Baroness Fox of Buckley
Main Page: Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-affiliated - Life peer)
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Birt, to reflect on the equality implications of this suggestion of a special treatment service for those seeking assisted death. Following on from the previous contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, it seems to me that everybody would want, if they are a patient or for their loved ones, a personal, state-funded navigator. But maybe for care, those people on trolleys, waiting for operations, or trying to find their way into the care system would all say, “Can we all have one?” If we do not afford every patient in the country a personal navigator, is that not an unequal access to services? It seems a two-tier system, and one that I think the public would not approve of.
On another issue, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Birt, to detail the workforce demands that this service would require from the NHS, following on from the excellent contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Stevens. I note that the assisted dying help service—which, by the way, would be awarded significant regulatory powers by these amendments that would not be subject to approval by Parliament—would have the power to set training and qualifications for practitioners. That seems like a blank cheque. I would like to know what the skill set of a navigator would be and who decides that. In all seriousness, this whole new shadow service being set up, with its own qualification system and recruitment, is a bit worrying. We are not sure who they are going to be.
My final query is that I know that a lot of the Bill’s supporters are frustrated and have raised problems with some of the amendments that have been tabled on the basis that they would somehow create bureaucratic, preventive barriers to people who genuinely want to afford themselves an assisted dying service. In other words, there is an attempt to overengineer the process. Therefore, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Birt, on this creative attempt at cutting red tape. However, on these amendments, we all know that mandated timelines can mean shortcuts that could make the process unsafe. Could he comment on that?
Speed and process-driven decision-making are risky in any instance but, where careful assistance and safeguarding are contested, it seems rather dangerous that panels would have to decide within two days of referral, even sitting over the weekend or bank holidays to make decisions. By the way, I think we should apply that to everyone in the NHS: they should do operations and doctors’ surgeries should be open over weekends and bank holidays. I wish the courts would sit over bank holidays and weekends, because then we would not have to get rid of jury trials, allegedly. That would mean that a referral on a Friday evening would have to be decided by a Monday. How would a panel have time to investigate and read everything thoroughly? Surely it would just end up skimming things.
I also really worry about the reflection period being cut to 24 hours, when experts warn that initial depression after diagnosis, which is completely understandable, might well be temporary, treatable and certainly remedial. It could last a few weeks but then be replaced with a more positive attitude. In fact, the CEO of Mind told the Lords Select Committee that they have
“gone to the brink, have come back and have then been able to say three or six months later, ‘I’m so glad that that did not happen’”.
All I am saying is that saying, “Oh we’re being really efficient; we’re going to make sure that your reflection is cut to 24 hours so that you can get what you want”, might well mean that you do not get what you would have wanted if you had had a bit longer to reflect.
Lord Goodman of Wycombe (Con)
My Lords, there is an unreality about this debate that gives rise to a question for the sponsor of the Bill and the Minister. The unreality is this: the noble Lord, Lord Birt, has made the case for his amendments, and my noble friend Lord Harper and others have made the case against them, but there is hung on this whole debate an assumption that the NHS will deliver assisted dying. I remind the Committee that there is no guarantee of that in the Bill.
If noble Lords would kindly turn to Clause 41(4), they will see that the only reference to the National Health Service is:
“Regulations under this section may for example provide that specified references in the National Health Service Act 2006 to the health service continued”,
et cetera. That is the only reference to the NHS in the Bill. We do not know whether the NHS will or will not deliver assisted dying services. It is an extraordinary weakness in the Bill.
Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)
I am sure that the noble Lord and others will find other ways of asking the same question. I refer to my earlier answer.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
I honestly believe that noble Lords are asking this question in good faith. I reiterate to the Minister—maybe she can think about this and come back—that we are being asked to make a decision about a huge change in healthcare provision, staffing and money, and the nature of what the NHS is. We are not trying to catch the Government out. We simply want to understand. Nobody could vote for this—even if you supported it, you could not vote for it. Can the Government please tell us, even if not now, what the implications will be if we vote for the Bill?
The Labour Government would say that the NHS is the most important, precious jewel in the crown, that nothing should damage it, and that we had to sacrifice an awful lot to save it only recently. I do not then want to vote for a Bill that is going to upturn the nature of the NHS inadvertently because the Government say they are neutral and cannot tell us otherwise. That is a big risk—risking the NHS, so that they do not have to answer. Even if the Minister cannot answer, we have to have that question answered; otherwise, we cannot seriously be asked to vote for the Bill.
Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)
I repeat that I am happy to write to noble Lords further on this point. I do not think that Members are going to move away from this point, so I am very happy to do that.
The noble Lord, Lord Gove, asked whether the assisted dying help service could be set up through statutory instrument, and I am happy to write to him to clarify that point. I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on the point of the constitution. That is the most straightforward way to deal with this.
With the undertaking that the Government will write on the points that have not been addressed, I hope noble Lords will understand that, on the areas that I have not raised, we cannot confirm that the amendments are workable. That is the point I must make. With those comments, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Birt (CB)
The one issue that unites the whole Committee is that we have to have an effective service of palliative care in this country. The data in Australia, which varies from state to state, tells us that somewhere between 70% and 90% of people who come forward already have palliative care.
