Deregulation Bill

Baroness Byford Excerpts

Tuesday 28th October 2014 Grand Committee

What is needed to solve this dilemma is a legal presumption in favour of extinguishment or diversion, not the “wait and see” attitude from the Government and advocated not only in the brief from the Open Spaces Society but also by the specialist working group that my noble friend referred to just now. I beg to move.

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to speak to my amendments, which are linked with that proposed by my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale. I support his amendment, but it focuses on a narrower base than mine. I must first record my family farming interests and my membership of the CLA, and the fact that we have paths across our farm. The CLA still has concerns about the Bill.

I was sorry not to be available for Second Reading, although I read Hansard with great interest. I will not make a Second Reading speech, but wish to record my support for the aims of the Bill, which brings forward sensible and proportionate measures for improving the regulatory regime in the UK.

My Amendment 17 would require councils in England to have regard to any guidance given by the Secretary of State as to the exercise of their powers. Amendment 18 would replace existing Clause 25 and define the purposes in greater detail; namely, “preventing or reducing crime”, to which my noble friend referred, and,

“ensuring the safety of any persons … preventing damage to property … preventing the ingress or egress of animals; or … protecting the natural environment”.

The stakeholder working group on unrecorded public rights of way established by Natural England consisted of 15 people, representing path users, landowners, occupiers and, importantly, local authorities. Much consensus was achieved. The group’s work has been immensely important in the bringing forward of the proposals in the Bill, but one or two items on which there was agreement were not included.

As a result of this work, the Government produced guidance, which has been placed in the Library. However, the particular detail encompassed by my two amendments has not been included in the Bill. Why was this? I understand that the proposals were agreed by the stakeholder working group, which accepted that the guidance should be statutory so that authorities would have to take it into account in their decision-making process. However, I am not clear on that.

The view of the stakeholder working group was that rights of way are so complex that it is important to make them easier for everyone to understand. The complexity leads to different applications of the rules and different interpretations by local authorities. Guidance should be applied fairly, consistently and impartially, with the aim of making regulation less burdensome. Some might argue that my amendments increase burdens but I humbly suggest that a clearer direction should reduce costs and burdens. There would be less doubt because interpretation would be clearly stated in the Bill. I am also aware that some authorities are overwhelmed by the large number of outstanding claims with which they have to deal. We need to make it easier for their decision-making. I support my noble friend’s amendment.

[Lord Rooker]

My Lords, we did not spend a lot of time in the Joint Committee on this because we were not adding things to the Bill. We made recommendations relating to further clauses, which I will not go into. I have been a regular walker in the Lake District for the past 30 years. One of my greatest regrets is that I did not discover the Lake District until I was 45. However, I would never claim that enjoyment of the countryside and the open air, and walking in the Fells, entitles me to go through someone’s garden alongside their private home. There can be no justification for a walker, a person enjoying the country, making that claim. Because of the route that a path may take—sometimes they go through a private garden—you sometimes see a sign that asks walkers not to use a child’s swing and says that if they do, they do so at their own peril. There cannot be an argument to do that.

I was involved in a case about a path being moved. The cost of moving a path a small number of yards—or metres if we are in Europe—is enormous. I cannot see that that cost can justifiably be put on the owner. It is a public good to move a path. In some ways, I am sympathetic to the principle behind the amendment, although putting it in the Bill is asking for trouble. Perhaps we need another stakeholder working group. The one relating to this Bill was admirably chaired by Ray Anderson, who seems to have done an incredibly good job getting a consensus.

By and large, there is a case for change. The Government’s view should not be, “Oh well, this is on the landowner”. It is not quite like that, particularly when you are in the Fells, which is the only area I know in some detail but it may be different elsewhere. However, it does not alter the fact that things change as regards rights of way. A path can be diverted, and the joy of the countryside and the open air can be maintained. My view is that you cannot make a claim about the right to go through a person’s garden. I am not making that claim as a walker. My claim is to access to the countryside. Therefore, there should be movement on this issue but it would be best for it not to be in this Bill.

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In the light of those concerns, we have concluded that we cannot rely on stakeholder agreement around such a proposal, and that pressing ahead with it would put stakeholder consensus at risk. We believe that the combined effect of the right to apply and the new guidance will offer the prospect of a real improvement in the position of those people experiencing problems with a public right of way across their property, and that we should evaluate how the measures work out in practice before seeking to legislate further—for example, through this amendment. On the basis of what I have said, I hope that I have persuaded my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Baroness Byford]

Before my noble friend responds to the Minister, I wonder if I might raise two issues with him. I thank him for his full response to my two amendments. Do I understand the Minister to say now that the stakeholder working group has not agreed with the two amendments that I tabled? My understanding was that they had been agreed to, and it is important that we have on the record whether or not they were. I do not wish to embarrass him, but from the inference of that he then went on to say that further discussions would take place because this had not been totally agreed. I am a little lost.

