Leaving the EU: Extension Period Negotiations

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2019 Westminster Hall

[Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to take part in the debate, although I feel that it has been something of an internal Conservative party discussion. To sum up for the Minister, I do not think his colleagues are very happy. It is a pleasure, too, to follow the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant). I have a great deal of time for many things he said. Perhaps with the exception of the Minister, most hon. Members here in Westminster Hall agree that the Government have mishandled negotiations and served up a deal that is unsupportable by a majority in the House.

The hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley) used some memorable phrases. He talked about the situation being a “catastrophe” and “stupidity”, and said “the Government are tired”. He said that it is a “Brexit of the shadows,” that there is a “cult of stamina,” and that we have a “wreckage of a Government decaying before our eyes”. That is pretty damning from a fairly new MP about the one job on which the Prime Minister said she should be supported: delivering Brexit. That is what Conservative MPs think about it. It is a pretty incredible situation for us to have reached.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez). Although I did not agree with everything she said, I found the manner in which she said it, the tone she used and the considered way she formed her argument quite refreshing. It is not the way these discussions have often been carried out in this place and outside. If we could have had a bit more of that kind of discussion, perhaps we would have avoided getting to where we are, three years after the referendum.

The hon. Lady spoke of her maiden speech, which I do not think I caught. She made me think of my maiden speech nearly 10 years ago, in 2010. I remember speaking about cuts to education and about serious crime, and I promised that I would always put my constituents first, which is something that is felt by everybody who gets elected to this place.

I regret some of the comments that have been made. I think the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Mr Clarke) said—I wish I had written it down, because I cannot remember the exact words he used—that we despise our constituents if we do not happen to agree with some of them on Brexit. I find that unhelpful, and it misrepresents the relationship we have with our constituents, which is absolutely one of respect and understanding. We attempt to represent the whole of our constituencies, even though they are inevitably divided on this issue at the moment.

[Mr Simon Clarke]

This is really important. Every constituency in the Tees valley voted to leave by more than 60%. In some cases, it was nearer 70%. That was a very clear mandate to leave. Of the six Tees valley MPs, I am the only one who is voting to leave the European Union and trying to deliver on the referendum mandate. Can the hon. Lady inform the House what she is doing to support any meaningful exit, or is she in fact determined to prevent it?

[Jenny Chapman]

In fact, my constituents in Darlington did not vote by more than 60% to leave the European Union.

[Mr Simon Clarke]

Can the hon. Lady give the percentage?

[Jenny Chapman]

Fifty-six. My constituency boundary is different from the borough boundary, as the hon. Gentleman probably knows. Nobody really knows what percentage of my constituents voted to leave, but that is not really the point. The fact is that, like all hon. Members present, a large number of my constituents wished to leave the European Union, which is why I voted to trigger article 50. I campaigned to remain. I believed that being part of the European Union would serve this country better in the future than leaving it, but I promised—as did many of my colleagues—to respect the outcome of the referendum. I have done that, and I voted to trigger article 50. I did not agonise about it; I saw it as my job and duty, and I did it with a clear heart. I then stood to be re-elected in 2017, as did we all, and I said that the kind of Brexit I wanted was something that at the time we all referred to as a soft deal. I would have voted for that. We would have left the European Union had that been on offer, but it never has been.

There was no deal until very recently, and we now find ourselves with something that the hon. Gentleman will not support, so I do not quite understand how he can have a go at me for not supporting it. It seems that no hon. Members present, apart from the Minister, want to support the existing deal.

[Mr Simon Clarke]

Will the hon. Lady give way one more time?

[Jenny Chapman]

Oh, one more time. Go on.

[Mr Simon Clarke]

Can I clarify that the Labour party manifesto is clear about leaving the single market and the customs union? It was clearly implied in the Labour manifesto that freedom of movement would end, and that there would be a free trade policy.

[Jenny Chapman]

We are saying that following the referendum and the general election, we need to have a close, collaborative relationship with the European Union. We want the benefits—as were promised by the then Secretary of State—of a customs union and the single market. I do not know—perhaps the Minister can tell us—how we achieve such benefits, particularly of a customs union, without being in a customs union. How do we get frictionless trade? The hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster is completely right to say that we will not get frictionless trade via a customs union alone, but we sure as hell cannot have such trade without one.

There is not a customs border between two different jurisdictions anywhere on the planet that does not have infrastructure. That really gets to the heart of this issue. Despite all this stuff about alternative arrangements, no one has been able to tell me what alternative arrangements we could put in place that would avoid infrastructure. We talk about Northern Ireland, because there are very obvious reasons why we want to maintain an infra- structure-free border there, but the same problems would arise at other ports of entry.

Alternative arrangements just do not exist. If somebody could persuade me that alternative arrangements could be put in place that would mean we do not need a border, it would be a really interesting conversation. If we could leave a customs union without infrastructure, and Ministers showed how that could be done, I would be obliged to seriously consider voting for that. However, that case has never been made, and alternative arrangements have never been outlined. We have never seen an example of how they would work. Nobody is persuaded, which is one of the reasons why we find ourselves where we are.

It struck me that hon. Members, particularly the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire, object to the Prime Minister’s suggestion that we should have a customs union or another vote. I understand where he is coming from—he is being completely consistent. He thinks we are being offered a customs union and a confirmatory vote, but one of the problems that the Opposition have with the Prime Minister’s speech yesterday is that but we do not think that is what is being offered. The lack of clarity and the attempt somehow to speak slightly differently to people who have different perspectives is one of the reasons we find ourselves in this position. There is a lack of trust, a lack of faith and a lack of confidence that this Prime Minister will be able to see the deal through. I find myself wondering—I am sure I am not alone—whether we will hold a vote on the Bill in the first week of June. It would be true to form to get quite close and then for the Government think better of it and withdraw the proposal—in the end, we would not get to vote on it.

I want to give the Minister sufficient time to respond to questions, particularly those from the hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster on our preparedness for a no-deal Brexit. Given everything we have learned from listening to industry, I venture to guess that we are nowhere near ready to leave without a deal. We do not have the infrastructure, IT or staff, and we do not have the procedures or any of the things that we will need in place to leave without a deal, certainly not by the end of October. I will be fascinated to hear how the Minister thinks we will leave.

The hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster said one thing that really struck me: she pleaded that service to nation, not political ambition, should drive decision making as we go forward towards the end of October. I worry about that a great deal. Looking at the people who are putting themselves forward from the Conservative party to be Prime Minister, it strikes me that its members might prefer the candidate who takes the hardest position, is the most enthusiastic about leaving the EU without a deal, and promises that we will prorogue Parliament until the end of October to ensure that we get to leave without a deal.

I caution the Conservatives that that would be a disaster for the country and my constituents. I know what industrial decline looks like, and what being cavalier about these things can do to communities. They do not recover for decades, if ever. I worry about that for the country, and for the health of our democracy, too. Our democracy needs a well-functioning multiplicity of parties competing and holding each other to account. If the Tory party did that to itself, satisfied as I would be that it would be out of power for a generation, I do not think it would be the healthiest thing for our democracy. I am surprised to hear myself saying those things, but I really hope it does not elect an extreme no-deal Brexiteer to be the Prime Minister of this country. I look forward to the Minister’s response.