Criminal Finances Bill

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 28th March 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Hamwee]

81: Clause 13, page 43, line 42, at end insert—
“(h) money or assets in any form which may be used as currency,”.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

Amendment 81 extends the debate we had immediately before the break with regard to the assets that may be liable to forfeiture. I understand the extension in Clause 13, which we have discussed, but I wonder why there should be any limits on what falls within the forfeiture provisions, because life changes. Items that come into common use change. Who had heard of bitcoins 10 years ago? That is the thinking behind my Amendment 81, which would extend cash, and Amendment 84, which would extend listed assets. The Minister in the Public Bill Committee in the Commons said of what is now Clause 14 that the Government did not want to use the power in new Section 303B(2) “indiscriminately”. I am puzzled what that term means. I can see that they would want to be careful about that use, but I do not see the relevance of discrimination.

In her letter of 17 March to noble Lords following Second Reading, the Minister referred to a balanced approach and said that allowing seizure of any type of property would not be proportionate. Again, that term puzzles me. Balance and proportion are relevant to the circumstances in which property can be forfeited—the conditions which have to be met, and so on—but are they relevant to the type of asset? We are in danger of allowing the owner of an asset to apply criminal ingenuity to remain a step ahead, finding new categories of property in which the proceeds of crime can be held. At Second Reading, the Minister said:

“As criminals adapt, so must we”.—[Official Report, 9/3/17; col. 1476.]


We should—but it would be even better if we were to anticipate and be a step ahead, not a step behind, because it is very hard to be in step precisely.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am looking for a yes or a no, but I do not think that I will get it, so I will write to the noble Lord.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Stevens and Lord Kennedy. Mobile phone credits for cash? I have led a very sheltered life.

The Minister said that the problem was in the phrase “may be used as currency”. But it seems to me that one can know that only through experience. That is why betting receipts, gaming vouchers and so on have now been included. I am really not sure that I follow the argument, although I will think about it after this evening.

I mentioned bitcoins not because I was suggesting that they should be included but simply as an example of how some time ago we did not know what was coming.

One’s living expenses include the expenses of dependants—I think that is what the Minister said. She is nodding. It is not quite within the normal meaning of the words, but I will accept that, and I am glad that it has been confirmed.

I do not think that I adequately followed the argument about the term “exceptional circumstances”. The Minister said quite a lot about the rest of the clause and of course I shall look at that after this evening. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Perhaps I may intervene to say that the regulations will be affirmative.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Hamwee]

107: Schedule 1, page 120, line 12, at end insert “of such minimum level of seniority as may be designated by the Secretary of State”

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, we have had groupings which have covered half a dozen big issues; Amendment 107 would amend the definition of SFOs— serious fraud officers—in Schedule 1, where we are told that an SFO officer is,

“a member of staff of the Serious Fraud Office”.

My amendment would add to that,

“of such minimum level of seniority as may be designated by the Secretary of State”.

Realistically, of course, this aims to exclude a very junior member of staff who has perhaps simply administrative duties and so on—I seem to remember the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie, saying, “It wouldn’t mean the janitor”. I want to make sure that it does not mean the janitor. The SFO officers are referred to for various purposes, and after all, staff include civilians. I hope that whoever is to reply to this from the Front Bench—it seems that it will be the noble Baroness, Lady Vere—will be able to reassure the Committee as to just what is meant in this context and why there is no obvious limit: or perhaps there is one somewhere else as regards what level of officer we are talking about. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

The noble Baroness’s amendment is obviously a probing amendment, and I hope that we will get a response from the Government Front Bench that clarifies the situation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I understand the need to broaden the scope but I cannot help but think that we have been told that there are a lot of organisations that could give responsibilities to their janitors. The point is that decisions on who is given responsibility to do what can be made by senior officers of the day in an inconsistent fashion. In most organisations that would be entirely reasonable but we are talking about very serious powers, so my amendment and my comments are not intended to be frivolous.

Of course, I shall not pursue this matter tonight, and indeed after two or three mentions of thanks for my careful scrutiny and, reading between the lines, thoughts of “I wish the noble Baroness would shut up”, I think that I probably will for tonight. As I said, it is not a frivolous point but I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 107 withdrawn.