Covid-19: Response

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Monday 27th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Brinton, for their detailed questions, which I will go through as speedily and thoroughly as I can.

On accountability during the Recess, there are long-standing precedents on this and we will obey them, as is normal.

On the arrangements for Spain, I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that there is a very thorough system of regular meetings to assess the exemptions on travel. This is done at several levels of government and detailed intelligence from the front line is provided to those meetings. However, the situation in many countries is fast changing, and the Spanish situation is a good example. The information we had at the beginning of last week was quite different from the information we had by the end of the week. Fast turnaround decisions are not a sign of panic or weakness; they are a sign that the system works and is working well. We are trying to be as flexible as we can and we respect the country’s desire to travel, but when the infection rate in overseas countries moves, we have to move quickly as well. Within individual countries, there is no way for us to control intra-country transport. It is therefore very difficult and challenging to have a regional exemption list. That is why we have not been able to give exemptions to the Balearics, and I say that with a personal interest in the matter.

Our guidance on face masks is based on trust. There is no compulsion and they are not mandatory. In some countries they are mandatory, but not in this country. That is why the science is so important to us, and it is one reasons that we may have moved behind some other countries. The guidance we now have on face masks is extremely clear. I pay tribute to the large and growing number of people wearing them. I believe this country is moving in the right direction.

We are concerned about shopworkers. USDAW makes a good case for the need to protect shopworkers who may be put in an awkward situation. That is why we work closely with the police to ensure that the right protections are in place.

I say a profound thank you to the people of Leicester, who have done an incredible amount in a difficult situation. The signs are that the prevalence of the disease has come down a long way in Leicester thanks to their commitment. The lessons we have learned include some of the most obvious lessons you could learn, but there is no replacement for local contacts and the involvement of local communities. However, there are hard-to-reach communities where our message has not got through and we need to do more to reach them. In particular, I am grateful to faith leaders in Leicester who are working with us on preparing for Eid and ensuring that the message on social distancing gets through in time for that important celebration.

Full details of the budget for NHS Test and Trace will be published when the time is right, and when that time arrives I will be glad to place a copy in the Library as requested.

I completely agree with the noble Baroness. Having an equitable distribution of the vaccine in this country and overseas is key to the Government’s policy. That is why we are working hard with the World Health Organization, GAVI and others to ensure that vaccines are shared as a global resource. We hope that a vaccine can be found, and the indications from Oxford are encouraging, but we recognise that vaccines for coronaviruses, particularly those affecting the respiratory system, are difficult. That is why we are making a massive investment in the test-and-trace programme and in therapeutics and why we remain vigilant over local lockdowns—to rid this country of this horrible disease.

Both noble Baronesses spoke about social care. I do not recognise the phrase used by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that the care sector has been “thrown to the wolves”. I find that an unhelpful characterisation. I say yes to regular testing, yes to PPE and yes to financial support—we have given £3.7 billion to local authorities to help them pay for the cost of Covid-19, and on 2 July we gave a further £500 million to the social care sector. We remain vigilant with regard to the financial resilience of the social care system and we are working very closely with social care providers on the ongoing costs of both testing and PPE, as well as the financial resilience of the entire sector.

On shielders, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, makes a very good case. The handling of those who need shielding is one of the most delicate challenges that we face. Those who through no fault of their own are particularly vulnerable to the effects of the disease are put in an invidious situation, and we are extremely grateful to all those who have gone through the hardship of extreme shielding during this long and difficult time. I take on board all her comments and extend my profound thanks to all those concerned. I will look into the question of the parcels that she raised in the debate last week. My inquiries are ongoing on that, and I will respond to her, as I promised to last week.

On the arrangements for travel, it is true that the current medical advice is that we are currently sceptical whether temperature testing is effective and therefore we have not imposed it.

On testing, it is a frustrating but unavoidable truth that a test today does not necessarily mean that you do not have Covid and that you may not display both the symptoms and contagiousness of Covid in the days ahead. That is why snap testing at airports cannot be a sure-fire and safe route for protecting the country, which is why we have to look at isolation as a way of protecting the country.

On the mandation of isolation, as in other matters to do with Covid, we apply a voluntary principle because we believe that trust is the best way to keep the public on side, and we have neither the legal nor the other resources necessary to impose mandation.

On the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, about the state of the testing programme, I reassure her that testing at home is not stopping and that NHS staff are regularly tested. There is a very clear plan, that plan is heavily resourced and we are continuing to invest in it with innovation, manpower and legal support where necessary.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

We now come to the 40 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that both questions and answers be brief so that I can call the maximum number of speakers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The Secretary of State has asked Public Health England to review the logging of death statistics; we await the review’s results.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

Lord Rogan? We will move quickly on to the noble Lord, Lord Balfe.

[Lord Balfe (Con) [V]]

My Lords, on three occasions today the Minister has said that, if you have a Covid test today, you are not guaranteed to not have the disease tomorrow. In that case, what on earth is the purpose of having the test system at all? Secondly, the NHS is not functioning properly. Bearing in mind the precedents of my noble friends Lord Deighton and Lady Harding, would it be a good idea for the Minister’s department to appoint a specific person to get the NHS up and running again, as foreseen by my noble friend Lord Ribeiro in his perceptive question?

[Lord Bethell [V]]

My Lords, we use the tests we have got because they are the tests we have got. The way in which the disease manifests itself is not, I am afraid, something that I can negotiate with. We do what we can, but I emphasise that an unfortunate feature of this disease—and many others—is that it harbours itself silently in our bodies and manifests itself both to infect and be diagnosed only when it is ready. That is a simple fact of life. However, the testing regime has a profound impact on the spread of the disease by identifying those who have some form of symptom, even if it is a quiet one. I pay tribute to Sir Simon Stevens, who is working hard to get the NHS back to business as usual and is having a profound impact on the issue.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this business has now elapsed. I apologise to the four speakers who did not have time to put their questions.