Perhaps while the Minister is thinking about that, because I will not get another chance later in the Bill, I thank everyone who has contributed. In an ideal world we would all want the best, and that should be done by agreement and by making things possible, but clearly at times they are not possible and some of the examples we have been given clearly reflect that. However, I would hate to think that we were not tackling an issue that had actually been agreed. If there has been some misunderstanding, perhaps the Minister would come back at a later stage and clarify that for us. In my opinion, it is slightly concerning that at the end of the day we are not clear exactly what has happened.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am sorry if I was not clear. With great respect to my noble friend, I ask her, once she has read what I said in Hansard, might we have a discussion after today? Perhaps that would be helpful.

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Moved by

[Baroness Byford]

19: Schedule 7, page 104, line 4, at end insert—
“(c) after subsection (5A) insert—“(5B) The modifications which may be made by an order under subsection (2) must be made within a period of one year from the date an owner deposits a map and statement under section 31(6) of the Highways Act 1980.(5C) An application made by a person under subsection (5) must be made within a period of one year from the date on which the owner deposited a map and statement under section 31(6) of the Highways Act 1980.””

[Baroness Byford]

My Lords, I want to make clear that this is where the stakeholder working group and my amendments do not necessarily agree. My understanding on the other one was that there was consensus but we will return to that next time. These probing amendments look at two issues; namely, time limits and resources. Amendment 19 proposes that there should be a time limit of one year from the date on which the owner deposits a map and a statement under Section 31(6) of the Highways Act 1980. The amendment would set out time limits for claims and would reflect the position that is taken with regard to village greens, for which claims must be made within a year of the use being stopped or challenged. This also applies to Amendment 21, which would be inserted into the Highways Act 1980.

As regards the time limit to bring user claims under Amendment 21, the Highways Act requires that a claim should be made based on the use which has taken place immediately before the use was challenged. It was not anticipated that the wording might permit claims to be brought based on periods of use which were alleged to have occurred decades previously.

Amendment 20 deals with costs and fees, which were spoken about as regards earlier amendments today. Where a claim of a right of way is made, even if vexatious or spurious, the landowner, if he wishes to defend the claim, will incur significant costs. It is not unusual for a landowner to have costs of several thousands of pounds, making a defence of a claim impossible for those with smallholdings or those who fear that they will not be successful. However, the claimant’s costs are borne not by the claimant but by the public purse.

Amendment 22 looks at user evidence and tries to deal with spurious claims. It requires a witness to complete their own statement and then sign a statement of truth. I think that all Members of this House would assume a statement carries that commitment of truth. The stakeholder working group recognises the importance of ensuring high-quality evidence in claims for rights of way to reduce burdens on individuals and authorities. Should this amendment be accepted, I believe that overall it would reduce costs and burdens for individuals and for society.

I know that many authorities have outstanding claims and it would be helpful if the Minister had an idea of the total number of such claims which local authorities are having to cope with. I believe that in Warwickshire there are more than 100. As the amendment does not apply to the modification already lodged with local authorities for investigation and registration, I invite the Minister to reflect on this question as I may well want to expand on it when we come to later stages of the Bill. It is a case of trying to make sure that we move the proposals forward in the Bill, and I again put on the record that I am pleased to welcome it. A lot of good work has taken place but the questions of costs and of a time limit are still undefined. I beg to move.

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[Baroness Byford]

My Lords, I thank my noble friends for their contributions to this debate, the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, for his very practical look at the amendments that I tabled, and my noble friend Lord Deben for challenging the Minister on the issue of it surely not being right that it might take years. I shall read very carefully what the Minister has said because I value his experience and his responses, but I am not really a happy bunny, if I may put it that way. I should like to clarify again that these were considered by the working group. They were not agreed by the working group and I have not suggested that they were, but the issue has been raised and the discussions are ongoing. Even those within the working group who did not feel inclined to support them understood that there was an issue that needed to be debated.

I am just hopeful that between now and Report we may be able to get further enlightenment on some of the issues that I have raised. Certainly the whole question of cost, not only to the individual farmer but to the local authorities, is something that we need to keep at the back of our minds because local authorities are clearly stretched with trying to carry out their statutory regulations and responsibilities on so many different issues.

While I accept much of what the Minister has said, I need to read it very carefully. I am happy to withdraw my amendments but I think I shall be returning to it. At this stage, though, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 19 withdrawn.