result of the introduction of universal credit through improved financial incentives alone; 75% of the gainers from universal credit are in the bottom 40% of the income distribution.

Universal credit will make it easier for people to understand the level of benefit to which they are entitled—compared to the current complex system of benefits and tax credits—and significantly improve the take-up of unclaimed entitlements. That is a powerful tool in tackling poverty, because in 2009 it was estimated that 400,000 of the people living in relative income poverty were doing so because their families were not receiving all the benefits to which they were entitled.

I need to point out the importance of our White Paper on pensions, published earlier this week. The reforms will give a boost to the people who lost out on the additional state pension in the past, such as low earners and self-employed people. About 750,000 women who reach state pension age in the first 10 years after the single-tier pension is introduced will receive an average of £9 a week more in state pension because of the single-tier valuation. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, this Government are committed to protecting pensioners—much though she may resent it. We have legislated to restore the link to earnings for the basic state pension, and are committed to the triple lock.

On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, about relative beneficiaries, the people in the middle have been squeezed quite savagely in recent years overall. I refer her to the interesting article in the Financial Times suggesting that those brackets were back at the levels of 2002-03, whereas the bottom 30% had increased their income in real terms by 3% or 4%.

Our fundamental welfare reforms will transform the welfare system by 2017. The replacement of many of the current suite of income-related benefits and tax credits with our flagship reform—universal credit—will provide a streamlined and transparent scheme that will mean that 3 million families will be better off, on average, by about £168 a month. In April this year, the largest ever increase to personal allowances will benefit 24 million people and lift 1.1 million people out of income tax altogether. Our tax measures, coupled with a modern benefit system, will demonstrate that supporting families remains an absolute priority for this Government.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. In particular, I should like to congratulate my noble friend Lady Sherlock on her very impressive and superb debut on the Front Bench. It was an admirable wind-up speech and we are indebted to her. All our congratulations go to her. She absolutely rightly drew on the speeches of my noble friends who talked about carers, the self-employed and low earners, as well as disabled children and their families who are worried as their children become adults. My noble friends will allow me therefore not to repeat what she has already said. I want to take one or two minutes—I promise not to take any longer—to pick up on one or two points made by those sitting on Benches other than my own.

I welcome the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin. Like her, I support universal credit and, like her, I prioritise the support that we need to give to families. I was sorry that she reiterated the point that tax credits had created welfare dependency. As my noble friend Lady Sherlock said, the whole push of tax credits was to make work pay—a philosophy that goes straight through from tax credits into universal credit. I hope we do not get that argument repeated again.

As I expected, the noble Lord, Lord German, emphasised the value of the tax allowance rise. Of course, I am pleased about that. However, I remind the House of the effect on someone working full time on a minimum wage—the security guard I quoted. That tax allowance increase is worth £1.71 a week. That is before the £30 of other benefit cuts kick in. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, drew on the argument that the economy is in such a state and the deficit is so high that poor children must be made poorer so that the rest of us can be made more prosperous. He failed to address the point that the big increase in benefit expenditure—which, pace the noble Lord, Lord Freud, I welcomed—has been driven by the increase in pensions spending, and that the amount of GDP going to those of working age on social security benefits has fallen since 1994 from 8% to 5%. It is simply false to say that that expenditure is unsustainable. It is about political and moral choices. However, he is right, and I am delighted to hear him say this, that a living wage would reduce the welfare bill. I hope that we can count on his active support for that in future.

I especially thank not only my noble friends but also the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who made a brave, splendid and first-rate speech. He made points that I wish I had had the wit to make myself. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, from the Cross Benches, for his powerful, moral critique, which again reminded us of where our moral priorities should lie when we make these policy decisions.

The noble Lord, Lord Freud, referred to cumulative assessment. With the help of Citizens Advice and Landman Economics, we were able to work out pretty precisely—to within 10p or so—the total cumulative effect, since 2010, of the benefit cuts and tax changes. I did it for one family type—the security guard with a wife and two children. If we can do it over a weekend with wet towels and half a bottle of gin, I am quite sure that the Government can do it with the numbers of staff that they have in the Treasury. The answer is that the Government are not choosing to do it. They do not want to be shamed by us and others as to the effect of what they have done over time. There cannot be any other reason why the noble Lord, of all people, who has the utmost respect from the House for his integrity on these issues, and the Government continue to duck the consequences of their action by giving us the cumulative statistics today.

The noble Lord, Lord Freud, also mentioned the Laffer curve. At that point, the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, muttered into my ear, as others have done, that the Laffer curve, which says that the lower the tax rate the more you collect, has been discredited by almost every reputable economist in this country and in the United States. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Freud, knows that.

As to the noble Lord’s point about pensions, it is simply inappropriate of him to accuse me of not welcoming what is happening on the single state pension when before the general election I was one of those who wrote a pamphlet calling for it, in which I was fortunate enough to corral the willing consent of his right honourable friend Steve Webb to contributing for it and calling for it. I am absolutely delighted. The point I was making was not that I do not welcome the improvement in pensioner benefits. Of course, I do. I argued that it should not be paid for by making poor children poorer. That is the shame on this House.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Freud, sheltered behind averages, which of course fall in the middle of the third quintile. I was trying to describe the effects on the poorest quintile, particularly the poorest decile. He did not rebut one of those statistics.

A long time ago, the Reverend Thomas Chalmers, a Scottish Malthusian in 1819, said that character is the cause, comfort is the result. He had the excuse of not being able to read the early effects of an industrialising society and its profound effects on the poorest and the most vulnerable, and its children. What is our excuse? I beg to move.

Motion agreed.