Conversion Therapy Prohibition (Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity) Bill [HL]

Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee Excerpts

Friday 9th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I commend the discussion that has taken place thus far and the wide range of views that have been put forward. I am concerned about the ambiguity in this Bill and its vagueness; although it is short, its reach is extensive. The implications for free speech, freedom of religion and parenting are quite chilling.

There is a danger that this Bill will create a new orthodoxy and a whole category of opinions that must not be uttered, at the risk of criminal conviction. Supporters of a new law in this area have urged the UK to imitate the legislation in Victoria, Australia: the Change or Suppression (Conversion) Practices Prohibition Act—the same terms that are found in the Bill before us.

One of the enforcement agencies—yes, enforcement agencies—in Victoria is the Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission. Its list of what is considered illegal under the Act includes:

“a parent … refusing to support their child’s request for”

puberty blockers. It also says that

“not affirming someone’s gender identity”

is an illegal practice. Press reports say that parents of gender-confused children are holding clandestine meetings, living in fear of prosecution for trying to get help for their children. The Victoria commission has even issued guidance on how to pray. It says that prayers that talk about a person’s “need to repent” are likely to be illegal.

Apparently, that is what supporters of the Bill want here too. The co-founder of the Ban Conversion Therapy campaign, Jayne Ozanne, says a ban must cover “gentle, non-coercive prayer”. Another founder, Matthew Hyndman, says it must tackle the “pernicious power of prayer”. I was reflecting on that very offensive phrase when I came home from Holy Communion on Sunday, where those present heard the invitation from my minister:

“Ye that do truly and earnestly repent you of your sins, and are in love and charity with your neighbours, and intend to lead a new life, following the commandments of God, and walking from henceforth in his holy ways”.


I thought to myself, is that going to be allowed under this new conversion therapy Bill?

One of the central tenets of Christianity is the need to repent. That is universal; it applies to us all. Is that now going to be challenged or likely to be illegal, as the Victoria commission said? I find that very chilling indeed.

Reference was made to the Church of England document that came out yesterday. It is worth looking at, because it states a difference between conversion therapy—physical and psychological coercion, which I think we are all against—and conversion practice. It says that the fluidity of definition is problematic. It raised concerns about boundaries, particularly in consideration of what conversion practice is, as opposed to conversion therapy. That is a very interesting point.

Further, the Bill does not require any proof that the accused used, for example, threatening, abusive or insulting words. Even the most gentle words can be criminalised, so long as a court can be convinced that to you “aimed” your words at a person—those are the terms in the Bill—and that your words demonstrated “an assumption” about the preference of one sexual orientation or gender identity over another, and that your intended purpose was to “suppress” someone’s expression of orientation or identity. The court has to read your mind about all of these things. Despite the fact that no harm is caused, intended, likely foreseen or even foreseeable, you can be convicted and face a fine up to the maximum level, as has been pointed out.

According to the Bill, the practice would also have to demonstrate an assumption that any sexual orientation or gender identity is inherently preferable to another. Quite apart from questions over what that would look like or how it would be shown, it is a very broad test. It could be met by anyone who believes that being male or female is tied to biology and who rejects the idea of gender identity. I note that this gender-critical belief is protected by equality and human rights law. There are many of that opinion in this House, and certainly many outside of it.

It is clear that an offence looking at people’s assumptions is getting into the realm of examining whether their thoughts and attitudes are acceptable. It is very dangerous territory, and I urge the House to reject this Bill.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: Follow-up Report (European Affairs Committee)

Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I, too, thank all members of the committee under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Jay, for the many hours of work which have brought us not just the initial report but all the previous work too.

When reading the report, it struck me again how the announcement of the Windsor Framework was so badly mishandled. There was something seriously wrong in government communication when they sold the Windsor Framework in the way they did. How much better would it have been if the Prime Minister had said, as this report says, “I believe this is an improvement on the protocol, but significant issues remain”? My assessment is that, if that had been the announcement, Ulster people would have said, “Fair enough. At least progress has been made”, but instead we were told that it was the best deal ever thought of.

As the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, said, Northern Ireland is a small-business economy, and that is not really dealt with under the Windsor Framework. The trusted trader scheme deals with large retailers, which is helpful, but it does not deal with small businesses. I agree with the noble Baroness’s point in relation to that and about the need for information, which is important. It did not have to be this way: the Alternative Arrangements Commission brought forward a range of ways in which all this could have been dealt with, but it was decided not to go down that road.

I also underscore what the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, said about what has been going on recently. Advertisements have been taken out in Scottish newspapers from horticulture companies saying that they cannot send goods to Northern Ireland. There was also the shocking announcement advising customers to book in early for the passenger ferries from Cairnryan to Northern Ireland so that they can deal with border controls.

To ease the Minister’s response to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, on why the Secretary of State was listening to just one party—of course, I am no longer a member of the Democratic Unionist Party—it was because the other parties all wanted the protocol rigorously implemented and could see no difficulty with it, despite the obvious problems. My noble friend Lord Dodds made that point. We were also told that no party should have a veto. I was kept out of office as First Minister for three years, not 18 months, by Sinn Féin, and I have very little recollection of many voices from this place pointing out that it was a denial of democracy, as it very much was, or dealing with constitutional issues.

I have used up all my time. I commend this report and wish the Government well in the investment conference. We have young, bright, skilled people in Northern Ireland, and I hope that the conference is very successful.