Legislative Reform Measure

Baroness Harris of Richmond Excerpts

Thursday 22nd March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I would like briefly to support what has just been said by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, who is an admirable chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee. I am not sure about singing from the same hymn book—in Lincoln Cathedral we have two; some days it is ancient and modern and on others it is the English hymn book—but the point that she made is entirely valid.

I have served on the Ecclesiastical Committee for 42 of the last 48 years, during 36 of which I have been a church warden of three separate churches, so I know a little bit about these matters. I also served on the General Synod for 10 years. I approached this initially with a degree of real apprehension, because I was extremely concerned that the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury should not be seen—not that it was his intention—to be taking on the mantle of Henry VIII. That, in the Church of England, would not necessarily be the most appealing stance for an archbishop to take. The representations that we made—informally, as the noble and learned Baroness described—were taken on board. There was a degree of sensitivity over a series of controversial proposals that could well point the way to the Government of the day on another issue that is frequently occupying your Lordships’ House at the moment—but I will leave it at that.

The right reverend Prelate introduced this Measure with thoroughness and clarity, for which we are grateful. We have to beware, as I said in that very different context yesterday, of authority taking power unto itself. But the General Synod has a continuing role here and, as the right reverend Prelate has indicated, so does Parliament. Because of that, I am very glad to give strong support to our admirable chairman and I hope that, the committee having deemed this measure expedient, the House will not take a contrary view.

[Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the right reverend Prelate for a very clear exposition of this Measure. I echo the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, in saying how fortunate we are in having the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, as our chairman. She can indeed cut through obfuscation.

We on these Benches are extremely happy to deem this Measure expedient. My concern was exactly that expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, about the possibility of having Henry VIII clauses. I was concerned at the extent to which the preservation of power by way of special order made by the Archbishops’ Council could be regarded, in effect, as negating a sunset provision. However, I was happy to be assured that an order cannot be made by the Archbishops’ Council unless a draft of the order has been laid before both Houses of Parliament subject to the affirmative procedure. On that note, I am very happy to support this Measure.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, before I begin, I should draw the attention of the House to my registered interest. I am an ordinand in the Church of England, so I have an interest in these matters, but in fact my interest today is about the role of Parliament and not about the role of the Church.

I have no intention of opposing this Measure and am not seeking to get in its way, but I want to put a couple of points on the record. When I first read these provisions, on the face of it they looked rather like Henry VIII powers—in fact, they are Henry VIII powers. However, I am reassured by the work done and the comments made by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and I thank her and the Ecclesiastical Committee for the work they have done.

I can see that there are a number of safeguards. Obviously, there is a limitation on the types of Acts to which the Measure can be applied. Certain key Acts are excluded. There are a series of checks and balances to make sure that orders do not remove protections or take away rights and benefits. All of these are good safeguards which make this just about palatable at a time when, normally, I think we would not want to see these kinds of powers come through. It is worth having that on the record.

I was left with a question as to whether or not this House could annul an order. I cannot imagine it would wish to, but one never knows what these kind of orders are going to be until they come forward. It is a novel procedure. I heard what the right reverend Prelate said about the convention not applying, but I do not quite understand his argument. I think he made reference to the fact that it would not apply because the convention that this House does not strike down secondary legislation was about the relationship between us and another place. In fact, secondary legislation is not about the relationship between us and another place; it comes to both Houses from the Executive at the same time. Either House may strike it down; if so, it goes nowhere else.

One might argue that orders of this type would not be of the category of thing to which that convention would apply, should circumstances ever mean that it were applicable. However, I do not know that, and I do not know who does. I have thought to get some advice, but it really occurred to me only late this afternoon, so I have not given anyone the opportunity to think about it. I wanted to clarify that that was the nature of my question, and any light that could be shed on it would be appreciated.