The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, talked about navigation. It is a complex process, even in the Bill as it stands. If you analyse the likelihood, you will find that it will probably take, without the right process involved, 30 to 60 days, which is completely inappropriate in the context of the Australia experience. By the way, the navigator is an administrative role to help the person manage a complex system with multiple practitioners, who themselves have real authority.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
To clarify, I am sure the noble Lord knows people who have tried to get a hip replacement or a wide range of other medical treatments. It is the most complex process that you could ever go through. Many people are vulnerable and could do with a navigator. Does he understand the two-tier nature of appointing a navigator in one instance and not in another? This follows on from the earlier question from the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. Can the noble Lord see that anything that seems to give preferential treatment to those seeking assisted dying over those who are suffering pain from a bad hip or who have a rare cancer and are terminally ill would cause political problems? Immorality might be part of the issue there.
Lord Birt (CB)
Believe it or not, I have had cause, at various times in my life, to navigate the NHS, as probably everybody in this Committee has, and of course it is very difficult. However, when you go into A&E, you effectively do have a navigator. I do not think this is about the hip operation example; it is about people in a genuine emergency situation.
Lord Markham (Con)
As I said, these are not people who want to die; they are people who absolutely want to live. The only reason they are entering into this process, and the only reason they would be eligible—
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
I completely sympathise with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Markham, that these people do not want to die; they want to live. Would he then agree with some of the amendments that I tabled last week and spoke on? If, for example, they want to die and are then diagnosed with a terminal illness, that would be relevant to not allowing them into the process; that is, they want to die, and then the trigger of terminal illness allows the state-sanctioned administration of lethal drugs so that they can commit suicide, which is why people have raised problems about suicide ideation and mental illness. I therefore hope that the noble Lord will back some of the amendments on safeguarding that I tabled.
Lord Markham (Con)
The noble Baroness is talking about a slightly different circumstance where there are prior reasons, which could be mental health or other reasons, and why that could be a cause. What we are talking about here is basically the criterion on which you can first be assessed for assisted dying, which is, of course, that you have been diagnosed in the first place. To the point that, of course, people might then live longer, my experience is that they are delighted by that. Just because they have been assessed as being able to have assisted dying does not mean that they will take the medication. Again, evidence shows strongly that they will take the medication only right near the end when the pain, the loss of dignity or whatever the reason is becomes unbearable. My experience is that those people would be delighted if it was a misdiagnosis, and if they are fortunate enough to be living 30 years later, as per some of these examples, that would be fantastic. Of course, they will not have taken the medication. The point is that they take it only right at the end where there is no other choice, so to speak.
Within that, accepting that these are the people we are talking about, of course there are all sorts of different motivations why, when they are unfortunately at the point where they are looking at such a death, they might want to go ahead with it. Research shows that there are multiple reasons; it is impossible to put it down to just one. Loss of autonomy, less ability to engage in enjoyable activities, loss of dignity, loss of control of bodily functions, burden, inadequate pain relief or finances are all part of the reasons. They are all part of the research, and, on average, you will find that there are three or four reasons to do it.
So it is quite wrong to say, “No, we’ll only allow you to go ahead with this if you only have that single motivation”. As I said before, they would rather not be there in the first place, but given that they are in that unfortunate circumstance, surely they should be allowed the choice of why they wish to die.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
The way the noble Lord has put the question to me means that, plainly, this would be because of the illness, would it not? I want an assisted death because the illness is going to kill me. That seems quite a bad example.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
I appreciate that the noble and learned Lord is saying that we have covered a lot of this ground before, but there is one reason that people keep coming back to similar threads. The noble and learned Lord has in many instances said, “I’m listening to you. I’ll think about that”, and nothing happens. It is not reassuring and there are different ways of approaching this. I thought I had made some inroads. The noble and learned Lord was quite positive about the question of motivation being relevant.
A patient arrives at the doctors and says, “I’ve got a terminal illness”. The doctor says, “Why do you want an assisted death?” The patient says, “I’m costing my kids a fortune—their inheritance. The care home costs tens of thousands of pounds. I’m a burden”. The noble and learned Lord just suggested to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that you would say, “That’s your choice”. As in an earlier discussion in relation to the NHS, we are talking about NHS doctors, whom you would think would say, “Let me have a chat with you about that” and challenge them. They cannot just say, “If that’s what you want, carry on”.
All those examples I gave—I will not go over the millions of better ones used in the past—show that this undermines autonomy and suggests that the state is indifferent to somebody, in effect, asking for help in a different way but the form it takes is, “I might as well have an assisted death”. If you listen to them, they might be asking for something else that the state can intervene and help them with, whereas we just go, “Assisted death? We can provide that. Any of that other stuff you want, like financial help or help with loneliness and all that—we can’t afford that. That’s not happening, but assisted dying? You’re on your way”. That is why we are worried, and it is why these amendments are worth taking seriously. The noble and learned Lord needs to come back with written amendments that will reassure some of us so that we do not keep repeating ourselves.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
That was not really an intervention; it was just a statement. I should have said to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that, as I said last week, I will make an amendment so that the question of why will be asked, but I do not depart from the proposition that autonomy should be the leading reason for it. We disagree about that, and the House can reject that view on Report, but I am explaining what my position is.