Conduct Committee

Baroness Fox of Buckley Excerpts

Wednesday 5th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I offer my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, on restoring some sanity. But time is limited, so plaudits are postponed. Instead, let me raise my reservations.

I am especially disappointed at the replication of existing rules on bullying and harassment, which are unfairly lumped in with sexual misconduct. What is more, all three are singled out as especially egregious, as we have heard. We are left with definitions of bullying and harassment that are unduly subjective, explicitly based on the perception of the person experiencing the conduct. That conduct can be one unintended isolated incident that may be “hidden or insidious”. Surely, we can see the dangers of such vagueness in the potential for inciting unjust accusations. For example,

“a person may also be harassed even if they were not the intended ‘target’ of harassment”.

This perversely creates a non-victim victim and facilitates weaponising accusations in bad faith—accusations impossible to disprove.

Am I being paranoid? Sadly, many of our public institutions, from universities to the Civil Service, are littered with recent examples of individuals accused and disciplined for bullying or harassment, based on offence taken to words or opinions due to the feelings of victims. But, subsequently, it has been revealed by appeals or employment tribunals that the allegations themselves—the very disciplinary processes—were the real perpetrators of bullying and harassment. Employers have been forced to apologise and pay damages, but this redress is not open to those found guilty by this code. I am glad the committee concedes

“the significant toll that investigations can have on members”.

So often, the process is indeed the punishment, as is evidenced by the hell to which those such as fully exonerated Professor Jo Phoenix or the Buckingham University vice-chancellor James Tooley can testify.

When the committee concludes that a minor-case procedure can now be used—guess what?—bullying and harassment are excluded from the proportionate response. Why? It is implied it is related to power imbalances. Interestingly, in the definition of bullying, we are told that power can equate to coercion through fear of intimidation. Fair point. But can we acknowledge that we live in a society that valorises victimhood—a cancel culture that promiscuously demonises others by labelling them as bullies and harassers? As such, the real power can reside in the hands of would-be accusers, because even the threat of an allegation of bullying can be career or reputation destroying. It is certainly intimidating—I am not even sure about saying this here, to be honest. I am not sure that denying the accuser the right to cross-examine their accuser helps, so I do have some sympathy with the amendment from the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham.

Finally, the review deals intelligently with the distinction between parliamentary and non-parliamentary conduct and the need to ensure that expression of views and opinions falls outside the code’s remit. But there seems a fudge on social media, as we have heard. I am worried about the recommendations that text should be written that will state in terms what activity on social media may be dubbed parliamentary. What will that text say? This, combined with the way that definitions of bullying and harassment include that both can happen online via social media, means that, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has indicated, this could be a Trojan horse for dragging public non-parliamentary speech into scope. Can the noble Baroness offer reassurances that this is not the case? I am asking for a friend, of course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Manningham-Buller (CB)]

Well, we have had complaints in this area before, which we have acted on, from information from people involved.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, that the behaviour code was meant to cover everybody. I hope that I have answered the question on politics. The rules do not constantly expand; actually, they have retreated on this one. By removing non-financial aspects, we have reduced them.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that I have written down “fudge”, and I cannot remember why. It was her word, not mine, so perhaps the noble Baroness could remind me what the question was.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

That was specifically on social media. The noble Baroness was not clear, but she has since clarified.

[Baroness Manningham-Buller (CB)]

I hope the noble Baroness is content with what I have now said.

Lord Hodgson, with whom I have had a helpful correspondence, talked about the direction of travel moving towards the noble Viscount’s possibility. He also mentioned the tension between facing two ways. That is absolutely recognised, as I said in my opening speech, and we have tried to bridge that gap.

I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on social media. The view of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, that we have just dealt with a playground scrap is certainly not my view, and I also see problems with open hearings—particularly if, at the end of the day, the person concerned is found to have been innocent, as working on the presumption of innocence is very important. Equally, I also agree that where mediation can be achieved, it is infinitely preferable. However, I will not recommend to my successor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, that he seeks to abolish himself—but again, that is a matter for the House.

The noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, raised a point which other Peers had not mentioned about Standing Order 68. All the committee is saying is that, should the House, and should the usual channels and the Privileges Committee, decide that this was no longer tenable, complaints under the behaviour code would still need not to be debated, but complaints of, say, financial impropriety could be, if the House wanted to go down that route. But I say to the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, that the committee is not asking for that; the committee is just raising it as something, following the Lord Lester case, that the House might want to consider.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, was concerned about appendix B—as were many of the rest of your Lordships—which has all the definitions of sexual harassment, and so on. Those definitions stand as part of the behaviour code. They are not a matter for this House to change, and the commissioner will refer to them when making investigations under those headings. I have read out the bit from the Equality Act to try to reassure her there, and I have commented on social media.

Recruitment of independent members of the committee is entirely open, and the sort of person the noble Baroness describes, who she would regard as having more common sense than an HR person, can easily apply if they wish to do so. But at this stage, I would really like to say, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, said, that the external members of the committee offer real help and value to us in our deliberations. I think that we should be extremely grateful to them, and I regard that as important.

The noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, makes an important point. I acknowledge that going through this process is distressing and concerning for even the most robust of us. Therefore, as regards giving support, we have specified in the new code that people can bring friends; they should be supported throughout. They could bring one Peer—not a great gang of them—or one or a few colleagues. But we recognise that where possible, we have to be compassionate, and want to be, to people who find themselves in this position, certainly until they are found against.

I hope I have answered the intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Swire, on whether we can look at ensuring that the damage done by being investigated is not made public. The commissioner goes through a preliminary assessment then has to decide whether there is enough evidence that there may be a case to answer, and at that stage, things begin to become more public.

I hope I have covered all noble Lords’ comments, but I thank your Lordships very much for the useful—